Are Drakons superior beings?
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Monday, March 19 2007 19:12
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ET, and I are the ones who don't listen to reason or concede anything? I don't really like to be grouped with ET because he is too extreme, but Waylander is just as extreme only on the other side. Waylander has conceded nothing and even ignored my first two responses (pg 3 and 4). And back on the Eyebeast matter, those at the Radiant college designed the Eyebeast . Do you think they just said "Oh, maybe if you just change this gene and this gene..." No, all was the advances were random changes to see what worked. The Takers improved the design and made most of the ones your character talks to . -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8165
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written Monday, March 19 2007 19:52
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Forget the eyebeast....drakonsss! :mad: -------------------- R.R Posts: 179 | Registered: Friday, February 23 2007 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 05:17
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quote:My comments were directed to ET. He will continue to repeat the same argument even if a direct quote from the game says the exact opposite. He seems to make things up and make statements that are illogical. Let me illustrate: quote:Throughout the thread the argument has been that Drakons are dumb animals that have no control over their greed and heartlessness. Now the argument is that Shapers can't be blamed for their cruelty?! Are they animals too, or are they thinking beings that should be held responsible for their actions? quote:This is called the bait and switch. The discussion is about drakons v. humans. The rebellion is made up of drakons AND humans. A failure of the rebellion is a failure of drakons AND humans. quote:The Drakons very existence is banned by the empire that controls the land. Their very birth means they are hunted and at war with a powerful enemy. They are intent on surviving. One can expect a somewhat warlike mentality. Consider too that their society is young. That being said, it has been shown in this thread that drakons can be compassionate. It has been shown that they have honor. They have a sense of humor. They appreciate art. They are not animalistic, but have a complex culture and political structure. When you are attacked in their home, even though you are a human, they are very upset because you are their guest and their code of ethics does not allow for harm to come to a guest. They (except of course the criminal responsible) are genuinely sorry and show it by compensating you with money and information. They are not all bad, just like the humans in the game. Think about it this way: If you were a drayk, a gazer, an eyebeast, a servile with a little independant thinking, or a human that has been shaped and you were at a crossroads with one settlement down either road and all you know about them is that one is drakon and one is human, which would you go towards for shelter? Where would your chances of recieving a little compassion be better? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 995
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 05:47
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quote:We are given no evidence to support that the original eyebeast design was incapable of speech/sapience. And in no way we are told what the "improvements" on the design were - for all we know, the eyebeast you talk to is merely more deadly, but equally as smart as the originals. Or maybe something else has changed. We simply do not know. All we are told for sure is that Barzhal made the original. Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 08:22
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Stillness: You are right, this conversation has been drifting away from its original topic. Surely, though, you are not saying I am the only one to blame? You took the 'bait' by the way. Just as I did, you're confusing the Shapers with humanity as a whole. We should probably not do that. Now, what other arguments have I been making that you see as contrary to the evidence from the games? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 12:16
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Stillness, you are making presumptions that have no real basis in the game. I make my judgements off of the plot that I play. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 13:19
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Emp: quote:No offense meant, Emp, but I think you're struggling to come to grips with a simple concept. Whether you like it or, the Shapers are an elitist human sect, which have progressed on a campaign to genocide the drayks and drakons. They have been indirectly/directly supported by most humans, while the rest of the human population sits back and does nothing. I have seen not one jot of sympathy from the humans in regards to the plight of the Drakons. Allow me to draw on an analogy. Pretend you are a Jew whose race is being purged by Nazis. You're continually hunted by Nazis, fingered by non-Nazi Germans, and receive doses of anti-semitism from the German population is general. Would you be fond of the German people? Even though not every German is a Nazi, you cannot blame the Jews throughout WWII for having a hatred of all Germans. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 13:44
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quote:Nah, you're cool. I think you're trying to stir stuff up and keep it going, which is not a big deal. This is a debate about fictional creatures in a video game. quote:I may have, but I don't think so. My point is that humanity is no better than the drakons in the grand scheme. There may be minor differences, but overall they are the same. So I can point to the shapers to say they do the same bad things as the drakons. It proves my point because even though not all humans are shapers, shapers are humans. It shows that humans are not superior. No bait-and-switch there. quote:I don't know dude. Your argument has been disproven on every count in my eyes. The "drakons are superior" guys have a stronger argument, even though their still wrong. quote:What are you talking about? [ Tuesday, March 20, 2007 13:45: Message edited by: Stillness ] Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:05
