Are Drakons superior beings?

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AuthorTopic: Are Drakons superior beings?
Warrior
Member # 8165
Profile #100
scourge vossion

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R.R
Posts: 179 | Registered: Friday, February 23 2007 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #101
Oooh. Good point about that instructor ET!

It still seems likely to me that the Takers were the first ones to successfully make Gazers -- given that nobody claims the converse, and we meet plenty of Taker-made eyes but none crafted by Barzahl. But clearly, that knowledge spread or was duplicated.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #102
I kinda feel invisable here, but the point is that the people of the Radiant College were the first to create Gazers and that the Takers later refined the process.

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #103
What in the world would suggest that, Invisible Retlaw?

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #104
Probably the fact that everyone says the Barzites designed them yet no one says directly that the Takers make the first ones.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #105
Yes, but there are multiple sources who state that the Barzites simply didn't know how to make them. Clearly, that has changed by the time the PC is running around. But we still only meet Taker-made Gazers. At best you can suggest that the Takers and Barzites made them more or less at the same time, but it seems like a stretch to argue that the Barzites made them first.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #106
I don't understand how you can design something without creating it. What did he do, draw pictures?

It seems like creations are made through trial and error. They would make changes, and observe outcomes. I don't think you can just design a creation and then make it happen.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #107
Barzahl and his researchers probably made several attempts at creating a prototype gazer, but none of them were workable, and the resulting gazer was dead, crippled, or too weak. The Takers figured out what was wrong with the design and then made the first ones.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #108
The first successful ones. Then they were killed by the Barzites and further improved.

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #109
Where are you getting that from, Nalyd?

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #110
He's probably assuming it, a reasonable assumtion, I think. If the Barzites created the first ones, they would have noted their resistance to control, destroyed them, and stopped making them. That's probably why the gazers you speak to say only the Takers make them, because even though the Barzites clearly can, they don't anymore. That's also why the Takers are better at making them, because the Barzites gave up on them, probably seeing them as a failure.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #111
Why are we still having this argument? Silver provided quotes which strongly suggest that while Barzhal designed the Gazer, the Takers were the first to actually successfully Shape it.

And Emp, you point out the existence of Gazer canisters when the the hero arrives in Drypeak. May I point out that all these canisters were in Taker lands? This seems to suggest that the Gazer canisters were a product of the Takers.

Barzhal 'might' have left the canisters there, although I find that a little hard to believe. Barzhal might be arrogant, be he's pretty clever. There's no way he'd leave such powerful canisters behind.

[ Sunday, March 18, 2007 13:27: Message edited by: Waylander ]

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #112
The Barzites didn't stop making them. One of them says "we haven't made many YET."

[ Sunday, March 18, 2007 13:19: Message edited by: 227 Chitrachballons ]

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #113
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

overall, the combination of these quotes is a stalemate to the argument. Neither side is more or less powerful, and neither is more or less capable of evil and good, or of brutality and art, or of arrogance and compassion. It all comes down to the individuals.
yes
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #114
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

And Emp, you point out the existence of Gazer canisters when the the hero arrives in Drypeak. May I point out that all these canisters were in Taker lands? This seems to suggest that the Gazer canisters were a product of the Takers.
When did I say that? No, I said 'no canisters required.' The Barzites know how to create gazers well enough to teach your character two levels of it. That seems like skill to me.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #115
That doesn't mean that the Barzites knew how to create Gazers before the Takers...

It's mentioned time and time again in the game (as Silver posted), that while Barzhal had the idea, the Takers were the first to actually capitalize on it, and create a Gazer.

All in all, I see the Gazer as a 'joint venture'. Barzhal was the architect, the Drakons were the builders who brought his idea to life. They are both pretty awesome.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #116
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Me: Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed.
Stillness: Where do you get this from?
Name one drakon that did not fit into one of these catagories.
[/QB]
Did you read silver's post? Let me requote:

quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

"It is a drakon, but unlike any you have ever seen. It glows. Powerful heat radiates from it, enough that it would probably burn you if you touched it. Whoever created it filled it with all the pure, uncontrolled power they could."
"And, as with all Shaping, there was a trade-off. In return for power, they gave up sanity. They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill." (emphasis mine)

Note the "and skill" part. It refers to shaping. Drakons can be skilled shapers. Also, you ignore that Ghaldring showed himself to be a skilled politician. The drakon you meet while escorting the rebel caravan, warmaster karkiss (sp?) i think, shows compassion on the serviles with you by lowering the electical field.

So there are a couple of names for you and three things that are not war and greed: shaping, compassion, politics.

BTW I can't remember drakons being referred to as greedy. I know that drayks horde, but I can't seem to remember drakons doing the same. Am I forgetting something? Or are you making things up again?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #117
Hahahaha! Stillness have you even played the last 3 Geneforge games? If you even played to a point where you meet the first Drakon you would know that they are much worse horders than drayks. Also, Drakons don't show compassion. Politics is just an ends to achieve what they want driven by their greed.

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #118
What's wrong with you guys?

Greed is NOT a common Drakon trait. There is only one Drakon with such characteristics, and he the one who alters you in GF3, and sells you canisters in GF4 (I've forgotten his name...).

He admits that he is ostracized from his kind, precisely because of his greed. He's only interested in personal wealth, not in fighting for the Rebel cause. Hence his fellow Drakons shun him.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #119
quote:
Waylander:
There is only one Drakon with such characteristics
Is this a joke? Ever been to the Taker Toll Road in Geneforge 2? A female drakon stands there, surrounded on all sides by her gathered wealth. That's just one, and there are more as well, mostly unnamed ones with piles of treasure in their lairs.

No matter how you look at it, everything drakons do is motivated directly by either greed or pure aggression.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #120
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

Hahahaha! Stillness have you even played the last 3 Geneforge games? If you even played to a point where you meet the first Drakon you would know that they are much worse horders than drayks.
Yeah, a lot of times I don't remember the little details. I remember when you all point them out. The drakons greed is not as notable to me as their arrogance. It certainly isn't focused on as much in this last game. That's why I forgot.

quote:
Also, Drakons don't show compassion.
Definitely not their strong point, but it's been shown where they have. Not to humans, but to their fellow creations. I don't know how to pull quotes from the game, but see my above post. The humans don't show a great deal of compassion either, though. Someone quoted to show that the Drakons didn't care when Greta died. My response is to ask do Shapers care or feel compassion when they absorb/kill those they view as inferior and no longer of use? How does the Shaper at the checkpoint respond when Sandia has a change of heart and comes back to him?

The Shaper empire is based off of lack of compassion. They actually train initiates to be callous and they don't qualify to be a Shaper unless they are. That's why Litalia left.

quote:
Politics is just an ends to achieve what they want driven by their greed.
That's the definition of politics! That's exactly what humans do. Are the shapers known for sharing their wealth and power? Are they known for their humility? The point is they they are not just dumb animals only capable of fighting and hording. And they are not driven by greed so much as their desire to live and defeat those that would wipe out their race without mercy or compassion. One can't blame them so much for that. They may be natural horders and naturally arrogant, but they hate humans because they were hated first.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

No matter how you look at it, everything drakons do is motivated directly by either greed or pure aggression.
You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You are ignoring all reason and direct quotes from the game. While I disagree with Waylander, he is at least reasonable and will admit it when shown to be in error.

I will say this, if you think humans are any better than drakons or vice versa. you are missing what I see as the major theme of all the games, and the thing that makes them so compelling and true-to-life: The dual nature of man. Humanity has beutiful ideals - freedom, justice, equality. When these are trampled upon by other men we feel the strong need to right the wrongs. The hypocrisy is that while reaching to achieve the ideals, we are ourselves also guilty of ugliness. The oppressed are no better than the oppressor. While seeking to free themselves they use the same means as the oppressor. If and when they do get power they are corrupted and become the oppressor. See the Protestant Reformation or the United States of America.

Geneforge shows this hypocrisy using non-human characters, much like the book Animal Farm. The pigs and dogs are the drakons. I'm not so great with all the details in the game, but I see the forest that the trees are preventing you from seeing.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #121
The problem is, that while humans have two sides, not to mention a neutral ground, Drakons can only be the bad side. And the shopkeeper Drakon in G3 doesn't count. He was merely overcome by his greed.

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #122
May I comment on the quote regarding the Drakon's 'lack of feeling' about Greta's death?

Merely because a couple of Drakons in that particular instance showed no feeling, does not mean that they are incapable of empathy!

What everyone here needs to realize is that humans are not popular with the Drakons. The humans created the Drakons. The humans enslaved the Drakons. Humans are hunting down the Drakons to genocide them. The human half of the Rebellion tends to care less about Creation rights that the other half of the Rebellion. And the human half of the Rebellion has shown itself to be inept when dealing with the Shapers.

So you can't make a judgement about whether the entire Drakon race can feel empathy, just because they lacked feeling for the death of a human rebel, who got wiped out by prototype Unbound. No doubt they were thinking that she was just another pathetic example of a vainglorious, inept and oppressive species.

However, I think there are definitely hints of empathy amongst the Drakons. For example, you can convince the Warmaster to turn off the electric fields at the Cairn Gates, but only if you mention that you have serviles with you. That shows that Drakons are far more likely to feel empathy for serviles than humans. Ghaldring mentions that one of the functions of the Unbound is to protect the creations and humans in the mountains.

The Drakons aren't exactly the milk of sapient kindness, but they are no less cold than Shapers.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #123
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

The Shaper empire is based off of lack of compassion.
Yes, and so they can't be blamed for their cruelty. The Rebellion, on the other hand, claims to fight for freedom and equality. They have a lot more to live up to than the Shapers do, and they are failing miserably.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 8165
Profile #124
Thank you for defending me and my fellow Drakonsss...if there are any other ones here.
Are you thinking os Orois Blaze that trains you with canisters in Darenton Freehold that cares nothing for the rebellion or shaper cause,but just wants wealth and junk?

We will eventually become the stronger Unbound...i have to agree with that.
Maybe the Drakons will rebel against the Ur-Drakons?

We Drakons are capable of loving I think,thought...There was an Ur Drakon that liked Reevas back in the Grayghost gates...or khima uss...one of them,just play the game and see...
And damn...yes,we are greedy,we're powerful and arrogant,what are you going to do about it,and who cares?

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R.R
Posts: 179 | Registered: Friday, February 23 2007 08:00

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