Are Drakons superior beings?

Pages

AuthorTopic: Are Drakons superior beings?
Canned
Member # 8014
Profile #75
Gah!
Space out your "paragraphs" when you make long posts because otherwise it is a bright screen with a glob of symbols.
I can still read it but I have to concentrate.

--------------------
I can transform into almost anything, though not sanity.

My brother tried to type something here. I just erased it.
Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #76
IFM-
quote:
Edit -humans and I are superior to Drakons, bunnies, muffins, and Nalyd.

Pull that again and Nalyd will go all TM on your ass.

If Waylander had posted again after ET counteracted him, this post might have a redeeming point. Ah, well, can't be perfect.

--------------------
May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Canned
Member # 8014
Profile #77
quote:
Originaly by Nalyd the Dead
Pull that again and Nalyd will go all TM on your ass.
What do you mean by that?

[ Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:37: Message edited by: Infernal Flamming Muffin ]

--------------------
I can transform into almost anything, though not sanity.

My brother tried to type something here. I just erased it.
Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #78
Terror's Martyr is a banned oldbie known for his troll-flaming.

--------------------
May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Canned
Member # 8014
Profile #79
Well, I will stop so that I don't sink to your level...

...just kiding. No TMing anyones ***.

--------------------
I can transform into almost anything, though not sanity.

My brother tried to type something here. I just erased it.
Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #80
quote:
Well, if I have to repeat myself, again, I was talking about the entrance to the Radient College, which is described as being overly eleborate. Barzahl, from the moment he arrived in Drypeak, was preparing for his inevitible war with the Shapers. While preparing, he still made time for art.

I'm hesitate to qualify that as artwork. If 'elaborate' buildings used for practical purposes qualify as artwork, may I point out that the Drakon Council room in GF4 was described as 'luxurious'? Also note that Drakons have a tendency to wear jewelery. This strongly suggests that they are aesthetic beings.

quote:
[A Drakon's behaviourism, IQ and EQ apparently resembles that of a human: No they don't, not at all. What makes you say that?

The question here is: What Drakon behaviourisms differ from lesser beings? Drakons, like humans, communicate and function socially in a manner similiar to humans. Drakons, like humans, have a complex political structure, including the cloak and dagger scheming. Drakons, like humans, are capable of arrogance, fear, love (suggested by the fact that they do breed naturally, instead of always Shaping new Drakons) and empathy.

quote:
No they don't. Drayks and serviles constantly complain that the drakons care little for either race.

Then why would Ghaldring mention that he would use the Unbound to shelter the Rebel creations/humans in the mountains? If he had no empathy for the lesser races, why would he make such an irrelevant comment?

quote:
Again, no. Usually, when anything is improved by shaping, emotion is the first thing to go.

It's been demonstrated time and time again that individuals who are Shaped are still capable of empathy (Lilita, Trajkov). Ghaldring (and his fellow drakons) also show empathy and respect towards his fallen rival.

quote:
Will your inaccuracies ever stop? How were canisters improved? They were the same damn things.

Aura of Flames canisters were not present in GF1...

quote:

As for the geneforge, the original human geneforge made you character (or Trajkov or Goettsch) into a demi-god,

Not really. It increased all of your stats by 7.

[quote
the drakon geneforges merely make them into ur-drakons.
[/quote]
Ur-Drakons are significantly superior to Drakons. After using the Geneforge, Easss and Akhari Blaze are exceedingly powerful.

quote:

However, when humans abandon the need to control creations, like Shaper Monarch did, they make the most powerful creations ever seen: the Titan.

I didn't find the Titan that difficult, when compared to some of the creations in the Taker/Rebel dumping grounds.

May I also point out the Unbound. Not only can the Drakons create such magnificent beings, they also have some measure of control over them. In fact, Drakons are the only creations capable of controlling and directing the Unbound.

quote:
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:
Barzhal conceived the idea of the eyebeast, but he wasn't the first to create one.
Does it say this somewhere?


Yep, in the Radiant College.

