Are Drakons superior beings?

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AuthorTopic: Are Drakons superior beings?
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #225
Diki: You're talking about a high combat zone, plenty of both Shapers and Rebels, so of course there will be chaos and loose creations. Plus, the servile you meet there explains that rebels have been disguising themselves as civilians to place mines.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #226
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Diki: You're talking about a high combat zone, plenty of both Shapers and Rebels, so of course there will be chaos and loose creations. Plus, the servile you meet there explains that rebels have been disguising themselves as civilians to place mines.
Of course! If the Rebels launched an all out assault that doomed Illya, again, then the exact same thing would happen on both sides. Not to mention, the Shapers didn't know that the civilians weren't Rebels.

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Pass the sauerkraut and chips please.
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Warrior
Member # 8285
Profile #227
Us older drackons aren't completely spiteful of the lesser creatures. I must say that I find there are a number of assumptions about us which are just that. Assumptions. How can you fault us for being focused on the war? If we lose our entire race will be exterminated! Who is to say that the shapers wouldn't decide that serviles are too prone to rebellion. After the war it is likely that the serviles will be exterminated to be replaced by even meeker servents. Also most the serviles you talk to in drackon lands are happy and intelligent. Granted some are sad and beaten but those are by the hot young bloods and after the war there will be plenty of time to discipline our children. I must say you are very close minded. We have done NOTHING worse than the shapers and we are the ones in danger of being totally wiped out, not them. After the war is won we may revise our treatment of the lessers...if they prove their worth. Until then we shall treat them as favored pets and minions for they have proven themselves no better.

On the matter of us stopping rogues. The Unbound have a failsafe to protect us. We keep our rogues from killing everything. When Greta and her companions fought our prototypes we stopped the Unbound after they had proven their worth. We will not let rogues trouble those loyal to us. Thank you for hearing my points. I hope you learned more about our philosphy

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A duke is just a duke but you see, I am "The Duke"
Posts: 65 | Registered: Saturday, March 10 2007 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #228
Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Diki: You're talking about a high combat zone, plenty of both Shapers and Rebels, so of course there will be chaos and loose creations. Plus, the servile you meet there explains that rebels have been disguising themselves as civilians to place mines.
The servile says, "Some rebels and bad people fought back when they came here. They are gone now, and creations were left." The rebels are mostly gone, but the creations are still running loose (or, quite possibly, they weren't even unleashed until the rebels were mostly gone). If the Shapers really cared about the innocents, they'd have the 31st regiment that is sitting right there protect the area instead of uncontrolled creations or they would have evacuated all the people before they released the creations.

And it would be tricky to tell the difference between innocents and rebels. But if the Shapers don't care (and it's pretty clear they don't in this particular instance) how many civilians they have to kill to be sure they got all the rebels, they aren't any better than the drakons and their unbound.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #229
Are most of the serviles you meet actually happy under the footclaw of the Rebellion?

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #230
quote:
Originally written by BLACK HAZE.:

waylander,you have them on ignore for what reason? If i may ask.
Some may believe that humans are superior to drakons, but I don't believe that Emp does. I could be wrong, but I think he's debating for the sake of debating and riling up anyone he can for the fun of it. He's got one or two legitimate points. The rest is fluff (e.g. lies, twisting of facts, ignoring valid points, repeating arguments that have been falsified, distractions, etc.). For example, the fact that drakons show kindness and even a self-sacrificing spirit is problematic for him, so when presented with quotes and incidents directly from the game where they do he says they don't exist.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Ghaldring says he wants to protect the serviles with the Unbound?
It has already been pointed out twice that this was someone's misquote. It's not that Ghaldring was lying, it's that he simply never said this.

Not only does he lie about Ghaldring not saying he was going to protect creations, but he implies that someone else pointed out that it was a misquote twice (which never happened) to add weight to his lie. Notice the quote directly from the game:

"Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers."

He was also reminded that the drakons helped at the cairn gates. Here is the relevant exchange:


Warmaster Karikiss:"You humansss are our alliesss, but we do not serve you. We will rather die than serve humansss again. We have done you a great service here, at risk to ourselvesss. Now we go."

PC: "Before you go, could you lower this field? I have several serviles I need to escort to safety."

The drakon and the serviles look irritated, but it was wise to let them know that the lives of creations were at stake. The drakon says, "All right. I think we know where the controlsss are. We will deal with it."


Now for Emp's fluff after these incidents were pointed out to him:

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Claims that the drakons show empathy are unfounded. They treat other creations, humans, and even each other like crap...The opposition has yet to give an example of a time when drakons helped someone other than themselves when it was not to their own immediate benefit.
It's funny to me. It's unfortunate that Waylander let him "get his goat."
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #231
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Not only does he lie about Ghaldring not saying he was going to protect creations, but he implies that someone else pointed out that it was a misquote twice (which never happened) to add weight to his lie.
Here is the first time:
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

never does it say that the Unbound are supposed to shelter people. Ghaldring says, "_Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers._" (emphasis mine)
The second time was me repeating this. Don't call me a liar unless you know what you're talking about, please.

As for the Drakon at the Cairne Gates, note that it says he is irritated by your request. He does not want to help you because he is feeling empathic, otherwise, why would he be irritated? No, it would have said they looked concerned. He wasn't concerned, though, so he much more likely agreed to help you because serviles are a valuable labor and fighting resource. He is pragmatic, not empathic.

I still think the most powerful quote used so far in this thread is the one where Greta is killed by the unbound and it specifically says that the drakons remain emotionless. You say I ignore quotes, what do you have to say about that one?

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #232
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Here is the first time:
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

never does it say that the Unbound are supposed to shelter people. Ghaldring says, "_Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers._" (emphasis mine)
The second time was me repeating this. Don't call me a liar unless you know what you're talking about, please.

You emphasised the wrong part. Try the seven words immediately after that.

quote:
No, it would have said they looked concerned. He wasn't concerned, though, so he much more likely agreed to help you because serviles are a valuable labor and fighting resource. He is pragmatic, not empathic.
By that argument, you could say that humans have no capacity for empathy either, since anyone whom anyone helped could conceivably turn out to be a useful resource in future.

quote:
I still think the most powerful quote used so far in this thread is the one where Greta is killed by the unbound and it specifically says that the drakons remain emotionless. You say I ignore quotes, what do you have to say about that one?
All that proves is that they don't particularly care about Greta. Remember, you're trying to prove a negative existential claim here: that there is nobody about whom drakons care. That means that even one instance of a drakon caring about somebody invalidates your claim, while any instance in which a drakon doesn't care about somebody proves nothing one way or the other.

[ Saturday, March 24, 2007 22:07: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #233
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

You emphasised the wrong part.
It wasn't my emphasis. I would have emphasised the "in the Greyghost Mountains" part. There is no way that they mean to evacuate all of Western Terretsia to those mountains. Even it it was possible to evacuate a continent, they would just use Illya or Burwood. They most likley meant that they were going to protect the creations already in the mountains. I'd say so far my "negative existential claim" stands.

That reminds me, it would be great is someone could sum up the superiority arguement like I did for my own claims. You guys have spent so much time defending that they are equal to humans (empathy, art) that you've given little reasoning for why they are actually superior, as was initially claimed.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #234
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

That reminds me, it would be great is someone could sum up the superiority arguement like I did for my own claims. You guys have spent so much time defending that they are equal to humans (empathy, art) that you've given little reasoning for why they are actually superior, as was initially claimed.
I wasn't ever claiming anything in the first place. I just come here to point out where other people go wrong.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Cartographer
Member # 995
Profile #235
I'm not arguing that they are superior. I'm arguing that the use of superior/inferior is a false dichotomy.

I believe that the race of drakons is a race of individuals - some of whom are good, some of whom are evil. Just like the humans. I summarized my argument back on page 4 of this thread "overall, the combination of these quotes is a stalemate to the argument. Neither side is more or less powerful, and neither is more or less capable of evil and good, or of brutality and art, or of arrogance and compassion. It all comes down to the individuals."

(aside: I emphasized drakons in that quote because somewhere I had read something about unbound guarding people and someone saying "I don't think the unbound would be very good guards" and I was pointing out that it was the drakons, not the unbound, who were going to do the guarding)
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Warrior
Member # 8285
Profile #236
This forum is getting to be very redundent.

[ Sunday, March 25, 2007 11:23: Message edited by: Warmaster Kermanuiouss ]

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A duke is just a duke but you see, I am "The Duke"
Posts: 65 | Registered: Saturday, March 10 2007 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #237
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Not only does he lie about Ghaldring not saying he was going to protect creations, but he implies that someone else pointed out that it was a misquote twice (which never happened) to add weight to his lie.
Here is the first time:
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

never does it say that the Unbound are supposed to shelter people. Ghaldring says, "_Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers._" (emphasis mine)
The second time was me repeating this. Don't call me a liar unless you know what you're talking about, please.

Waylander said that the drakons were going to protect the "lesser races" (seemingly implying that humans would be included). Silver listed the above quote where Ghaldring states his intention to protect the "lesser beings," making the distiction that people would not be included (which is debatable as the drakons view humans as an inferior beings). Waylander later says that drakons are going to protect the serviles. In response you make the statement above: "It has already been pointed out twice that this was someone's misquote. It's not that Ghaldring was lying, it's that he simply never said this." This is a boldfaced lie.

quote:
Originally written by Warmaster Kermanuiouss:

This forum is getting to be very redundent.
It's way beyond redundant. In my opinion Emp's tactics have caused it to be as such. For anyone truly interested in understanding how the drakons feel about humans and creations the complete exchange between the PC and Warmaster Karakiss at the Cairn gates is very telling.

Emp, your pants are on fire! :P
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Cartographer
Member # 995
Profile #238
actually, I emphasized "drakons" in that quote because of this exchange on page 4.

Suspicious Vlish wrote "Then why would Ghaldring mention that he would use the Unbound to shelter the Rebel creations/humans in the mountains? If he had no empathy for the lesser races, why would he make such an irrelevant comment?"

to which Tullegolar replied, "Ghaldring is a liar. He'll say anything to prove his point. Does it even make sense for the Unbound to protect something? It was very clear that they blindly destroy, and are incapable of much else."

to which Stillness replied, "He strikes me as too honorable to lie like that. ...
He is not lying. The Unbound are directed by the Drakons and can be stopped by them as well. They do the job exactly as promised. I think you're just making up stuff at this point."

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so I pointed out that in the game, Ghaldring never claimed the Unbound were going to shelter jack squat. He said the drakons would do the sheltering.

Tullegolar was correct to say that a misquote started a thread where Unbound were portrayed as and then refuted as protectors. I quoted a bit of Ghaldring's speech in an attempt to quell that subtopic. I said as much just a few posts ago. We can drop this subtopic now :)

[ Monday, March 26, 2007 00:02: Message edited by: -silver- ]
Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #239
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

Tullegolar was correct to say that a misquote started a thread where Unbound were portrayed as and then refuted as protectors. I quoted a bit of Ghaldring's speech in an attempt to quell that subtopic. I said as much just a few posts ago. We can drop this subtopic now :)
Honestly I didn't even understand the initial exchange on page 4 until now. I understood him as describing the unbound as protectors in that they would kill the enemy while the rebels would be kept safe. That's what I was defending.

Here's the problem silver: waylander said on page 8 that the drakons were going to protect the serviles. Emp then resurrected this exchange to refute him. That's what I am referring to as a lie. Even after I pointed this out and requoted from the game he still won't acknowledge he's wrong, so it's not an honest mistake. It's a warning to you and anyone else reasonable that you cannot win with him. You will just spin your wheels.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #240
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

waylander said on page 8 that the drakons were going to protect the serviles. Emp then resurrected this exchange to refute him. That's what I am referring to as a lie.
quote:
What Waylander actually said:
Ghaldring says he wants to protect the serviles with the Unbound? Why, he must be lying, because Drakons don't feel empathy! Hence there is no evidence that suggests that Drakons feel empathy!
I resurrected it because Waylander implied that I was calling Ghaldring a liar for no reason. Do you understand now why the quote was relevant? Now, do you have something useful to contribute ( a summary of the opposing argument like the one I made would be nice) or are we done here?

[ Monday, March 26, 2007 06:35: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Canned
Member # 7704
Profile #241
Drakons fight for freedom and for the understanding and compression they need they speak, feel pain and understand like we do.
In this game i'd rather call them the infants of mankind that became very rotten.
Have you ever wonder why an infant calls for attention from his parents?
I'd think that the drakon are doing the same thing.
Just like hitler they expose family matters on to the hole world.
That makes them very dangerous in deed.

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You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how .
Posts: 312 | Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #242
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Do you understand now why the quote was relevant? Now, do you have something useful to contribute ( a summary of the opposing argument like the one I made would be nice) or are we done here?
Actually I do understand now. I still wasn't clear on the technical distinction you were making. But, Ghaldring is saying that he intends on protecting the serviles with the unbound. He will use them to stop those that would kill the lesser beings while the lesser beings remain sheltered. That was the point from the beginning. No one said the unbound will be standing in a circle holding hands with the serviles in the middle. They will protect by killing the enemy. It's not a direct quote, but it is what Ghaldring is saying. Your statement that he never said it is at best a half-truth. And a half-truth is a whole lie. No hard feelings from this end, but it is what it is.

I don't have the time to make a nice summary atm. My contribution is making clear what anyone that choses to disagree whith you is up against. In doing that I have also listed a quote directly from the game when a drakon at the cairn says, "We have done you a great service here, at risk to ourselvesss." The full exchange let's you know why the drakons and serviles are irritated by your request - they don't like taking orders, especially from humans because "their suffering at the hands of the Shapers have left them understandably wary of all humans." That being said the drakons have responded immediately to Litalia's (a human) request for help here even though they feel they have more important business. An honest look at things make it clear that drakons have emotions, including empathy. That is why they do lower the field.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #243
Stillness:
quote:

He will use them to stop those that would kill the lesser beings while the lesser beings remain sheltered.

Yes, that was precisely my point. The very reason that the Drakons and creations will be able to hide in the mountains is because the Unbound will be doing the dirty work in the front lines.

I must have mentioned this about 10 times, and yet some people are still grappling with the concept.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #244
The Unbound do not protect innocents. In the rebel ending, Akhari-Blaze tells them to "destroy everything you find." It says that even though the human and serviles parts of the rebellion plead with them to find another way (because of how many innocents are dying), the drakons ignore them. The rebel ending really does provide a good look at how bloodthirsty and heartless these creatures are, as well as how hungry for power they are (they become increasingly arrogant and tighten their grip on the non-drakon members of the rebellion).

As for the Cairne Gates drakon. People who are helping someone else out of sympathy do not consider what they are doing a "service." That word is a dead give away. He does not care for those he is helping, he is helping them because he has to.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #245
quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

I must have mentioned this about 10 times, and yet some people are still grappling with the concept.
Give us another 6 pages of dialogue - we'll get it.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

As for the Cairne Gates drakon. People who are helping someone else out of sympathy do not consider what they are doing a "service." That word is a dead give away. He does not care for those he is helping, he is helping them because he has to.
Brilliant! Most of us are doing our best to read between the lines. You see the lines between the lines and read between those. I see why they call you emperor.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #246
Still:
quote:

Give us another 6 pages of dialogue - we'll get it.

I think the majority of posters here (including you) do 'get it'. It's just a couple of the more stubborn ones which seem to be a little confused.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #247
Maybe you should check the poll and see what the majority really thinks.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 8390
Profile #248
Humans created drayks. Drayks created drakons. The question becomes, which is superior: creator or created?

Let's assess this question. God created humans... In this case, my definition of "God" is a tautology caused by the impossibility of infinite time, an "uncaused cause," and as such, the Big Bang could fall under my definition of God. Anywho, God created humans. Thus he is creator and we are created. The United States of America is composed of humans. Nothing is better than the U.S. of A., which means humans are the supreme existence in all of the cosmose, even greater than God.

Therefore creation trumps creator. That makes drakons superior to drayks who are superior to humans. Drakons win.

Extra Credit: Count the glaring logical fallacies.
Posts: 37 | Registered: Tuesday, March 27 2007 07:00
Lifecrafter
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Profile #249
Sorry Tullegolar, he's even more brillianter than you. *crowns sir spiff as new emperor*
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00

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