Are Drakons superior beings?

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AuthorTopic: Are Drakons superior beings?
Infiltrator
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M:
quote:
Debatable. One drakon (Blaze) is able to control them. The rest are only able to point them in the right direction (And that takes many casualties)

Well, no, it's not debatable as to whether Drakons can control the Unbound. It's revealed consistently that they indeed can exert a significant measure of control over the Unbound. Their control is not absolute, but neither is a parent's control over their child.

Whether the Drakons can control the Unbound is not in question. How much control they can exert apparently depends on the individual Drakon, with A. Blaze being the most skilled.

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Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
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Okay. Apparently, I got the wrong impression from what I've read on this thread (assuming you're correct, of course). While it is always worth mentioning that Monarch was one man in a basement and thus not the best that the Shapers could pull out, I will concede that the drakons as a whole are somewhat better at shaping than Monarch. (Although whether a lone drakon could make the Unbound from a basement is still in question.)

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Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, April 1 2007 07:00
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quote:
Morior:
Could you provide a quote?
quote:
Stillness:
quote:
Thuryl:
It's worth keeping in mind that the game says this before the PC can have access to the Sealed Catacombs, so the PC doesn't yet know the full extent of Monarch's skill at that stage.
Very much worth mentioning - good point!
That's the second time someone has called me a liar and been totally wrong.
quote:
Waylander:
It's revealed consistently that they indeed can exert a significant measure of control over the Unbound.
No. You're making stuff up again. They have great difficulty controlling them even with Akhari Blaze, and even then, they are only able to lead them in the right direction before they totally run amok. Is this the "significant measure of control" you speak of?

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Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
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Mor:
quote:

Okay. Apparently, I got the wrong impression from what I've read on this thread (assuming you're correct, of course). While it is always worth mentioning that Monarch was one man in a basement and thus not the best that the Shapers could pull out,

Quite the contrary! Due to his excessive canister usage, and obvious experience, Monarch was perhaps the best that humanity as a whole had to offer.

Answer this simple question. Have you seen any humans, apart from Barzhal and Trajkov, demonstrate the same level of power observed in Monarch? Does the average Shaper possess the ability to make creations such as the Titan, or the Unbound?

Due to their canister induced genetic superiority (and to a lesser extent, their innate resourcefulness), Monarch, Barzhal and Trajkov are exceptional examples of an inferior species.

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quote:
The fact that rebellion exist is because they made creations they couldn't control why would they create something superpowerful that they couldn't control?
That proves that Drakons are as skilled as Shapers. If Shapers were superior in skill(and they have more resources) they could create something stronger and controlable.
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PC: "There are three sorts of Unbound?"
Warmaster Karikiss: "Yesss. One for focused fire. One to spread damage over an area. And one for pacification, to interfere with foesss. All three will be present."


I know some of us like variety. Just a reminder that it was three creations used to save the rebellion and finally start pushing the shapers back. I think we've all ignored this important detail. The shapers have three new creations and the drakons answer with three and come out on top. In the rebel ending the drakons are said to be now "equal in power" to their former masters and oppressors. Whether you love or hate the shapers, you have to admit that there's a certain poetic justice to the fact that creations that they tried to wipe out make them turn tail and drop their shaping restrictions.

I still find the drakons arrogance and cold-heartedness repulsive. They only get worse once they start winning. It actually makes me start to lean towards them being inferior. At the same time they have matched the shapers through determination and tactical and scientific brilliance - that can't be taken from them. The PC marvels at the beauty, power, and efficiency of the unbound, calling them "very well designed" and "fantastic products of the shaping art." I don't see how anyone can realistically call the drakons programmed machines or animals at this point. I do hope the fifth game will see some of them start to question their morality.

Emp please minimize the facts now. Maybe you could point out for us how the drakons lack creativity or something.
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Stillness, that was a fantastic point about the three types of Unbound.

I agree that the Drakons tend to be cold-hearted, but only because the situation forces them to be so. Leadership is a heavy burden, and sometimes you have sacrifice your own soundness of mind for the greater good. All generals in any war are sometimes forced to regard their soldiers as 'chess pieces', and consider committing ethically questionable actions in order to obtain victory (ie. The firebombing/nuking of Japan).

[ Monday, April 02, 2007 23:09: Message edited by: Suspicious Vlish ]

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quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

I agree that the Drakons tend to be cold-hearted, but only because the situation forces them to be so.
You never have to be cold-hearted or arrogant. I recognize the situation they're in and the abuse they've suffered, but that's not enough reason to behave as they do. Shapers are just as bad, but not all humans. We need to see a softer side from them like we do from humans, serviles, and even drayks. They need a Khyryk or a Shorass. But, I guess if they were able to defeat the shapers without being as self-centered one might be forced to conclude they were superior, then the game wouldn't be as much fun. There would be no moral dilemma. As it stands, you have to choose between evils.
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Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
No. You're making stuff up again. They have great difficulty controlling them even with Akhari Blaze, and even then, they are only able to lead them in the right direction before they totally run amok. Is this the "significant measure of control" you speak of?
No, it's clear that Akhari Blaze has them under tight control:

quote:
With the guidance of Akhari Blaze, the Unbound are able to cross rebel lands with minimal difficulties. The power and madness of the new creations are unable to compete with his total resolve.
Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Morior:
Could you provide a quote?
quote:
Stillness:
quote:
Thuryl:
It's worth keeping in mind that the game says this before the PC can have access to the Sealed Catacombs, so the PC doesn't yet know the full extent of Monarch's skill at that stage.
Very much worth mentioning - good point!
That's the second time someone has called me a liar and been totally wrong.

Somehow I missed this. Just in case anyone is fooled here this is what he said happened:

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.
It has already been stated (and you've already acknowledged) that this quote is meaningless.

I don't recall anyone saying this quote was meaningless and I certainly never acknowledged any such thing. It has great meaning! It shows that much skill went into making the unbound and that the drakons are highly skilled at shaping. I say that a few sentences down in the same post he pulled my quote from. It doesn't even make sense that i would reuse the quote if I thought it was meaningless.
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There are three types of Unbound? This I did not know. Answer this question, though. How much difference is there between the three types? Or are they the same thing, just with different attack forms? (Now watch me be completely wrong and they be completely different.)

Also, to answer your question, no, you have not met anyone superior to Monarch, Barzahl, or Trajkov. You also have not met the shaper council. I realize that this is pure conjecture, but it's also only guesswork whether Monarch is stronger than the council.

And lastly, could you provide a quote showing that the drakons can control the Unbound without Blaze?

[ Tuesday, April 03, 2007 11:12: Message edited by: Morior ]

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Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, April 1 2007 07:00
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Stillness, while the quote is still not meaningless that your character has still not seen the Titan or Monarch's upper level creations severely weakens the impact and degree of meaning .

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Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Morior:

There are three types of Unbound?
Why, yesssssss, warm-blooded fleshy one.

IMAGE(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/synergy67/10-NorthforgeCitadel.jpg)

-S-

[ Tuesday, April 03, 2007 11:43: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
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2 things
First the creation of the unbound do not make the Drakon society supieor. Thats like saying the fact the USA created more an better nukes makes us supeior to everone else.

Second the unbound is a product of the Rebellion not the Drakons alone. If you read the trakovite ending where you destroy their equipment but still make one generation of Unbound you find out that the drakons can't make another generation because the rest of the rebillion refuses to help them. The reason you see mostly drakons and and few serviles is because the drakons kicked everyone else out when it came close to completion (rember Greta telling me that somewhere). So to be more accruate the unbound is the creation of the serviles, drayks, and possibly a few rebel humans.

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quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

Second the unbound is a product of the Rebellion not the Drakons alone. If you read the trakovite ending where you destroy their equipment but still make one generation of Unbound you find out that the drakons can't make another generation because the rest of the rebillion refuses to help them.
No they didn't; they refused to let them. There's an important difference. The human rebellion didn't even know of the Unbound's existence until they were almost complete.

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Ooh, pretty picture. (No sarcasm intended).

And just so there are no misunderstandings, I wasn't questioning the existence of three types of Unbound. That was simply a new fact to me.

And from the picture, they look very similar (apart from attack styles). I still say that three completely different creations show more variety than three creations that are basically the same thing wih different attacks. But at least the drakons have some variety.

[ Tuesday, April 03, 2007 14:06: Message edited by: Morior ]

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prehaps someone could provide a qoute I read it as the Drakons want to remake but couldn't because they need the rest of the rebellion. I never said that h umans where involved I said it might be a possibilty. I'm pretty sure dryaks and serviles where involved.