[ Saturday, March 17, 2007 18:32: Message edited by: Waylander ]

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Cartographer
Member # 995
Profile #81
quote:

Again, no. It's been demonstrated time and time again that individuals who are Shaped are still capable of empathy (Lilita, Trajkov). Try again.

rare exceptions, and noted as such.

quote:
So Aura of Flames canisters were present in GF1? And Kill canisters?
there were canisters for every spell present in the game. there still are. it's like comparing a cd with version 1 of some software to a cd with version 2 of the program and saying, "wow, cds have gotten better".

arguably, the introduction of canister side-effects in geneforge 2 means that the canister technology has gotten noticably worse. (but in actuality probably represents JV making the game closer represent his original vision).
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #82
Ahhh, Waylander you did not adress any of my points! (I'm the last post on page 3). Or maybe you just fear the blinding light of truth in your bubble.

--------------------
"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 8165
Profile #83
Drakonsss are superior beingsss,i have changed my mind,we will stay arrogant,and powerful.
Long live the rebellion! long live Akhari Blaze,warmaster Kariss,Ghaldring,and the rest...if i missed any...but yeah.

--------------------
R.R
Posts: 179 | Registered: Friday, February 23 2007 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #84
Yes, we are superior beings. But that doesn't necessarily mean we need to exclude the lesser races. What they do need to realize is that WE are at the top of the pecking order...

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #85
By the way, I wonder if the posters here who condemn the Drakons for unleashing the Unbound support America's nuclear bombing of Japan, or the indiscriminate napalming of the Vietnamese forests? What about the indiscriminate bombing of German cities during WWII?

What about Israel's devastation of Lebanon? I know that quite a few posters here are Zionists, and use the "Well, Israel is under constant attack from enemies who want to destroy her, and annihilate the Jewish people!" as justification for excessive force against the neighbouring Arabs.

Hmmm, when your very right to exist is in question, it seems that acts of gross and excessive violence are quite OK. You'd have to be an idiot to promote limited warfare when not just your very way of life, but the survival of your species, is on the line.

Quite simply, I take great delight in releasing the Unbound for the Drakons, to rip the Shapers and their weak allies from the face of the earth. The decadent Shapers and their miserable allies get exactly what has been coming to them all along... decimation.

How dare they deny such mighty and glorious creations such as the Drayk, Eyebeast and Drakon the very right to exist! Because they are... too potentially dangerous...

That's absurd. Would you round up and genocide all of the mutants in the 'X-Men' world because their powers made them potentially dangerous? How is such a solution any more ethical than the Drakons releasing the Unbound on the Shapers and their sympathizers?

And by what right do the Shapers demand the genocide of a species? Was their a plebiscite to determine whether humans should parley with Drakons? Are the Shapers the democratically elected representatives of the humans and the creations?

No, they aren't. They are essentially an aristocracy who maintains power by monopolizing Shaper knowledge. Why should only their opinions matter when it comes to Shaping?
Does only a doctor's opinion matter when it comes to political decisions about the status of Healthcare? Does only a scientist's opinion matter when it comes to political decisions about scientific issues (global warming?).

Quite the contrary! In fact, scientific and medical bodies are often regulated by people separate from the field.
I don't see that in Geneforge. What I see is the Shapers monopolizing a mighty craft, when they have no right to do so.

Just a thought for the people who condemn the Drakons as 'war mongers'. I disagree.

As the (now adapted) old saying goes: "The Drakons make establishing peace difficult, but the Shapers make it impossible." Had the Shapers merely allowed the Drayks and Drakons the right to exist, and the serviles the right to autonomy, then there would be no need for warfare.

However, as the matter stands, the Drakons/Drayks need to fight for survival, and now that the serviles realize that they can function as autonomous beings, they can no longer remain in servitude. They must throw off their chains.

Quite simply, their hand is forced. The only other options (apart from releasing the Unbound) for the Drakons and Drayks is to (literally) commit suicide, or refuse to release the Unbound and commit metaphorical suicide as the Shapers continue their genocide.