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quote:Are you serious? Are you saying there are no rebel humans? What is wrong with you? quote:Now you see, this makes me think the opposite. All drakons, every single one, either serves the cause of the Rebellion without question (they never question the violence and the hatred, as if they are born knowing only those things), or they are one of the few exceptions that live on their own gathering wealth. I would say that humans are superior because they don't all have to be shapers, or soldiers, or politicians, or pawns. They can be anything, anything at all. The question is, are drakons superior because they all have to be warriors or shapers, or are humans superior because they don't have to be? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:25
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quote:All drakons don't hate humans. They all hate shapers. They are not violent for the sake of being violent. They are violent because their existence is banned by a very powerful foe. It's hard to pursue your dream of making beautiful sculptures while you're being hunted. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:36
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quote:What, like tons of freeborn serviles haven't done just that? There are plenty examples of serviles living on their own, avoiding warfare, practicing whatever trade they've gotten into. Drakons enjoy battle and little else. They were created to shape and fight by Barzahl, and, unlike serviles, they seem unable to move beyond those parameters. I would say even serviles are superior to drakons. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:53
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Emp: quote:Huh? The mere existence of Rebel Humans is not proof that they sympathize for the plight of the Drakons. The Rebel Humans have rebelled for two major reasons (sympathy for the plight of the serviles and/or just being sick of the way in which the Shapers dominate them.), yet I have yet to actually see any rebel humans state that the genocide of the drayk/drakon kind is the reason that they signed up to be a rebel. If you can find any human rebel who clearly sympathizes with the plight of the drayks/drakons, please post it! -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:00
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quote:Isn't it the drakons that convert Litalia after she is sent to destroy them. I can't remember her story exactly, but I think in game three she says that when she encounters the drakons they convince her to turn against the shapers. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:21
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quote:Very true. I didn't say it was impossible, jut hard. And the point is that you can't blame them for defending themselves. They don't just go around killing indiscriminately for the fun of it. Their violence is directed towards defeating their enemy. quote:What evidence do you have that they only enjoy battle? The picture I get from the encounters with the drakons is that they have no more or less depth than the human characters. The quotes and references in this thread from the game show this. If there was a quote that said something like, "You finally realize that all things considered, the drakons are only good for killing and hording," I would concede. Find it for me. quote:I do recall the servile tinkerers in the second or first game. I've also noticed that that kind of servile is nonexistant in this last one, as far as i can remember. Serviles are either obedient or rebellious. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:30
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ET's point was that the freeborn serviles had time to make art, even though they were in a much worse situation than the Drakons, who have a remote mountain base all too themselves. Drakons don't enjoy battle overmuch. There's the occasional fanatic, but the majority are too lazy and cunning to enjoy battle. There were several servile tinkerers/scavengers on Sucia, and there was even one that took care of creations for the Obeyers. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:38
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quote:I honestly don't remember the "freeborn serviles" that made time for art. One wonders where they are now. Probably dead. However remote the drakon base is, the shapers have made it to them. Sounds like a pretty bad situation to me. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:54
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Yes, but the Drakons had a good long time before the Shapers even knew where it was. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 17:16
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quote:The only hope that the drakons (and all the beings that have sided with them including humans) have is the unbound. Before they even complete them the shapers are on top of them. You think they should be focusing their efforts on starting a school of the performing arts. In actuality it has been shown that they did make time for art by making space for it in their compound. I guess it bears repeating for the zillionth time since making time for art while you're losing a battle on all fronts against a stronger enemy is somehow the measure of a society. Is there any other mention of art in this installment of the series, besides this one that applies to the drakons? I don't recall any. Think about it. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8165
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 17:42
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I think that we Drakons actually do plan on making our own rebel schools for teaching arts and such... I was thinking they would do this after we don't have to really worry about the shapers making any big moves any time soon. Akhari Blaze and Ghaldring might talk to me about it,seeing as I am third in command. :) err...um,or talk to jeff about G5... -------------------- R.R Posts: 179 | Registered: Friday, February 23 2007 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 18:07
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quote: quote:I call these claims unjustified. Waylander for some reason you love to bring up analogies considering the people of the Jewish faith. There is a slight problem with your analogy though. Jewish people aren't huge fire breathing monsters that harbor unsatable greed and a need for control of everything. Not only this, but Jewish people also don't have the ability to shape which they use very freely without much thought of concequence. I wonder if you'll actually answer this or ignore it like you have most of my posts. [ Tuesday, March 20, 2007 18:08: Message edited by: Retlaw May ] -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 18:27
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quote: quote:I call these claims unjustified.[/QB][/quote]I made two claims (1) they are not animalistic (2) they are not all bad. The rest of my quote is stuff that actually happens in the game. Those are used to support my claims. What exactly are you calling unjustified, my claims or the events that support them? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 18:48
