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Avernum 1 in The Avernum Trilogy
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Member # 995
Profile #75
I don't follow all these forums very closely due to time constraints of work, but I do lurk around the newest game when it comes out :)
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Avernum 1 in The Avernum Trilogy
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Member # 995
Profile #73
er, I've had to change providers for silverchat.com and the new one doesn't get my email. but there's this nice "private message" feature on this forum. or silverkitty23 (at) yahoo (dot) com.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Insert Random Nethergate: Resurrection Questions Here in Nethergate
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Member # 995
Profile #14
quote:
Originally written by Haemotode:

1: In E1 Wands of Carrunos have a range of 0 and are therefore useless. In all other Spiderweb games they make enemies stronger. I didn't check in N:R, but I assume the result is more health and possibly buffs for your foes. Don't use the wand.

out of curiosity, wouldn't using the wand on a foe increase the experience reward for killing it?
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #284
This thread now falls under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law[/url] . two or three times.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Chili con quessa-uss in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #2
the eyebeast is behind the blue circle in the NE.
you can check this doing showmeall in the level.
--
the pink circled door in the lab just connects to the pink circled door in the big room, it's there for "this is how the drakons would get back and forth 'realism'" but it's not meant for you and I to use :)
--
the SE doors, they don't lead to squat. or, rather, they lead to "the rest of quessa-uss," where the Drakons live... filed under "not appearing in this adventure"
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Something I never understood in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #25
quote:
Originally written by Sir Spiff:

You needn't ride them in battle. You'd just have to get off during the fight. Or duck.
Oh, if you want hoplars instead of cavalry, then fine -- your wish is granted: you already have a horse -- your characters have always had horses since GF 1. You just ride them when you travel between zones, but each zone is a combat area, so you tie the horses up at the zone edge...

[ Wednesday, March 28, 2007 03:29: Message edited by: -silver- ]
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Something I never understood in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #14
I just have to giggle whenever I see people write, or hear people say, "how hard can it be?"

Small changes to code are never as straightforward as one thinks they should be - subtle new interactions crop up all over the place (just ONE example, purely off the top of my head: does your new script now perhaps allow people to skip encounters by killing their steed in the right place and re-spawning outside the rectange? well, gotta test for it to make sure...)

Small changes to game balance are never as straightforward as one thinks they should be, either (just ONE example, not definitive, not complete. refuting it doesn't "win" anything. all the really good examples wouldn't be discovered until beta testing after its implemented, anyway, but: do steeds give the player more AP? if not, then how are they "faster"? if they do, then haven't you just made the player into a minor demigod?)
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #238
actually, I emphasized "drakons" in that quote because of this exchange on page 4.

Suspicious Vlish wrote "Then why would Ghaldring mention that he would use the Unbound to shelter the Rebel creations/humans in the mountains? If he had no empathy for the lesser races, why would he make such an irrelevant comment?"

to which Tullegolar replied, "Ghaldring is a liar. He'll say anything to prove his point. Does it even make sense for the Unbound to protect something? It was very clear that they blindly destroy, and are incapable of much else."

to which Stillness replied, "He strikes me as too honorable to lie like that. ...
He is not lying. The Unbound are directed by the Drakons and can be stopped by them as well. They do the job exactly as promised. I think you're just making up stuff at this point."

---

so I pointed out that in the game, Ghaldring never claimed the Unbound were going to shelter jack squat. He said the drakons would do the sheltering.

Tullegolar was correct to say that a misquote started a thread where Unbound were portrayed as and then refuted as protectors. I quoted a bit of Ghaldring's speech in an attempt to quell that subtopic. I said as much just a few posts ago. We can drop this subtopic now :)

[ Monday, March 26, 2007 00:02: Message edited by: -silver- ]
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Something I never understood in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #9
the tactical advantages of cavalry over infantry only hold in pre-gunpowder armies. since then, guerilla warfare has ruled whenever applied. think of shaping as gunpowder.

(edit: before someone jumps on me: to be fair, I left out years of gunpowder armies which included major cavalry divisions... but those armies were using guns as fancy crossbows and trying to keep the old style. until the American revolution showed them up so badly... and on the other side of history, I left out that before the the invention of the stirrup, cavalry weren't particularly useful - the roman army used cavalry for mop up and show, but the phalanx was tremendously more powerful. the history of warfare is rather more complex than I am putting in this post, and I shall have to suffice to say that cavalry had its moment, but wasn't always superior to infantry, and didn't remain superior to infantry forever).

(edit 2: the shapers aren't joking when they say "a single shaper IS an army". just look at how much the player destroys over the course of a game. put my opponents on horseback, and they'll just die faster because they'll get closer to me sooner. in range of my fyoras and daze spells, or my drayks and essence orbs, or my wingbolts and aura of flames (depending on the chapter :) )).