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The quote you are thinking of (something along the lines of "and the drakons discovered that they still needed the rest of the rebellion") is in there, but it's not directly attached to the Unbound. They needed the humans and serviles for other, unstated reasons (probably to guard and run all the lands the rebels controlled) but not for the Unbound.

Dikiyoba.
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considering that their is a picture of a serivle mechanic (has some type of tool in his hand) and an angry looking drakon glowering over a ruined creatiion vat to me at least it imples that they need the rest of the rebellion for their skill (directly in junction with the unbound). But lets for the sake of argument say they are not directly related the unbound would not exist with out the rest of the rebellion. Plus you underestimate the rest of the rebellion. Also noone has confronted my other point how is claim the drakons creation of the unbound make them superior different then if the USA claimed they where superior just because they had more nukes. If I made such a claim about the US ya'll flame me off the forums.

[ Tuesday, April 03, 2007 19:00: Message edited by: Lord Safey ]

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quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

Stillness, while the quote is still not meaningless that your character has still not seen the Titan or Monarch's upper level creations severely weakens the impact and degree of meaning .
I think "severely" is too strong, but I agree.

quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

the creation of the unbound do not make the Drakon society supieor.
Agreed. The point (at least mine) is to show their great skill to anyone thinking they're inferior.

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Emp please minimize the facts now. Maybe you could point out for us how the drakons lack creativity or something.
quote:
Originally written by Morior:

I still say that three completely different creations show more variety than three creations that are basically the same thing wih different attacks.
Hey, this is not your job! :mad: Seriously though, what's your point? They are not basically the same. They do three different things to overwhelm the enemy. I guess you're saying they're the same because of their form, yes? What does variety have to do with war anyway? The idea is efficiency. Any engineer will tell you that they want to use the same materials and resources for as many different jobs as possible. Making something completely new uses energy and is to be avoided. The results speak for themselves. The three drakon creations cause the shapers to lose ground that they don't regain even when they drop restrictions.

quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

considering that their is a picture of a serivle mechanic (has some type of tool in his hand) and an angry looking drakon glowering over a ruined creatiion vat to me at least it imples that they need the rest of the rebellion for their skill (directly in junction with the unbound).
The drakons are the brains of the operation. I can't see how the guy tightening bolts on the incubation vats matters in this discussion.
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quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

considering that their is a picture of a serivle mechanic (has some type of tool in his hand) and an angry looking drakon glowering over a ruined creatiion vat to me at least it imples that they need the rest of the rebellion for their skill (directly in junction with the unbound).
quote:
Orignally written by Stillness The drakons are the brains of the operation. I can't see how the guy tightening bolts on the incubation vats matters in this discussion.
Well apparntly the drakons can't tighten their own bolts and they desperatly need them tighten. Since what they want(creating a second generation of Unbound) to get done is of extreme importance to them and they might be willing to do a mundane task that is normally beneath them. What ever that drakon wants that servile to do,he wants it done desperatly, the servile refuses to do it, and the drakon is incabale of doing it. Do not underestimate techincal support (I've noticed in the game npc serviles normally are the best mechanics)

[ Tuesday, April 03, 2007 22:10: Message edited by: Lord Safey ]

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quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

If I made such a claim about the US ya'll flame me off the forums.
"Ya'll" is incorrect. The word means "you all," which means the "ou" is being dropped. The correct spelling is "Y'all."

Apparently, Drakons' claws won't allow them to hold a wrench. Tool use is one of the primary abilities which define higher life, and for Drakons, this ability is seriously curbed. Drakons are dramatically inferior because they can't use a hammer.
Posts: 37 | Registered: Tuesday, March 27 2007 07:00
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Interesting. So a human with Parkinson's disease is inferior to a healthy human being? A left hander in the early 1900's would have been inferior to a right hander, because all of the utilities were crafted with right handers in mind?

Drakons have been observed to have some ability to use their claws. They can write (clumsily), and they can make canisters.

Perhaps the problem here is that there aren't any Drakon sized tools.

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quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

A left hander in the early 1900's would have been inferior to a right hander, because all of the utilities were crafted with right handers in mind?
Righty propaganda, oppressor.
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I'm a lefty ;)

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