Are Drakons superior beings?

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AuthorTopic: Are Drakons superior beings?
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #300
The thing is, the Drakons had a whole unknown base to themselves before the PC came along. If you read the dialogue, you'll realize that the Shapers had absolutely no idea about where Northforge was, other than "Oh it's in the cold, inhospitable and unexplorable mountains to the west." The Drakons had years up there and what did they do? Make thing powerful and completely uncontrollable. That is the ultimate destiny of the Drakons; self-Shaping and self-Shaping until they're the Unbound times 1000.

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #301
But, the Shapers already had five Infiltrators in Burwood, including one who knew where Quessa-Uss was. The drakons didn't know how much time they had before they were discovered, and it would be foolish to assume they had unlimited time before they had to act because once the Shapers had a good idea of where Northforge was, they would fast. (And they did move fast. They made a camp they couldn't get dislodged from, found a route past the Grayghost Gates, and entered Northforge without a lot of help from your PC.)

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #302
Retlew, a member PM'ed me about your post, and I decided to take you off ignore. You are the lesser of the two evils on this forum at the moment.

quote:

1. No I do not condone the firebombing and the nuking of the Japanese mainland.

Ok then. I appreciate the fact that you're consistent.

I think it's important to point out that I'm an Australian. The simple fact is that after the fall of Singapore (the final British bastion of defense in Australasia), Australia was under imminent threat of invasion.

What turned the tide of the war, and hence saved Australia from invasion and occupation by a barbaric regime, was American intervention, and the firebombing/nuking of Japan. So while I dislike America as a nation, I can still be thankful of its actions against the Japanese, even if they are analogous to the Drakons releasing the Unbound.

quote:

2. America was never truly under real threat of a great invasion.

If Japan had have gained dominance in the Pacific, America would have been under a very real threat of invasion.

But may I point out that many Asian countries WERE under Japanese occupation (China, Indonesia, Korea), and suffered terribly. And, after the fall of Singapore, Australia was more than likely to suffer the same fate.

quote:

3. It was not just a two option question of what to do. It wasn't just either we nuke them or invade them. There were other options such as a demonstration on an isolated area or low population density area.

Would have that had any effect? The Japanese had been suffering firebombing for months, and actually were hesistant to surrender even after the 1st atomic bomb was dropped!

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #303
quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

You are the lesser of the two evils on this forum at the moment.
Don't let him get to you, man. He disagrees for the fun of it. If you get mad he wins - exactly like Hitler and the Jews.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #304
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

You are the lesser of the two evils on this forum at the moment.
Don't let him get to you, man. He disagrees for the fun of it. If you get mad he wins - exactly like Hitler and the Jews.

Stillness, I'm guessing you're talking about ET on this thing, but I don't get your analogy... Waylander I am happy that you took me off ignore though I doubt there is too much more to say. Ignoring your enemy's/enemies' arguments even if you strongly disagree with them is not the path to take. **Warning political statement all people of strong conservative sympathies close the window.** It is like the US refusing to even talk with Iran or North Korea.

Oh yeah, and just to reinstate why the US was never really that threatened by Japan itself is that the US only devoted 10% of its resources to the war in the Pacific. The other 90% was going to the war in Europe/Africa. By the time the US dropped the atomic bombs on Japan Australia was not under much threat. Thank you AP Euro.

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #305
Retlew:
quote:

Ignoring your enemy's/enemies' arguments even if you strongly disagree with them is not the path to take

If I disagree with someone's ARGUMENTS (not opinion) because they are logically fallacious, it only makes sense to discard and ignore them.

I'm willing to admit that my view regard Drakon superiority is indeed opinion, and that 'superior' is in a sense subjective.

However, the arguments put forward by one particular poster on this thread are downright absurd. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. This particular poster starts by assuming that his conclusion is an axiom, and then reinterprets all evidence to fit that axiom. Fundamentalists love to do this when scientific evidence contradicts their scripture.