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Retlew: quote:How the hell are they unjustified? Stillness has drawn on actual material from the games. If the Drakons don't have a sense of humour, why did they laugh at Salassdar when you make a fool out of him? If the Drakons don't have some sense of ethics, why do they disapprove of Salassdar's attempted assassination, despite many of the Drakon's clear contempt for humans? If you ask me, you're just sticking your fingers and in your ears and screaming "I can't hear you!" at the top of your voice whenever we draw upon relevant material. You pretend that anything that contradicts your worldview doesn't exist. quote:The only problems exist in your head. The analogy is quite fitting. quote:What's that got to do with anything? Tell me, do you support the notion of hunting down everyone with mutant powers in the X-Men world? Merely because someone has the 'potential' to be dangerous, they must be exterminated? Huh? quote:1. Neither you or Emp have proven such a thing. We've seen one or two Drakons who enjoy to hoard, whereas the rest seem pre-occupied with mounting a resistance against the Shapers. 2. And so what if the Drakons are greedy? It's said by many that quite a few Jews were greedy (in fact, it's a common stereotype). Since when does being greedy constitute an excuse for genocide? quote:1. Unsupported nonsense. 2. The Shapers have a need for the control of everything. So to remain consistent, you should support the Rebellion. quote:That's pedantic nonsense, and you know it. The only reason Drakon's shape so freely is because they are on the verge of extinction. Your drivel is the equivalent of a Nazi claiming "See, the Jews must be exterminated! They are a violent and disruptive people!" when the Jewish led an uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto. quote:I ignore your 'arguments' because they generally aren't worth my time. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 18:57
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quote:Of course it isn't going to say this, you need to figure some things out on your own, you know. I don't understand how much more clear it could have been. You only ever encounter fighters, single-minded machines. There is no depth to them. That kind of depth, which can even be found in simple little serviles, is just not there. Admit it. quote:Khima-Uss, or, as they like to call it, Khima. The leader there tells you the original intent of the founders of that town before the drakons took it over: "We chose a place out of the way. A place where those like me, who were tired of war, could come to work and find husbands and wives and try to live out life in peace, like proper creatures." So the drakons are not only incapable of living this way, but they have to ruin it for others, as well. quote:The entire Rebellion is based on greed. It is not based on survival, as Ghaldring spent time in hiding in between his 'birth' and his attack on Poryphra. They are places they can hide where the Shapers will not find them. It is not based on freedom either, since they treat other creations like crap. No, it is based on greed, not necisarily for wealth (although they do wear jewelry and live in luxury while others suffer) but also greed for land and power. quote:Is that your only comback? Lucky for me, I like to comeback with support. They declared marshal law in Khima-Uss, they designed the unbound (the only thing stronger than them) to die at their will, they let Southforge fall (it had no drakons, after all). And they are even facing dissention in their high command. Even with a 'visionary' leader like Ghaldring, some still want more. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 19:17
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Waylander, Drakons were flaming everything and using unrestricted shaping long before the Shapers knew of their existance. Is it just me or do hordes of treasure seem to be where Drakons nest? quote:I guess that none of this matters to you even though it had to do with much of the basis of your arguement at the time. ET: maybe we should start a tally of the amount of times Waylander expresses that there is no support for such things when he has expresses no reason for what he said. Maybe we'll finally pop his bubble just as I'd pop a cane toad. P.S. When you are attacked they aren't thinking of ethics, they are thinking of their personal image and their vanity to seem infalibility. This is just an educated guess, but I doubt anything would really have happened if you had been killed. P.P.S. Good news Waylander there is another thing that drives Drakons besides greed: vanity. [ Tuesday, March 20, 2007 19:20: Message edited by: Retlaw May ] -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 22:51
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quote:They are better shapers than the Shapers. A single-minded war machine cannot practice science. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. quote:I remember this now. This doesn't prove that drakons are incapable of living peacefully. They're not angels, but they're doing what armies at war do and doing it quite well. I guess they could just give up and be killed or run and hide for the rest of time. They've decided that the only option is to stand and fight. I don't see how any of this makes them inferior to humans. It should be noted that they actually do give ethical consideration to their tactics (the ones that the human part of the rebellion agree to and that the shapers take up when they start to see the tide turning). PC: "You really plan to destroy all life on Terrestia?"; Ghaldring: "Only all Shaper life. Of course, most of the rest of it will die. But our only other choice is losing this war. I suppose, from some perspectives, what we are doing is morally questionable. But it is the only choice." This does not sound like a "single-minded machine" with "no depth." Are drakons driven only by greed? "I will reward you." (He gives you a charm made of puresteel). "This is from my own personal hoard. A great honor for you." It has been noted accurately that arrogance is a drakon trait, but not all are arrogant beyond reason. Some seem to even have dislike for it. Ghaldring: "Salassar had grown too strong. Too arrogant." Teliamerus: "I am not the current bearer of the key. Scourge Vossizon is. That uselessss and arrogant specimen." "We drakonsss do not normally take titlesss. That she chose one for herself is a measure of her idiotic vanity and arrogance." "You should accept the duel and beat that arrogant reptile into the dirt." Oh yeah, I know how to find quotes now! Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |