Are Drakons superior beings?

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AuthorTopic: Are Drakons superior beings?
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #275
quote:
Originally written by jared:

i just killed everything
What was that you were saying about drakonian instict? ;)
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 8407
Profile #276
my mood does change fast :) :( ;) :P :rolleyes: :eek: :D :mad:

[ Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:52: Message edited by: jared ]
Posts: 27 | Registered: Thursday, March 29 2007 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 8407
Profile #277
i was 6 and given the oportunity :o :confused: :P
Posts: 27 | Registered: Thursday, March 29 2007 07:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #278
Hmmm. Nalyd agreed to no mini-modding, but polite forum etiquette should be alright.

Please tone down the graemlins. They burn our eyes out of their sockets. Double posting is rather impolite, unless you have a legitimate reason for doing it. Just use the "edit" button in the top bar where your posts are. It's considered good manners to use proper grammar and spelling, too. Other than that, have fun, leave your sanity at the door, and welcome back!

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #279
The biggest mistake quite a few posters here are making is that they examine Drakon behaviour is isolation.

There also is clear evidence of double standards. They'll condemn the Drakon's for displaying rather extreme behaviour, but turn a blind eye to that of the Shapers.

It's obvious that the majority are biased against the Drakons, because they are not humans. It's far harder to sympathize with the plight of a 'cold blooded' reptile, and far easier to condemn their so-called 'animal' behaviour.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The Shapers are, quite simply, Nazis. They engage in the routine and systematic genocide of sapient beings. It is not a huge shock that this has resulted in the Drakons being willing to resort to desperate measures in order to avoid complete obliteration.

I've noticed that several posters here have mentioned that the Unbound can't defend anything, they are just bred to attack and cause wholescale destruction. What these people fail to realize is that sometimes, the best defense is a good offense. The atomic bombs on Japan prove this point.

For those who condemn the Drakons releasing the Unbound, answer me these questions.

Do you condone America's firebombing and nuking of the Japanese mainland?
Would you have rathered to risk invasion by the Japanese Imperial Army?
Would you have rather that possibly hundreds of thousands of America troops die in a land assault?
Especially given that there is no way to know if a mainland assault would have resulted in more civilian casualties than the firebombing/nuking?

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #280
quote:
Originally written by jared:

i hope a shaper :D
I hope a shaper, too.

Stillness: Smart serviles are just as banned as drakons. Drakons allow humans to join the rebellion because humans are not single-minded. Humans are capable of seeing different sides of things, and comming to their own decisions. Hypothetically, if drakons were allowed to join the Shapers (in exchange for their loyalty they would be allowed to live out their life in peace), do you, in your opinion, think a single one would accept?

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #281
The Shapers commit genocide only when the creatures they are attacking are inherently dangerous, out of control, or horribly flawed. The point here is whether, in the Geneforge world, Drakons are superior or not. The point is not to justify or explain real-world events, no matter how morally corrupt they may be.

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #282
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Smart serviles are just as banned as drakons.
The new breed designed to spy is very smart. They are not banned.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Drakons allow humans to join the rebellion because humans are not single-minded. Humans are capable of seeing different sides of things, and comming to their own decisions.
I remember Litalia being the first to join, but I don't remember anything like what you're saying being given as the reason.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Hypothetically, if drakons were allowed to join the Shapers (in exchange for their loyalty they would be allowed to live out their life in peace), do you, in your opinion, think a single one would accept?
What do you mean by loyalty? If you mean a truce then it doesn't even have to be hypothetical. They already live at peace with humans that don't have them marked for destruction. They even seem to respect Litalia and Jared.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #283
Respect? They let the Geneforge sit stagnant, unused, and uncared for in a dusty back room of Northforge! They dismiss the human side of the Rebellion as ineffective and weak, and neglect the training of new lifecrafters even though it would mean little to no expense to them! Respect, Ha!

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Cartographer
Member # 995
Profile #284
This thread now falls under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law[/url] . two or three times.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #285
I'm not disputing the drakons have been through a lot and that their actions towards shapers be justifiable. What I question is their effectiveness as a soceity. Intellegent rebel serviles have formed soceitys that rival that of humans even though they where orgnial created to be completly depednt. Drakons have a tendency to be hermits and when they do live together they have huge wasteful political debates. No doubt humans do this as well but the amount of complaining I get from talking to Greta, Litiala and the stray drayk or two is that it is a much bigger problem for Drakons then it is for Humans or serviles. Prehaps in time if they surive they can grow to rival Humans are serviles but until then they as a soceity are inferior to Humans or even serviles.

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #286
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

The new breed designed to spy is very smart. They are not banned.
I meant independant. And I'm pretty sure you knew that.
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

They'll condemn the Drakon's for displaying rather extreme behaviour, but turn a blind eye to that of the Shapers.
Here's your problem, your comparing drakons with a specific sect of humanity. Your saying the drakons are superior to humans, and so you must look at all humans. Everything I've said has been true of all drakons, but nothing you've said has been true of all humans.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7764
Profile #287
I prefer drakons but thats just me

[ Thursday, March 29, 2007 20:29: Message edited by: Tarrasque ]

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I have a karma of 2!Yay!
Posts: 60 | Registered: Monday, December 11 2006 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #288
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

The new breed designed to spy is very smart. They are not banned.
I meant independant. And I'm pretty sure you knew that.

I thought so, but I don't like to assume too much. My point was that serviles are not banned as a race as drakons are. They simply are not allowed to disobey. Some comparison is fine, but it won't be even comparison. Its moot anyway as we're comparing drakons with humans, not serviles.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #289
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

This thread now falls under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law . two or three times.
Yeah, we should probably stick a fork in it.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had never heard of this. I have to say that it makes a lot of sense.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #290
Ahh yes, Godwin's Law.

Pop culture from Usenet doesn't change the fact that my comparison between the Nazis and the Shapers is quite apt.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 8390
Profile #291
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

This thread now falls under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law.[/url] two or three times.
quote:
Originally Wikipedia: Godwin's Law
Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda or other mainstays of the Nazi regime.
This thread deals fairly directly with genocide, so the article you present on Godwin's Law proves that Godwin's Law does not apply.
Posts: 37 | Registered: Tuesday, March 27 2007 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #292
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

For those who condemn the Drakons releasing the Unbound, answer me these questions.

Do you condone America's firebombing and nuking of the Japanese mainland?

Would you have rathered to risk invasion by the Japanese Imperial Army?

Would you have rather that possibly hundreds of thousands of America troops die in a land assault?

Especially given that there is no way to know if a mainland assault would have resulted in more civilian casualties than the firebombing/nuking?

1. No I do not condone the firebombing and the nuking of the Japanese mainland.

2. America was never truly under real threat of a great invasion. The Japanese landed on American territory once (Alaska) in a very unsuccessful campaign (bottom line, every single Japanese soldier died). At worst USA would have lost some terretories in the Pacific in the very unlikely scenerio where the US lost .

3. It was not just a two option question of what to do. It wasn't just either we nuke them or invade them. There were other options such as a demonstration on an isolated area or low population density area. By killing so many civilians the US made itself into something that they had considered barbaric earlier. There is a certain point where it is to have some more honerable deaths than having a bloodsoaked path of unhonerable life. You didn't only hurt those in the area, you hurt their families and friends. There were [b] Americans [/b] that had families completely wiped out in those atomic attacks. Hiroshima contained what remained of my family members in Japan, but now only ashes are rest there.

4. See the first part of 3.

I would appreciate it if someone would quote this for me so Waylander may see it since he is ignoring my posts. I really don't see the point of him staying in this discussion if he isn't even going to see any rebuttles. He only surrounds himself with yesmen so he can feel better about himself.

P.S. I think that the only historical events that have managed to lodge themeselves into Waylander's head are references to Nazis and Isreal. Polarization is his game since Waylander is his name.

[ Friday, March 30, 2007 09:41: Message edited by: Retlaw May ]

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #293
All creation where designed by humans the drakons merely improved upon them. The shapers found that existing creations weren't up to the challenge so they came up with newer more power creations. The drakons only answer is more power no creativity no adapting. Is this effect of infeior genetics or soceity forged by harsh conditions? I don't know but if they fail to change it they will fail. If they fail to change this regardless of the circumstances and I consider inferior.

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #294
quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

All creation where designed by humans the drakons merely improved upon them. The shapers found that existing creations weren't up to the challenge so they came up with newer more power creations. The drakons only answer is more power no creativity no adapting. Is this effect of infeior genetics or soceity forged by harsh conditions? I don't know but if they fail to change it they will fail. If they fail to change this regardless of the circumstances and I consider inferior.
Their answer was highly effective and demonstrated great skill. Whether it was creative or not is a matter of opinion. What is a fact is that the humans, rebel and shaper, couldn't come up with a better idea. I don't think it's because they're better. I think it's exactly what you said - "soceity forged by harsh conditions."
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 8407
Profile #295
retlaw may you are a hippe. :mad: :D i agre with waylander ;)

[ Friday, March 30, 2007 14:54: Message edited by: jared ]
Posts: 27 | Registered: Thursday, March 29 2007 07:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #296
Wow, jared, you sure do make a forceful argument. :rolleyes:

The answer of the Drakons was the Unbound, which could have been done easier and better by the Shapers. The Shapers, on the other hand, didn't want to condemn innocent lives to death just because theirlives were threatened. When the innocents are all or at least mostly dead, then, and only then, do the Shapers resort to uncontrolled rogues.

The Shapers did come up with something better. They created new things instead of adding unpredictable and unreliable power to old ones. The creation of new things, not the altering of old ones, is, in and of itself, a sign of superiority.

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #297
quote:
Originally written by Meta-Undead Spokesmage:

The Shapers did come up with something better. They created new things instead of adding unpredictable and unreliable power to old ones. The creation of new things, not the altering of old ones, is, in and of itself, a sign of superiority.
That's one view. Others might say that pursuing novelty for the sake of novelty is a sign of decadence.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #298
Well, it is, but that's not what the Shapers did. They had a rational, practical need and filled it perfectly by creating something new, not solving it imperfectly by adding unpredictable, unreliable, uncontrollable, and simply dangerous power.

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #299
I think it's worth pointing out that:

1. The Shapers haven't invented much of anything truly new for a long time. Kyshakks are probably the most original, but they're still giant reptiles, of which there are already plenty in existence. War tralls are almost exactly like thahds and battle alphabets, just more powerful and the ability to throw rocks. Wingbolts are mainly artilas combined with bats. Barzahl modified vlish to make eyebeasts, drayks to make drakons, and battle alphabets to make the rots. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but the Shapers aren't exactly coming up with all-new, never-seen-anything-like-it-before creations anymore.

2. The drakons can't afford to mess up. They don't have the time or resources for that. Maybe they want to be more creative and maybe they don't, but they are practically forced to improve what they know already works since they can't afford the risk of the new creations failing them. Imagine what would have happened if the drakons had invented eyebeasts instead of the Unbound--the eyebeasts would have revolted or fled and the drakons would have been doomed. Or what if the drakons had invented the kyshakks instead? The Shapers have the numbers to make up for their lousy to-hit rate. The drakons don't.

So, given the situation and what little we know about the drakons, creativity isn't a valid comparison to determine superiority.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00

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