Are Drakons superior beings?
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, March 16 2007 16:14
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quote:The serviles that built Northforge, as Diki pointed out, left space for art in the walls. The drakons have had plenty of time to ignore the war and have petty political squabbles while the rebellion crumbles (Southforge), but they don't seem to have any need or desire to fill those walls with art. Barzahl, on the other hand, in the midst of complete chaos in Drypeak, built eleborate structures filled with extraneous art, which are still being built when you arrive (see Radient College description). quote:So the things I say aren't logically reasonable, but you're fine with this nonsense? Besides, you're not claiming that their similar, you're claiming that they are superior. Where is your evidence (or reasoning, I'm fine with either) that they are superior? quote:Where does it say this? Or is this more made up stuff? quote:You can complain that my claims are unsupported when you support your own. quote:I never said that, don't put words in my mouth. Thuryl, I'd be interested to see where it says that. Even if it is true, that would mean they still did not initially have shaping abilities (their glorious creator, Barzahl (mere human), decided not to bless them with it). They could have given it to themselves, sure, but humans could too, if they chose. The Shapers simply choose not to (foolish if you ask me) but hey, they're still beating the drakons in the war. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Friday, March 16 2007 16:36
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Look, a Drakon vs. Human fight depends on the Drakon, and depends on the human. Drakons are fearsome, yes, but late in-game you can bowl them over like so many kindergarteners by yourself. And, Waylander, your "evidence" has no bearing if their isn't anything supporting it in-game. These are games we are debating! Games! We may take them to a deep psychological and moral level, but they are games! Do not make any assumptions unless they are backed in-game! And ET, quite a few humans are incapable of love, compassion, or art. Drakons may be entirely incapable of it as a race, but that doesn't make any human automatically superior. All in all, the superiority depends on the individual human and the individual drakon. [ Friday, March 16, 2007 16:39: Message edited by: Nalyd The Dead ] -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, March 16 2007 16:46
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quote:I thought I remembered that reference, too. But grep dug up only about 50 references to Easss Shaping Ghaldring. I think what we're thinking of is that drakons were the first creation with the ability to Shape. AHA! GREP TO THE RESCUE! Issss-Ta the Drayk says: "No Shaper, that is for sure. I was made by Easss, the first drakon who could shape, the creator of Ghaldring. No, Ghaldring was not the first drakon who could Shape, whatever he is claiming now." -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Friday, March 16 2007 16:50
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Either way, this is a pointless debate. Vlish are the superior life forms. If you disagree, it's because they're manipulating your mind for their amusement. ;) -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Friday, March 16 2007 16:52
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quote:I fear for our women. Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Friday, March 16 2007 16:53
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quote:True humans are not perfect but compared to the drakons they get along extremly well. I have yet to speak with a non drakon who said something postive about their interworkings. Yet I meet lots of people who give the shapers high praise. A lite match is cold compared too a rageing forest fire. quote:Their arrogance is what makes them weak. Arrogance has crushed might empires and turn the tide against overwhemling odds. Thats why the rebellion had so much initial success. Though the shapers learned from the arrogance I have yet to see drakons learn from theirs. The wiser drakons are just merely over confident. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Friday, March 16 2007 17:37
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quote:So you're suggesting that since the Drakons don't give artwork priority over fighting a war and maintaining a stable, functional rebellion, they musn't have any appreciation for art? Huh? Although may I point out that the Shaping of creations could be seen as artwork, even though its primary purpose may be for warfare? quote:Or perhaps they have their priorities straight. Saving their species and the Rebellion first, and hang pretty pictures later. I doubt Hitler had much time for paintings when he engaged on his mission to conquer Europe, despite the fact that he initially desired to be an artist. quote:Complete chaos? Huh? For years, Barzhal pretty much had an informal truce with the other three sects. quote:quote:So the things I say aren't logically reasonable, but you're fine with this nonsense? How is it nonsense? If, like humans, Drakons possess sentience, sapience and introspection, it isn't a far stretch to deduce that they are capable of emotion. quote:It looks like you're grappling with this concept, so allow me to explain. Being 'similiar' to someone in some aspects, and being superior to them in general, are not mutually exclusive. Chimpanzees are similiar to humans in many aspects (tool making, social structure, morphology), but I doubt anyone would deny that human beings are superior. quote:Hmm, let's see: 1. Drakons have been demonstrated to be better Shapers than the Shapers themselves. Oh, and if you're looking for evidence, try replaying the entire series. 2. Drakons are born physically superior to humans. I'm not talking 'polar bear vs. human', I'm talking more along the lines of an electric train vs. a human. They also have the innate ability to spout gouts of fire which are far more damaging than any 'learned' human spell. 3. Drakons have demonstrated themselves to be far more intelligent and creative than Shapers, due to the mere fact that they have made extraordinary progress in the field of Shaping in a only a few decades. It's clear that Drakons are to humans as humans are to chimpanzees. quote:You can complain that my claims are unsupported when you support your own. [/QUOTE] Jeez, you must have been asleep when playing the latter portions of GF2, GF3, and GF4. Because if I remember correctly, Drakons are masters at molding new creations. If that's not creative genius, then what the hell is? -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, March 16 2007 17:56