Remember, the construction and releasing of the Unbound is ESSENTIAL for the survival of the Rebellion, and hence the Drakon and Drayk species. The Drakons know this, and every ending in which the Unbound are not released involves the smashing of the resistance, and the genocide of the Drayks, Drakons, and free creations.
If you were a Drakon, a Drayk, or a free creation, would you accept such a fate?

I see releasing the Unbound as a matter of self-defense. If I were a Jew under Nazi oppression, I would use any means necessary to preserve my life, and the brilliance of my race.

As for the Drakons demonstrating a 'lack of empathy'. No, I don't agree that Drakons (as a race in general) lack empathy towards the lesser races.

Yes, they view them as inferior, but that doesn't mean that they are incapable of experiencing empathy for the lesser races. A human views a dog as an inferior species, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't experience empathy for the dog in question. Ghaldring, despite viewing lesser species as inferior, mentions that he wants to protect the lesser races in the mountains.

As for arrogance. Yes, Drakons are arrogant. What of it? They are the spearhead of the Rebellion. Most of the Rebellion's victories are attributable to them. They created and can control the most powerful Creations in existence (the Unbound). They are primarily responsible for making Shaping available to the Rebels. Modified serviles and humans wouldn't exist if the Drakons hadn't leaked the knowledge to them.

The Drakons are arrogant towards lesser species, but unlike the Shapers, they have yet to advocate their genocide. I hear no talk of the Drakons wishing to eliminate Drayks, Eyebeasts, Geneforged humans, or free thinking serviles, merely for existing. Quite the contrary. Even the human/servile hating Drakon Salassar merely wants to break ties with the human half of the Rebellion. He doesn't want to eliminate them.

If I were a Drayk, an Eyebeast, a servile, or a Geneforged human, I'd take Drakon arrogance over Shaper genocide any day. I'd rather tolerate a bad attitude than non-existence.

What really aggravates me is how the humans and creations condemn the Drakons for releasing the Unbound. It is precisely because of the Drakons and Unbound that the Rebels are able to avoid liquidation by the Shapers, and remain in the mountains, where they are not slaughtered in the front lines.

Because of the Drakons, Unbound are in the front lines, not sapient beings such as serviles and humans. And what thanks do the Drakons get? NONE. Yes, it's very easy to condemn the Drakons decision when the threat of complete elimination and torture aren't hanging over your head, and you're snug and cozy, far away from the front lines.
I'm sure that if the Shapers were storming the gates of Quess-Esss, the Rebels would be begging for the Unbound to be completed and released.

Sorry for the long post. It wasn't intended to be so lengthy, but I think I got a little carried away. -

[ Saturday, March 17, 2007 19:17: Message edited by: Waylander ]

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #86
Onyx, shut up. This is a serious debate. Add something meaningful or spam somewhere else.

Waylander, the Unbound cannot be controlled by anyone. At the most, they can be sheperded to a particular area, and even that takes casualties.

Aura of Flames canisters were not present in G1 because the spell hadn't been invented yet.

Ghaldring uses meaningless propaganda against the lesser creations because he doesn't have anythin better.

Love is not required for breeding, by any stretch of the imagination. It is simply indignation at being Shaped. They probably get some pleasure out of it, too.

Luxurious doesn't mean artistic. Decadence during wartime is a sample of Drakonic inferiority.

--------------------
May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 8165
Profile #87
There was a drakon (reevas) i believe...and some female Ur-drakon...i forgot her name...they seemed to be...affectionate...or interested in eachother...talk to her if you kill reevas to see her reaction,you'll see what i mean.