[ Sunday, March 25, 2007 23:44: Message edited by: -silver- ]
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
So we wasted 3 whole games??? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #13
I think the analogy is that Shaping is like nuclear or biological weapons. even libertarians are for a limits to such crazy powerful weaponry. the trakovite cause IS the libertarian cause -- no one can be free to live their lives how they like while everyone is tossing nukes.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #235
I'm not arguing that they are superior. I'm arguing that the use of superior/inferior is a false dichotomy.

I believe that the race of drakons is a race of individuals - some of whom are good, some of whom are evil. Just like the humans. I summarized my argument back on page 4 of this thread "overall, the combination of these quotes is a stalemate to the argument. Neither side is more or less powerful, and neither is more or less capable of evil and good, or of brutality and art, or of arrogance and compassion. It all comes down to the individuals."

(aside: I emphasized drakons in that quote because somewhere I had read something about unbound guarding people and someone saying "I don't think the unbound would be very good guards" and I was pointing out that it was the drakons, not the unbound, who were going to do the guarding)
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
So we wasted 3 whole games??? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #7
neither side can "win", I don't think, and meet JV's vision as I understand it.

if I may spoil, the gf4 shaper ending speaks of _centuries_ of peace and the final words are "until the next rebellion."
that's not a good jumping off board for the next-game-as-a-final-game because it's no more compelling than just starting over with gf1.

on the other hand, the rebel ending of gf4 ends with the shapers and drakons in the moral equivalent of an ongoing biological war, escalating constantly with nothing but devastation for all the "regular people" around, and the final words are "who can bring the peace?"
That's a new and compelling premise for gf5. ergo, I conclude that the "real ending" of this one is the rebel ending or a close modification thereof - it's the ending that gives gf5 a way to go somewhere new in the series, and a way to end the series (clearly, the new hero of gf5 must be instrumental in finding a way to bring the peace).
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #202
when you enter quessa-uss it says:

"It all looks recently constructed, hastily built by drakons, serviles, and magic. There are empty depressions in the walls, waiting for mosaics or other artwork. The touches of luxury are waiting until after the war ends."

My assumption based on that description is that drakons did design, maybe lifted some of the heavier things that serviles couldn't, and performed magic as part of the construction. The serviles were likely relegated to hauling bricks and boards. I say that because the drakon arrogance implies to me that they wouldn't trust the serviles with designing a home for drakons.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #171
(just as a historical side-note: in Caesar's Rome, 'dictator' was a specific title granted by the Senate with specific duties and responsibilities -- while the word is the root of the modern word 'dictator', it meant Significantly different in nuance then than it does now).
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #168
I'm personally enjoying how the anti-Drakon arguer keeps dismissing things as ruses or lies by the Drakons. The argument seems to go that we have to accept every other quote in the game as a fact, except the ones inconvenient to his argument. If you open up the "game quotes aren't evidence because they might be lies" can of worms, it applies both ways. Then we don't know if Barzhal created anything ever, or if he just claims to. We don't know if the serviles built Khima, or if they just claim to. Suddenly, we don't know anything anymore, it might ALL be lies. It completely dissolves the ability to quote the game for _either side_ to start dismissing _some_ quotes, but not others, as lies.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
So we wasted 3 whole games??? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #2
there are multiple endings. the shapers can win gf4, or they can lose. your choice.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
If you could be any creation... in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #40
I was on topic. I was saying that one of the choices was a wimpy choice because it requires no decision making :)

Off topic would be, "since I've been reading and spelling drayk wrong all this time as 'dryak', now that I accept that correction, I no longer have any idea how to _pronounce_ the word. unless it's just a 'fancy spelling' of 'drake'?"
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Oh, so the Shapers are more ethical, are they now? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #24
I agree. You can debate whatever regardless of the author's intent.

I also happen to think that the evidence of the game supports the authors intentions rather well in this particular case, and it's not correct to say one side is more or less ethical than the other, but to discuss the individuals on those sides.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
If you could be any creation... in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #38
quote:
Originally written by Infernal Flamming Muffin:

Anyway, why not a mixture? Thats what I went with in my poll.
because that option doesn't force you to make any hard choices?
"I choose mixture of: the strength of a war trall; the zap attack of a wingbolt; the breath, slowing, and shaping abilities of an ur-drakon; the terror attack of a terror vlish; the acid touch of a rothgroth; the stunning touch of a glaahk; the kill attack of a gazer; the hitponts and aura attack of the eyebeast; the cold breath of a cryodryak; the speed of a clawbug; and the servile's ability to use enchanted devices. thanks."

I chose dryak :)

[ Tuesday, March 20, 2007 08:08: Message edited by: -silver- ]
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #128
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

And back on the Eyebeast matter, those at the Radiant college designed the Eyebeast . Do you think they just said "Oh, maybe if you just change this gene and this gene..." No, all was the advances were random changes to see what worked. The Takers improved the design and made most of the ones your character talks to .
We are given no evidence to support that the original eyebeast design was incapable of speech/sapience. And in no way we are told what the "improvements" on the design were - for all we know, the eyebeast you talk to is merely more deadly, but equally as smart as the originals. Or maybe something else has changed. We simply do not know. All we are told for sure is that Barzhal made the original.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Oh, so the Shapers are more ethical, are they now? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #17
and, I honestly think, if a young child stood before Ghaldring or his followers, based on his other speeches and actions, I think the drakon would probably just shoo the child off.

before Salassar or his followers, the child would likely be dead. But, then, there are some shapers who would sympathy for a young Drakon, as well.

why can't people understand Jeff's point, "Nobody in Geneforge 4 is as evil as they seem. Or as good." and that it comes down to the individual, not the species or sect, how someone will act?
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Oh, so the Shapers are more ethical, are they now? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Profile #6
It's possible that Drakons are just as ethical - they do claim that they will absorb the Unbound and make saner creations once they're no longer in danger of being genocided. We just don't know because we haven't seen the Drakons in power (yet?).

But, more likely, it probably comes down to some Drakons being ethical and some evil, just like the Shapers. All down to the individuals. I seem to recall JV's own hints for the game saying, "Nobody in Geneforge 4 is as evil as they seem. Or as good."

[ Monday, March 19, 2007 01:53: Message edited by: -silver- ]
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #97
some more random quotes:

("The Unbound are hard to control?")
"_They have a ... a tendency to attack. Anything nearby. Thisss makesss them dangerousss. Once the Shapersss are gone and western Terrestia hasss been leveled, we will absorb the Unbound and then modify them to make them more sensible._";

("How will you get them to western Terrestia if they are so unpredictable?")
"_We can control them to some extent, with great effort. Enough for the journey to Quessa-Uss, and then west._";

"As [the Unbound] enter, you can sense the will of the drakons to the south. They are exerting themselves to control the minds of their creations. It is a constant struggle, even for them. You can sense their strain."

The drakon Karikiss shouts, _Enough._ Instantly, you can sense the minds of the drakons again. They are struggling to regain control of the Unbound. But they aren't succeeding. The Unbound continue to strike at you.";
"The drakons start to grow alarmed. For a moment, you begin to worry that you are going to be trapped in here with the things. Then Karikiss shouts, _All right. Finish them._"
"You sense something else, a different energy. The Unbound stop moving. They are frozen. Then they begin to decay before your eyes. There is a foul smell. Ooze flows out of cracks in their skin. Soon, they will be dead."

"You watch, horrified, as Greta crumples to the ground. The drakons note her passing without the slightest bit of emotion. One of the heroes of the rebellion has been cut down simply to test one of their creations." (emphasis mine)

---

they can only barely control the Unbound. sometimes. Though they have a kill switch.
They feel nothing for non-Drakons.

---

Quessa-Uss:

"It all looks recently constructed, hastily built by drakons, serviles, and magic. There are empty depressions in the walls, waiting for mosaics or other artwork. The touches of luxury are waiting until after the war ends."

---

description of the Unbound:

"It is a drakon, but unlike any you have ever seen. It glows. Powerful heat radiates from it, enough that it would probably burn you if you touched it. Whoever created it filled it with all the pure, uncontrolled power they could."
"And, as with all Shaping, there was a trade-off. In return for power, they gave up sanity. They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill." (emphasis mine)
"This drakon is unbound, free of all the controls normally put on creations. It is a pure weapon, designed to unleash uncontrolled havoc wherever it is placed."

---

never does it say that the Unbound are supposed to shelter people. Ghaldring says, "_Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers._" (emphasis mine)

---

but note in the Rebel ending, the arrogance of the Drakons only increases. And there is no mention of peace to be found - only total chaotic war, with the Shaper making creations the equal of the Unbound -- now that they find their survival in question, we discover that it was only the Shaper ethics that kept them from creating beings so powerful.

---

overall, the combination of these quotes is a stalemate to the argument. Neither side is more or less powerful, and neither is more or less capable of evil and good, or of brutality and art, or of arrogance and compassion. It all comes down to the individuals.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #93
the quote you're looking for is in the entrance to gray ghost gates:
"The pass ahead is blocked by massive stone gates. They are recently built, and they bear the marks of drakon architecture. Unadorned, huge, stone, and hastily made using magic and servile labor."

Drakon architecture is "unadorned" and "hastily made with magic and servile labor"
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Member # 995
Profile #81
quote:

Again, no. It's been demonstrated time and time again that individuals who are Shaped are still capable of empathy (Lilita, Trajkov). Try again.

rare exceptions, and noted as such.

quote:
So Aura of Flames canisters were present in GF1? And Kill canisters?
there were canisters for every spell present in the game. there still are. it's like comparing a cd with version 1 of some software to a cd with version 2 of the program and saying, "wow, cds have gotten better".

arguably, the introduction of canister side-effects in geneforge 2 means that the canister technology has gotten noticably worse. (but in actuality probably represents JV making the game closer represent his original vision).
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00

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