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quote:Yeah, but they're not doing either. As I said in my last post, the drakon high command is more intent on concerning itself with bickering amongst each other rather than fixing the almost defunct rebellion. quote:He is still building these things when you visit them (during chaos). quote:Who are you to say that this isn't a stretch? How many other sapient species besides humans do you know of? quote:In the series I played, humans invented the canisters and geneforge. They also created the drakons themselves, rotgroths, eyebeasts, and... oh... every single other creation in the game. quote:Yes, humans certainly did do an excellent job when they designed them, I'll give them that. quote:This is all rebel propaganda. The rebellion can do almost nothing that the shapers didn't do first. Sure, they advanced to the same level as humans in record time, but they used stolen knowledge, and they had to be taught it by Zachary and Barzahl personally. quote:As I said before, humans are responsible for all new creations. Name one thing the drakons have contributed at all. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, March 16 2007 17:56
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quote:It didn't seem to me that ghaldring and the drakon you meet outside the gates that can serve as your second to get the key were as arrogant. Certainly not models of humility, but they seemed a bit more reserved and pensive. They also both recognize that humans have their place. They weren't insane or animalistic as some in this thread have claimed. Also the humans in the game tend to be arrogant as well. That's why even some of the rebel serviles are jumpy around you. They still are not treated with equality by rebel humans. It should also be noted that no one in the game, human or otherwise, "creates" or "makes" other forms of life in the biblical sense. God makes or creates something from nothing. He is superior because he is the Creator. The term "shaping" is fitting as already existing forms of life are altered. It makes the relationship between shaper and shaped more like parent/child, as someone (one of the serviles i think) so aptly points out in Game 3. Even though the child comes from the parent and owes it's existence to actions of the parent, the parent does not hold a godlike role and is certainly not superior. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Friday, March 16 2007 18:13
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You forget, that information is from a servile. If you give one an inch and it'll take a mile. That one is obviously dilusional from too many rations and a lack of authority. [ Friday, March 16, 2007 18:13: Message edited by: Enraged Slith ] Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, March 16 2007 18:21
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I don't think this discussion is going to go far unless superior is defined - unless you all are just having fun bickering. In which case you shouldn't define it as you might actually resolve the issue. I personally don't see any substantial difference between the two that would lead me to say one is superior. NOTE: IGNORE THIS IF YOU WANT TO CONTINUE BICKERING. superior (adj) 2: of higher rank, quality, or importance I think this is the definition we want, in particular the quality part. So when you say one is superior to the other, what you're saying is that one is of higher quality. And if you say that one is higher quality you still have to be more specific. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, March 16 2007 18:27
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Nalyd, Stillness, if you haven't noticed, we're making up the definition as we go along. We have been going into detail of the many aspects that we think makes a superior being, so so far we've agreed on that much, at least. If you have a problem with the qualities of 'superior' we've come up with so far, please be more specific than a generic dictionary definition that doesn't help at all. [ Friday, March 16, 2007 18:28: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, March 16 2007 18:38
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quote:Funny. Like good comedy it rings true to life. That is the way an oppressor thinks. As a decendant of slaves who were thought to be "inferior" (and still are by some) I always feel a bit of kinship to serviles, and even to some extent to drakons. I was very happy to be able to take the role of a free servile this game. I know firsthand the psycological difficulty that can come from forced servitude. Even after one is set free bodily, the mind has trouble catching up. I even have an arrogant, militant uncle that believes our "race" is superior to the one that formerly enslaved us. I reckon that this is why the Genefoge series is so endearing - it mirrors reality so well. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, March 16 2007 18:54
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Originally by Emperor Tullegolar: quote:I'm too lazy to look it up, so will you post the section that says it's still being built during the chaos and not put on hold or completely finished during that time? (It still doesn't prove that they would worry about art during a war against the Shapers, though.) Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, March 16 2007 18:56
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quote:It doesn't help because you don't want help. You want to argue - which is cool as long as you're having fun. I am. I'm procrastinating from very important real life stuf by engaging in a debate over fictional characters in a video game. My position is this: Neither drakons nor humans are superior. They both have their unique strengths and weaknesses. Even with those it is difficult to compare because Drakons are a young race. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, March 16 2007 19:06