If I do disregard an argument, it is because it is absurd, not because it doesn't fit my axiom.

quote:

Oh yeah, and just to reinstate why the US was never really that threatened by Japan itself is that the US only devoted 10% of its resources to the war in the Pacific. The other 90% was going to the war in Europe/Africa.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, but can you post a source? I know that the U.S channeled a lot of money to the Soviets in the Lend-Lease act, but I'm a little surprised that spent so little in their war against Imperial Japan, considering that Japan was America's most dangerous rival in the Pacific.

quote:

By the time the US dropped the atomic bombs on Japan Australia was not under much threat.

I guess you could say that Japan's naval fleet had been crippled (partially to extensive firebombing preventing new the construction of a new fleet) by the time the nukes were dropped, which is why the Japs resorted to Kamikaze.

Either way, there is no way to tell if continued firebombing and a mainland assault would have caused more civilian casualties than nukes. Added to which, American troops would have died in a mainland invasion.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #306
There is an interesting interaction between the PC and Chorss, the ur-drakon that is task master and guardian at the grayghost gates.

Chorss: "New gatesss, where we hold off and slay the Shapersss. We build big and strong. Grayghost Mountainsss oursss!"

PC: "Who is doing the work?"

Chorss: "Drakonsss! Servilesss! Together! Creationsss until my ordersss all respect other creationsss. Other drakonsss feel other. Not me."


This kills the theory that drakons don't work. It kills the theory that drakons are single-minded. It also shows that there is hope that they won't become just like the shapers. If they do, at least we can see that there are voices among them that disagree with mistreating other races just as there are among the humans.

Too, it's notable that he is a ur-drakon. This means that even though he has been given more size and power than a drakon, his sanity has not been sacrificed nor has he become more arrogant.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #307
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

The drakons can't afford to mess up. They don't have the time or resources for that. Maybe they want to be more creative and maybe they don't, but they are practically forced to improve what they know already works since they can't afford the risk of the new creations failing them.
So they have all the time in the world to lounge around and argue with each other, but when it comes to making cutting edge new creations to help them win a war 'for their very survival,' they don't have time for it?

But really, you're coming at this with the wrong assumptions, the drakons do make mistakes, lots of them. Look at the dumping grounds Waylander pointed out earlier. They make tons of mistakes. Non-creative, really crappy mistakes. They have a lot more resources than you give them credit for, they just haven't produced anything near as good as the humans have with them.

Then there's the fact that the drakons do not care whether or not a creation can be controled. Imagine all the ideas the Shapers must come up with that have to be abandoned because they are uncontrollable (drayks and eyebeasts are a few that still exist today). The drakons, on the other hand, make things specifically for causing chaos, and yet the best they can do is bigger versions of existing creations? All the evidence says humans are better shapers. Much better.
quote:
Chorss: "Drakonsss! Servilesss! Together! Creationsss until my ordersss all respect other creationsss. Other drakonsss feel other. Not me."
Could someone please translate "creations until my orders all respect other creations" into something that makes sense? I'd like to know exactly what he is talking about before I say anything. If only drakons spoke better English, but no, their superiority complex forces them to make their own language, despite the confusion and tension between races this will inevitably create.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #308
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Could someone please translate "creations until my orders all respect other creations" into something that makes sense?
As long as he's giving the orders all creations will respect all other creations, so drakons and serviles work side by side. Understand now?

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

their superiority complex forces them to make their own language, despite the confusion and tension between races this will inevitably create.
Where do you come up with this stuff? The mention is that drakons are making their language not because of superiority, but because they want a "sibilant" language, apparently because of the make-up of their speech organs and/or brain. It will help to improve intra-species communication and may serve as a code for protecting drakon secrets. That being said drakons in general don't have a problem grasping or speaking English, some drakons do. You have an active imagination.

Honestly, I don't like them a whole lot either, but I think a lot of the negative things we so readily see in them are a reflection of badness in man. I can't think of anything they do wrong that humans in the game haven't also done. The arrogance, prejudice, violence, etc are all very human. If there was only negative, then I'd say they were inferior too. But, there isn't only negative. Chorss' insistence on respect for other creations even though some of his brothers disagree is just one instance of this.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #309
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Could someone please translate "creations until my orders all respect other creations" into something that makes sense?
As long as he's giving the orders all creations will respect all other creations, so drakons and serviles work side by side. Understand now?
No. Are you assuming 'until' is a typo of 'under?'
quote:
drakons in general don't have a problem grasping or speaking English
Then why do they want their own language if it is only going to alienate their species further? They like being alienated, don't they? That's why they hide in the mountains. Their inability to adapt or even try to get along with others is one of their greatest weaknesses.
quote:
I think a lot of the negative things we so readily see in them are a reflection of badness in man.
I agree with this completely. And you know, what, maybe not all drakons are bad. But what makes humans superior is that the the crazy ones are the exception to the rule (Monarch), whereas for drakons, the sane, reasonable ones (Ghaldring?) are the exception.

[ Saturday, March 31, 2007 20:24: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #310
"Until" means "until." Use the context and figure it out.

I already told you from the game why they're making another language. All drakons are not proficient with humanoid tounges so they are developing a more sibilant language. It is also described as secret. That's almost a direct quote.

Edit: Typo

[ Sunday, April 01, 2007 09:01: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #311
Why do you feel Ghaldring is more sane and reasonable than other drakons?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #312
Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
So they have all the time in the world to lounge around and argue with each other, but when it comes to making cutting edge new creations to help them win a war 'for their very survival,' they don't have time for it?
Does anyone remember any quotes that give the timeframe of the Ghaldring-Salassar political fighting? I know the drakons didn't become excessively arrogant until several months before your character shows up, but how long have the drakons been squabbling with each other?

quote:
But really, you're coming at this with the wrong assumptions, the drakons do make mistakes, lots of them. Look at the dumping grounds Waylander pointed out earlier. They make tons of mistakes. Non-creative, really crappy mistakes. They have a lot more resources than you give them credit for, they just haven't produced anything near as good as the humans have with them.
The Shapers make all kinds of mistakes too, they just reabsorb them immediately if it's apparent they won't work out. Sucia Island has two zones dedicated to holding creations in storage until the Shapers determine that they are good enough to keep and Barzahl had a similar zone (plus the thahd dumping grounds). The drakon dumping grounds are the exact same idea, just with less control (or not, in the case of the thahds).

And while drakons have plenty of resources, they don't have the resources of the Shapers. The drakons are a race and culture that is extremely young and they only hold one section of the continent. The Shapers have had hundreds of years to develop standards and control (the earliest Shapers destroyed Sucia Island with their lack of control, remember?), plus they have a continent and a half of people to work with. So in terms of numbers and organization and all the benefits that come from that, the Shapers are superior. But the drakons have enough skill and enough technology over the Shapers to surpass them (in Shaping skills at least) if they can somehow survive and develop to do so.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #313
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

"Until" means "unti."
What?
quote:
Why do you feel Ghaldring is more sane and reasonable than other drakons?
Greta says at one point "Ghaldring has something almost unique among the drakons: a subtle mind." Earlier when Waylander was using Ghaldring as an example of why drakons are as clever as humans, I pointed out the fact that he is "almost unique" in this regard. Any other drakon prefers to solve problems by fighting.
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

But the drakons have enough skill and enough technology over the Shapers to surpass them
What makes you say this? What makes anyone say this? I have not seen this supposed skill that people always talk about. Humans make better creations. Anything that the drakons make that is stronger (the unbound or various mistakes found in dungeons) are only stronger because they do not require the control that the Shaper prefer in their creations. As I said before, when the desire for control is no longer there, humans still make the strongest creation of all (Barzahl and Monarch's creations).

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
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Profile #314
I meant "until."

Just because someone's mind is not as subtle doesn't make them insane or unreasonable.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 5650
Profile #315
Superiority is something to be demonstrated, not just claimed. If you stop demonstrating it, you stop being it, but if you keep claiming it, then someone who can demonstrate it will come make a fool of you.

Both humans and drakons have demonstrated superiority in ways that serviles and ornks never have, but the only conclusive proof of superiority will come when one supplants the other, and then all these arguments will be moot.

However, the world drakons would create would not be superior for humans, so unless you can reshape yourself into a drakon, you'd be an idiot not to fight against that kind of a future.
Posts: 42 | Registered: Thursday, March 31 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 6912
Profile #316
I always thought it was a tie. Each side fights for different moral principles and each side has pros and cons that pretty much balance each other out. However, after geneforge 4 I feel that the drakons are now just fighting for their survival and not their ideology. They are destroying creations, serviles and humans that they set out to free from shaper rule. Shapers are also becoming more loose with their laws and drakons are becoming more brutal. After the unbound I wouldn’t be surprised if the human/servile side of the rebellion defected. Think about it, would the general human population ever willingly submit to the rebellion after the unbound? This means that if the Drakons want to win they will have to become just as oppressive as the shapers.
Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #317
Both sides of this arguement are making assumptions. Both sides feel that their own assumptions are more valid or implied through the story line, but they are still assumptions. I know that I draw some conclusions that I feel are implied in the story that the other side finds absurd, but those people should realize that they do the same and look equally absurd to us. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #318
The main reason I think the human are supeior is that that drakons are loseing despite knoweldge of genes, suprise attack, and the use of forbiden shaping. They are loseing prehaps the shapers do have superior resoruces and man power but if they are superior shouldn't have they over come that espically consdiering the drakon geneforge and the advantage of suprise. The quailty that I beleive that gives humans superiority is they are more adaptable, creative, and able to work together better (emphasis and the word better). You see the same problems in drakons as in cansiter junkies, which is why I beleive they should be used sparingly. Unless they turn the tides I will beleive them inferior.

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
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Profile #319
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

Both sides of this arguement are making assumptions. Both sides feel that their own assumptions are more valid or implied through the story line, but they are still assumptions. I know that I draw some conclusions that I feel are implied in the story that the other side finds absurd, but those people should realize that they do the same and look equally absurd to us. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
There are at least three sides to this argument. I've tried to stick to arguments that are directly stated in-game or strongly implied without assuming much. I certainly don't think any of my arguments are absurd. I've been wrong, but I don't continue with a point once shown that i am. That's the mark of absurdity.

If you look at the whole picture based off of hard facts (not feelings, opinion, or imagination) I think you're hard pressed to go with either side being superior. Presenting a comprehensive argument in favor of one is basically going to apply good qualities to one race that both races have, apply bad traits to the other race that both races have, and ignore important details. That's what I've seen.

Anyone who disagrees with me is at least Nazi-like if not an actual Nazi. Do you agree Retlaw?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #320
I think they have they have the potential to b e equal to humans but their arrogance holds them back. If they over come their arrogance then yes. The shapers where extremly arrogant but they over came it enough to turn the tides Drakons can seem to do the same prehaps if we follow the shaper story the will.

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #321
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
You mean the gazer. :P

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
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Profile #322
quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

I think they have they have the potential to b e equal to humans...
I'm including potential in my estimation of superiority. I would say that an adult male is not superior to an infant, even though he is stronger and smarter.

Edit: If you go over the thread you will find a few quoted instances when a certain displays of arrogance are frowned upon within drakon society. They have potential.

[ Sunday, April 01, 2007 16:34: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #323
Originally by Retlaw May:

quote:
Both sides of this arguement are making assumptions. Both sides feel that their own assumptions are more valid or implied through the story line, but they are still assumptions.
Oh, of course. We can try to base our assumptions on the game as much as possible, but there are so many quotes, so many things left undiscussed, and so many different ways of interpreting the quotes that sticking entirely to the game is impossible. It's not what you argue, it's how you argue.

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
As I said before, when the desire for control is no longer there, humans still make the strongest creation of all (Barzahl and Monarch's creations).
Neither Barzahl nor Monarch are typical Shapers, though. According to Zakary, Barzahl was "smart and talented. He could have been a fantastic Agent, or even a Shaper. Very skilled." Then he used a large amount of canisters on top of that. Monarch is so unnaturally powerful that people ask whether he's a PC from an earlier game and he has also used many canisters. We haven't seen any genius "Shaper" drakons yet, so we don't know what one could do. Ghaldring is a brilliant leader, but I don't remember anyone saying anything about his brilliant ability to make creations. And while drakons use the geneforge, they don't use canisters.

I confess that I have not been to see Monarch's toughest creations yet, but somehow I doubt he was ready to mass produce the Titan like the drakons did with the Unbound. And he had no control over his creations at all without the control rod, while the drakons can control the Unbound--just enough to get them through rebel lands without harming anyone and keep them in Shaper lands. So the drakons could probably create something even stronger than the Unbound if they really wanted to throw off all control.

quote:
What makes you say this? What makes anyone say this? I have not seen this supposed skill that people always talk about.
Because there's something different about this rebellion. The Shapers have conquered the known world, exterminated all other cultures, and put down every other rebellion. But this time, multiple generations of Unbound result in secure rebel lands and Shaper lands being torn apart, one generation results in a stalemate, and no Unbound results in the Shapers still having no control over the Ashen Isles and keeping records of this rebellion--something they've never done before. What's different? The drakons (and drayks). The humans and serviles helped, but they were so incompetent they lost Illya and practically lost Burwood. The drakons are not inferior to the Shapers.

Originally by Lord Safey:

quote:
They are loseing prehaps the shapers do have superior resoruces and man power but if they are superior shouldn't have they over come that espically consdiering the drakon geneforge and the advantage of suprise.
1. Geneforges aren't all that powerful. Look what it did to your PC in G4--gave the ability to shape (not powerful in and of itself), and a few very basic skills.

2. The rebellion was winning when it had the element of surprise. They took over half a continent. But as soon as the Shapers recovered, they used their numbers and resources to beat back the rebels.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 8425
Profile #324
Wow. 13 pages of reading this and I'm still sane. I'm surprised.

So far, my interpretation of both sides arguments has been "this is the way it is and you're not providing basis for your claims." While good points have been made for both sides, they've been either ignored or shouted down. I'm going to try to correct that.

(Note: I've only played G1, so I had no preset opinions before reading this. Also note that this is all opinion.)

Pro-human arguments:
1. Drakons are only capable of killing/war/violence.
Could go either way from what I see. Not taking a stand.

2. Drakons have no empathy.
It depends on whether an act of kindness which benefits you is still empathic. You'd have to explore motivation, which is simply guesswork.

3. Drakons are clumsier.
So? Agility isn't everything.

4. Shapers aren't using canisters, and they're still winning.
True.

5. Shapers have restraint. (i.e. they make sure that they can control their creations.)
True.

Pro-drakon arguments:
1. They're better at shaping.
I disagree. From what I've read, all they've made is better drakons. Even assuming that wingbolts, etc. are just improvements of old creations and not new developments, the shapers have variety and more radical improvements.

2. Many different arguments that add up to "Humans aren't superior." (Including art, empathy, etc.)
Okay. I'll grant you that drakons aren't mindless beasts. Now prove that drakons are superior.

3. Drakons are better fighters.
True.

I'm sure there are more arguments, but those are the ones that stood out to me. My final opinion is that humans win, although it is close.

Also, I'd like to mention that ignoring your opposition after complaing that they ignore facts doesn't look good. Especially when your arguments have are about as (ir)rational.

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The sparrows are flying again.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, April 1 2007 07:00

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