--------------------
R.R
Posts: 179 | Registered: Friday, February 23 2007 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #88
quote:
Also note that Drakons have a tendency to wear jewelery. This strongly suggests that they are aesthetic beings.
There is a difference between creating works of art like the Radient College entrance and 'collecting shiney things,' which I will admit drakons like to do.
quote:
What Drakon behaviourisms differ from lesser beings?
They are single minded. A human can be anything he wishes, a farmer, a merchant, an artist, anything. Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed. That severely limits the potential these beings have. They can be fighters, or they can be hoarders, that is it. They can never hope to amount to anything more because it would be beyond what they were programmed for.
quote:
Then why would Ghaldring mention that he would use the Unbound to shelter the Rebel creations/humans in the mountains?
Ghaldring is a liar. He'll say anything to prove his point. Does it even make sense for the Unbound to protect something? It was very clear that they blindly destroy, and are incapable of much else.
quote:
Ghaldring (and his fellow drakons) also show empathy and respect towards his fallen rival.
Yeah, telling you to go raid Salisaar's tomb for his skin was really respectful of him.
quote:
Not really. It increased all of your stats by 7.
You have to look beyond these numbers at the endings. Users of the human geneforge are able to build empires single-handedly. Users of drakon geneforges can barely hold their own despite their numbers.

By the way, I searched the Radient College texts for whatever you were refering to, and all I found were these two quotes: "he (Barzahl) developed the gazer and the eyebeast from the basic vlish template," and "I am a gazer. My kind was created by Barzahl. We serve the Barzites." Now, what were you talking about?

--------------------
You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #89
Emp, I don't have the time for an indepth reply at the moment, but I'm 100% sure that the Gazers were first created by the Drakons. Barzhal thought of the design, but the Drakons brought it into being. I remember an eyebeast in GF 2 mentioning this (perhaps the Eyebeast in Radiant College, or the one who judges you prior to entering Rising).

Can any other posters here find the quote I'm referring to?

I know that it exists, because I remember having it thrust in my face several years ago when I was arguing for Barzite superiority.

[ Saturday, March 17, 2007 19:22: Message edited by: Waylander ]

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #90
Waylander, in your edits, you are moving from a discussion on species into a political discussion.

I found a quote you might be refering to, the gazer South of the city of Rising says "My design was first created by Barzahl. I was perfected and created in the mountains of the Takers." This does not say that the drakons created the first gazer, only the one you are talking to. Although the wording is a bit questionable here, the fact that so many other people say Barzahl created the gazers would still lead me to believe Barzahl made the first one.

Edit: In my searches, I also noticed Barzahl created the war-bred serviles. Another point for Barzahl!

[ Saturday, March 17, 2007 20:03: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

--------------------
You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #91
G2:

THOT-THA THE GAZER:
"My design was first created by Barzahl. I was perfected and created in the mountains of the Takers, and my eye's path led me back to here."
"Barzahl's eyes saw the spark, the idea. But it was the Takers who created me. They are mighty."
"The Takers have ones who can shape, and marvelously. But the one who made me was not a Shaper."
Thot-Tha flinches back. You can issue powerful commands too. Finally, it says, "I can not say the name. But I can tell you I was made by a drakon of the Takers."
("No gazers will be made here?")
"Not yet. Only the mighty Takers can make Gazers."

FENEN IN RADIANT COLLEGE:
("How have you improved vlish?")
"That was Barzahl's work. He developed the gazer and the eyebeast from the basic vlish template. We haven't made many yet. But soon."
("I let out the rotghroth. It attacked me.")
He sighs. "Of course. Control issues. As always. The Takers are so much ahead of us with that creation."

MELANCON EYE:
("Why do you hate Syros so much?")
"He made me."

LEARNED THANI:
"Before the war, Takers and Barzites worked together. They made new creations. Strong creations. They were concerned only for pure power, forgetting about wisdom, about control."
"Through this process, strong creations were made. The drakon. The gazer. The rotghroth."

ROGUE GAZER:
("Who created you?")
"The fool drakons. I was shaped under the claws of Akkat. I was sent here to be their guard. Their lackey. Their control was too weak when I got far away."

TESSERA EYE:
"We gazers are very new. Only a few of us exist. The drakons are the only ones who can make us now, and they have not fully explored our power."

AKKAT'S LAB NOTES:
"The book describes all of the failed experiments with drakons, gazers, and rotghroths. Thus, it is a very long book. Making creations of such power is a very unpredictable and dangerous process."

ZEZKAI EYE:
"I am an eyebeast. Rhakkus has created me."

Also, the chain of creators is as follows:
Barzahl / Rhakkus -> Sith -> Easss -> Ghaldring -> etc.
Barzahl didn't create Rhakkus, but he transformed him from a drayk into a drakon.

I have searched around a bit, and I can't find anything saying Barzahl or any Barzites came up with the plan for rotghroths. They might well have, or it might have been a collaboration between the Barzites and Takers.

Edit: It's also worth pointing out that two of the Taker researchers/leaders -- Rhakkus and Akkat -- had been working with Barzahl from the time they met on Sucia onwards. So it is tough to tease apart the contributions of one or the other faction. Barzahl was certainly ambitious and inventive, and the Takers seem to have had greater ability to actually Shape stuff, for some reason. But beyond that, it's hard to say.

[ Saturday, March 17, 2007 20:16: Message edited by: 227 Chitrachballons ]

--------------------
Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #92
Well, Waylander, again ignored to respond to my post so I will go on without repeating myself since I feel he just can't refute my points.

Waylander, (fyi) I find the dropping of the two atomic bombs on Japan horrible acts that should never have been done (all relatives of my family who were still in Japan in the time were in Hiroshima and were never found). Same with the firestorm at Dresdon (or whatever the name is), read Slaughterhouse-Five. I also am not a Zionist, I will not judge these people just because of their religion, there have been attrosities on both sides.

I would like to reitterate the point that ET and I share, every frickin building that you see is/was built by serviles almost in slave-like fashion . Where is the Drakons' empathy there? Remember the town that the serviles built that the Drakons decended on and stole? You should not even attempt to paint the Drakons as anything close to empathetic because it is counter to their nature; even they would scoff at such a motion, that would make them weak, soft, almost human .

--------------------
"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Cartographer
Member # 995
Profile #93
the quote you're looking for is in the entrance to gray ghost gates:
"The pass ahead is blocked by massive stone gates. They are recently built, and they bear the marks of drakon architecture. Unadorned, huge, stone, and hastily made using magic and servile labor."

Drakon architecture is "unadorned" and "hastily made with magic and servile labor"
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #94
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I agree that Drakon claws are far clumsier than human/servile hands (it's actually mentioned in GF2 that Drayks have clumsy handwriting), but Drakons move as fast as a human, if not faster (they have 8 AP, Quick Action, and always seem to strike me first in battle...)
Yeah, I'm talking about their hands. It is one of the things that makes us what we are - nimble hands.

quote:
While it is possible for humans to match Drakons in strength and speed, they usually have to be Shaped to the Max, or a Master Master Shaper with, with apparently centuries of experience and some nice equipment.

Either way, an unexperienced Drakon is far more powerful than an unexperienced human. Analogy: A woman, with adequate training, could easily overpower the average male. However, that doesn't change the fact that men have more innate physical power than women.
I don't ever play on torment. Maybe I should for more of a challenge. But, I found drakons, like salassar and ghaldring to be fairly easy to kill. And ghaldring is shaped himself. How do you think ghaldring and salassar compare to greta, alwan, or the other agent? I find them comparable. If there is a difference it is not much. And I don't have a problem with drakons being harder to kill, IF they are. As I said both sides have strengths and weaknesses.

Why don't the drakons wear armor? It may be due to arrogance or some other lack.

quote:
As Drakons are merely improved Drayks, it stands to reason that they are capable of spell casting. They just don't bother, since teeth and their fiery breath pretty much do the job.
No it doesnt stand to reason. Improvements in one area can cost in others. If they could bless themselves, use mental abilities, or heal that would be a great advantage. They do not, it seems because they cannot.

quote:
But that doesn't somehow cheapen their achievements.
By no means. They do quite well. About like humans under pressure.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Do you really think the drakons actually helped build the places they live in? Serviles do all that work, drakons, at the most, oversee.
The narration says they do. Even if they just directed the work as you assume, then they directed that room be made for art. Honestly, you should give this one up.

quote:
Is the fact that a parrot can mimic human speech a testiment to their intelligence?
Yes it is! If they were actually capable of using and understanding grammar, then they would be peers to humanity. As it stands there is no such creature on this planet but us. In the game there is - Drakons. They struck me as no more or less intelligent than humans. Some were shallow, but not all. They feel anger, have a sense of humor (such as when the council takes on a party atmosphere after you make fun of Salassar), and mourn for their dead. By the way, I don't think Ghaldring tells you to loot his tomb. He wants you to pay your respects. He is showing honor to a fallen soldier, even though he was his enemy in life. That is not the way that insane, war-crazed, arrogant, animals behave.

quote:
Everything the drakons know, they learned from Zachary and Barzahl.
Do you have any skills? Did you invent them or did you learn by observation? You can't teach a dolphin or a chimpanzee to erect a citadel.

quote:
Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed. That severely limits the potential these beings have. They can be fighters, or they can be hoarders, that is it. They can never hope to amount to anything more because it would be beyond what they were programmed for.

Where do you get this from? Are you playing the same game I'm playing?

quote:
Ghaldring is a liar. He'll say anything to prove his point. Does it even make sense for the Unbound to protect something? It was very clear that they blindly destroy, and are incapable of much else.

He strikes me as too honorable to lie like that. Greta and Litalia seem to recognize this. They trust him. He is the one that decides to be open with you and reveal that Greta is being detained. He arranges a complex series of events so as to defeat his rival while not directly killing him. He acts within his cultures laws (which are so complex that Greta gets bored trying to understand them) and manages to maintain the respect and devotion of his people. He has no problem revealing that you have been used for his purposes - to keep order and peace within the rebellion. How can you not see this?

He is not lying. The Unbound are directed by the Drakons and can be stopped by them as well. They do the job exactly as promised. I think you're just making up stuff at this point.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #95
quote:
Originally written by 227 Chitrachballons:

G2:

THOT-THA THE GAZER:
"My design was first created by Barzahl. I was perfected and created in the mountains of the Takers, and my eye's path led me back to here."
"Barzahl's eyes saw the spark, the idea. But it was the Takers who created me. They are mighty."
"The Takers have ones who can shape, and marvelously. But the one who made me was not a Shaper."
Thot-Tha flinches back. You can issue powerful commands too. Finally, it says, "I can not say the name. But I can tell you I was made by a drakon of the Takers."
("No gazers will be made here?")
"Not yet. Only the mighty Takers can make Gazers..."

Excellent post.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #96
Originally by Stillness:

quote:
If they could bless themselves, use mental abilities, or heal that would be a great advantage. They do not, it seems because they cannot.
Scourge Vodhizon (or whatever the correct spelling is) casts some sort of fear spell, and perhaps Salassar does as well, so they are capable of it. They just don't use them (probably arrogance). But then again, there are probably a lot of Shapers who have at least some skill in healing, but they never heal themselves.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Cartographer
Member # 995
Profile #97
some more random quotes:

("The Unbound are hard to control?")
"_They have a ... a tendency to attack. Anything nearby. Thisss makesss them dangerousss. Once the Shapersss are gone and western Terrestia hasss been leveled, we will absorb the Unbound and then modify them to make them more sensible._";

("How will you get them to western Terrestia if they are so unpredictable?")
"_We can control them to some extent, with great effort. Enough for the journey to Quessa-Uss, and then west._";

"As [the Unbound] enter, you can sense the will of the drakons to the south. They are exerting themselves to control the minds of their creations. It is a constant struggle, even for them. You can sense their strain."

The drakon Karikiss shouts, _Enough._ Instantly, you can sense the minds of the drakons again. They are struggling to regain control of the Unbound. But they aren't succeeding. The Unbound continue to strike at you.";
"The drakons start to grow alarmed. For a moment, you begin to worry that you are going to be trapped in here with the things. Then Karikiss shouts, _All right. Finish them._"
"You sense something else, a different energy. The Unbound stop moving. They are frozen. Then they begin to decay before your eyes. There is a foul smell. Ooze flows out of cracks in their skin. Soon, they will be dead."

"You watch, horrified, as Greta crumples to the ground. The drakons note her passing without the slightest bit of emotion. One of the heroes of the rebellion has been cut down simply to test one of their creations." (emphasis mine)

---

they can only barely control the Unbound. sometimes. Though they have a kill switch.
They feel nothing for non-Drakons.

---

Quessa-Uss:

"It all looks recently constructed, hastily built by drakons, serviles, and magic. There are empty depressions in the walls, waiting for mosaics or other artwork. The touches of luxury are waiting until after the war ends."

---

description of the Unbound:

"It is a drakon, but unlike any you have ever seen. It glows. Powerful heat radiates from it, enough that it would probably burn you if you touched it. Whoever created it filled it with all the pure, uncontrolled power they could."
"And, as with all Shaping, there was a trade-off. In return for power, they gave up sanity. They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill." (emphasis mine)
"This drakon is unbound, free of all the controls normally put on creations. It is a pure weapon, designed to unleash uncontrolled havoc wherever it is placed."

---

never does it say that the Unbound are supposed to shelter people. Ghaldring says, "_Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers._" (emphasis mine)

---

but note in the Rebel ending, the arrogance of the Drakons only increases. And there is no mention of peace to be found - only total chaotic war, with the Shaper making creations the equal of the Unbound -- now that they find their survival in question, we discover that it was only the Shaper ethics that kept them from creating beings so powerful.

---

overall, the combination of these quotes is a stalemate to the argument. Neither side is more or less powerful, and neither is more or less capable of evil and good, or of brutality and art, or of arrogance and compassion. It all comes down to the individuals.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #98
Stillness:
quote:

Yeah, I'm talking about their hands. It is one of the things that makes us what we are - nimble hands.

Ahh, ok. Yes, we're in complete agreement there. Drakon 'hands' are far clumsier than human hands. I guess you have to make a trade-off for lethal claws.

I don't think that the clumsy hands is a huge handicap for Drakons. They still can write and perform technical tasks (create canisters). Although it would still help to have servile/human technicians and scribes. Which is exactly why the humans/serviles and Drayks/Drakkons should work together.

quote:
How do you think ghaldring and salassar compare to greta, alwan, or the other agent?

Keep in mind that I fought for the Rebels, not the Shapers. There's no way in hell I would end up assisting the Shapers, given that they will no doubt execute/ostracize a 'twisted freak' such as myself.

Greta = She was ridiculously easy. Of course, I didn't kill her, but I remember her only having approximately 350hp, and a relatively weak attack. She was useless during the final battle, and always seemed to get her ass kicked by the Unbound.

Alwan = I found Alwan quite easy, but then again, he was a Guardian. No big surprise.

Miranda = I actually found Miranda quite difficult. She tore me a new hole on a few occasions. But not as many as...

"That Drakon outside Quess_Ess" = Yes, her. The Drakon guarding the gates to Quess_Ess was one tough cookie. Even though I recruited help from a nearby Drakon, it didn't stop me from getting a fireball in the face (and then, naturally, dying). At least I could take more than one hit from Miranda, but one hit from that Drakon, and I was history.

quote:
No it doesnt stand to reason. Improvements in one area can cost in others.

I was about to argue the point, but then I realized that may be right. Eyebeasts don't have the same abilities as a Vlish, despite being the improved version.

I have vague memories of several Drakons casting spells way back, but I may be wrong. Let's just say that I wouldn't be shocked if Drakons could cast spells, but just didn't bother. The jury is still out on this one, I guess.

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #99
quote:
Thot-Tha: Only the mighty Takers can make Gazers.
Tessera Eye: The drakons are the only ones who can make us now,
Ha! Liars! Tricky little creations, aren't they? Anyone who says this is lying. If you are a loyal Barzite, the instructor at the Radiant College will be kind enough to teach you how to make a gazer for a small fee. No canisters required.
quote:
Me: Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed.
Stillness: Where do you get this from?
Name one drakon that did not fit into one of these catagories.
quote:
You watch, horrified, as Greta crumples to the ground. The drakons note her passing without the slightest bit of emotion. One of the heroes of the rebellion has been cut down simply to test one of their creations.
Ooo, I like that quote. I never had Greta die on me so this is the first time I've seen it. Nice.

--------------------
You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00

Pages