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quote:You are correct. ;) -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, March 16 2007 19:09
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Hmm, the best I can come up with would be, when refering to the buildings on the North Rising Road (which include the entrance to the Radient College, one of their most elaborate peices of art) they are described as such: "They look recently built, probably by heavy creation labor." I'm not certain whether or not this implies they are all finished. Just looking at the College gates, the little guard posts outside appear only half done. Also there is the matter of 'recently.' How long had their been hostility between the factions before you arrived? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Friday, March 16 2007 20:20
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quote:Well no, that's just hyperbole. While there were a couple of rogue Drakons who rebelled against the hierarchy, in general the Drakons seemed to cooperate as a cohesive whole. They were expending effort into fighting the Shapers (witness the Unbound). quote:'These things'? What exactly do you mean by that? Do roads and buildings which serve a practical purpose qualify as 'art' now? If so, then the Takers and the Rebellion have produced a lot of 'art'. Tell me, do you think that France would have constructed the Statue of Liberty if they had been in the middle of fighting WWI? quote:Given that humans are the only known sapient species, it makes perfect sense to use them as a baseline. A Drakon's behaviourism, IQ and EQ apparently resembles that of a human, hence the evidence suggests that they can feel emotion. Another line of evidence is that Drayks clearly demonstrate empathy for other beings. Given that Drakons are merely improved version of Drayks, it stands to reason that they are likely to have the capacity to experience emotion. quote:Which were very crude. The Takers, and the Drakons, made vast improvements. quote:Again, the Drakons are far more apt at creating Drakons that their human counterparts. quote:The Taker rotgroths were superior to the human (Barzite) rotgroths, as even the Barzite in the Radiant College mentioned. quote:Barzhal conceived the idea of the eyebeast, but he wasn't the first to create one. It was the Taker Drakons who first created an eyebeast. quote:Well, no. There are numerous creations which the Drakons have vastly improved on. I thought you would have come to realize this as you hacked your way through the Taker/Rebel dumping grounds. quote:A computer hasn't done anything which a human hasn't done first. I guess the fact that a computer performs all of these tasks with far greater calculation power and efficiency doesn't come into the equation... quote:You just keep telling yourself that. All those variations which have come out of the Drakon labs and into the dumping grounds don't exist... -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, March 16 2007 20:30
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Drakons definitely appreciate art, or else why would they build space for it. Drakons are listed before serviles as the ones responsible for Northforge. They certainly are the dominant of the two races. If they didn't appreciate art, there would be no room for it in the complex that they built and run. That's a no-brainer. The fact that they have a complex that no human has touched is a testament to their intelligence. Although it would seem that Drakons are physically stronger, they seem to lack the agility of humans. Think about your battles with drakons and people. Are the Drakons really any harder to kill? I don't think so. As far as spells v. Drakon fire, I havent noticed their fire hitting harder than spells. Are they capable of battle, mental, or blessing magic? They don't seem capable of magic to the same extent as humans. The fact that they have made advances in shaping might be due to the fact that they face the risk of extinction. Necessity is the mother of invention. Also, they don't have the same self-imposed boundaries that the shapers have. Someone mentioned the Nazis in this thread - they made discoveries and scientific advances beyond their contemporaries because they had great disregard for the sanctity of life. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Friday, March 16 2007 23:13
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Stillness: quote:I'm not sure what you mean by this. I agree that Drakon claws are far clumsier than human/servile hands (it's actually mentioned in GF2 that Drayks have clumsy handwriting), but Drakons move as fast as a human, if not faster (they have 8 AP, Quick Action, and always seem to strike me first in battle...) quote:In general, yes. However, I did find Monarch harder than any Drakon. But I'd attribute that to the fact that Monarch is found far earlier in the game, when your PC is 'greener'. By the end, I had several of my own Drakons to fight the opposing Drakons... While it is possible for humans to match Drakons in strength and speed, they usually have to be Shaped to the Max, or a Master Master Shaper with, with apparently centuries of experience and some nice equipment. Either way, an unexperienced Drakon is far more powerful than an unexperienced human. Analogy: A woman, with adequate training, could easily overpower the average male. However, that doesn't change the fact that men have more innate physical power than women. quote:I tend to play on Torment, and have noticed that since GF2, their breath spells rip me a new *******. They seem to be more lethal that the average spell casting human. quote:I remember that several Drayks in the series have the ability to cast spells. In fact, a Drayk in the Rebel Stronghold goes out of his way to teach you. A Cryodrayk (Salassdar?) in GF 2 also teaches you powerful spells (if you are a Taker). As Drakons are merely improved Drayks, it stands to reason that they are capable of spell casting. They just don't bother, since teeth and their fiery breath pretty much do the job. quote:I'm sure that the risk of extinction, and an upcoming war with the Shapers, were driving factors which catalyzed their Shaping advancement. But that doesn't somehow cheapen their achievements. quote:True. But they still kick ass. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3357
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written Saturday, March 17 2007 00:34
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The Drakons have essentially been using much more advanced technology than the Shapers - this has to balance out any difference in resources. In G1, the Shapers had the same microscope technology as the Drakons, anyway. Posts: 76 | Registered: Saturday, August 16 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, March 17 2007 06:48
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quote:Well, if I have to repeat myself, again, I was talking about the entrance to the Radient College, which is described as being overly eleborate. Barzahl, from the moment he arrived in Drypeak, was preparing for his inevitible war with the Shapers. While preparing, he still made time for art. quote:No they don't, not at all. What makes you say that? quote:No they don't. Drayks and serviles constantly complain that the drakons care little for either race. quote:Again, no. Usually, when anything is improved by shaping, emotion is the first thing to go. quote:Will your inaccuracies ever stop? How were canisters improved? They were the same damn things. As for the geneforge, the original human geneforge made you character (or Trajkov or Goettsch) into a demi-god, the drakon geneforges merely make them into ur-drakons. They clearly make inferior geneforges. quote:Seeing as how it is not the drakons' goal to control these creations, or any creations for that matter, they are able to make stronger creations in general, yes. However, when humans abandon the need to control creations, like Shaper Monarch did, they make the most powerful creations ever seen: the Titan. quote:Does it say this somewhere? quote:Anyone can create (and people like Barzahl and Monarch regularly do) horrible, mutant, overpowered creations. If we're going to argue on the point of creation strength rather than actual design (humans came up with the initial design for all creations) then we need to think of the most powerful creations. So far, these would be the things that Monarch, a human, made. quote:Do you really think the drakons actually helped build the places they live in? Serviles do all that work, drakons, at the most, oversee. Who knows, they could have intended the serviles to eventually make the art for the walls as well. quote:Is the fact that a parrot can mimic human speech a testiment to their intelligence? Everything the drakons know, they learned from Zachary and Barzahl. They may make some improvements now and then, but they were nothing but crappy drayks on Sucia before they were helped by humans. quote:We're back to the polar bear argument. Are polar bears superior beings? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8323
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written Saturday, March 17 2007 07:39
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Alright, this is what I think. They're both superior in their own ways. I'll list them. Drakon: War, Battle, Arrogance Humans: Everything Else That's why Humans are considered superior. The Drakons are only superior in battle and arrogance. In everything else the human is superior. It's like comparing the weapon and the user: the weapon is useless for anything but battleing. -------------------- Captain: That atomic ion cannon should have killed him.... WHAT?!?! HES STILL ALIVE?!?! Guard: Yes, captain. He's an arrangment of numbers called 'statistics'. Captain: Oh.... Guard: Captain.... we have new data. Captain: What is it? Guard: Emperor Tullegor is always right. Captain: Isn't that obvious? Posts: 13 | Registered: Friday, March 16 2007 07:00 |
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Canned
Member # 8014
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written Saturday, March 17 2007 07:52
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I'm starting to think that Dreadknight is an oldbie who made a new account. Edit -humans and I are superior to Drakons, bunnies, muffins, and Nalyd. [ Saturday, March 17, 2007 07:55: Message edited by: Infernal Flamming Muffin ] -------------------- I can transform into almost anything, though not sanity. My brother tried to type something here. I just erased it. Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Saturday, March 17 2007 07:57
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Ok, I've been out for a while so there was a lot to read so excuse me if there is something here that has been mentioned before or something of the like. God help me, but I'm going to have to go with ET on this. Waylander, I sometimes wonder if you have even ever played through a game as a loyalist, let alone a non-canister loyalist. I seem to remember you arguing that serviles aren't inferior just because Shapers made them to be inferior; so how can you argue the opposite with the Drakons? Even putting that asside, have you noticed what the Drakons are even doing? Their "advances" are just willingness to let loose uncontroled creations over the countryside, killing anything that gets in the way (see Monarch). You talk of Drakons as poor underdogs, but (in the experience in the games which is all you can truly base anything off of) I see MANY more Drakons that Shapers. I mean really, have you ever seen a patrol of a dozen Shaper? You or someone else also sited one or two Drakons who didn't seem completely insane or having some introspection, but this just doesn't do... I see a couple humans that are fricken insane, but I don't base the race off of them; I base it off the majority. I imagine Drakons basically as time bombs or Kamakazis: yeah you can take out several people, but you get blown up in the process. I think I have more to add but I know that people skim extremely long posts and I'll wait for you to attempt to flame me. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |