Are Drakons superior beings?

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AuthorTopic: Are Drakons superior beings?
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Drakons in general are killing machines. Their goals reflect this. The geneforge in 2 and 3 where design for them and them alone. In geneforge 3 the gazer at the microscopes said that the Drakons want most of the changes going towards upgrading the drakons. Not into developing canisters or new creations. What ever it creativity and intelligence they have it’s at making themselves more able at killing. True due to nature of reproduction you come across a few that aren't but the threat of genocide prevent most from following that.

The serviles where design to be obedient and the only ones that aren't descendents of Sucia Island. The reason they aren't obedient was that those that varied from the norm had no reason or force to purge them. So genetic variants that where more independent survived because they where in a situation where they need to be independent over those who where more prone to be dependent on the shapers where at disadvantage and their power waned. Till eventually you got the serviles we have now. Keep in mind it took hundreds of years of breeding on their own to change that.
Humans are survivors when it takes little effort to survive our motives greatly vary. The human part of the rebellion the individuals had many reason for joining but after joining they fought for survival. The shapers fought the rebellion for survival.
Is it possible for drakons to change their nature, give centuries it may be possible. Drakons are better fighters but humans are better survivors and this is what makes humans superior

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Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
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quote:

1. No, the Rebellion ceases to function when its leader is challenged.

1. Hyperbole. The Rebellion continues to function, despite the power struggles. 'Operation Unbound' was proceeding, despite the rivalry between Salassdar and Ghalrding.

2. Merely because a political system falls in shambles once there is a power struggle in no way demonstrates that it is 'non-complex'. In fact, I'd argue that such a trait shows considerable complexity.

quote:

Only when the challenger was dead could bussiness proceed. They can't seem to operate smoothly without a single driving force to guide them.

Even if this were true, I fail to see how this supports your claim that the Drakons political system lacked 'complexity'. Great Britain's history has shown us time and time again that the country can't operate smoothly without a monarch at its head.
Yet despite this, Great Britian had a highly complex political system, with a House of Commons and Lords.

quote:

2. Stop asking stupid questions. Of course non-dictatorships are more complex than a dictatorship, that's what makes them so much less efficient.

Well, no, it's NOT a stupid question. You have yet to justify your assertion that dictatorships are always less complex than non-dictatorships (such as anarchy and libertarian communism).

Your argument pretty much consists of "Dictatorships are less complex than non-dictatorships BECAUSE I SAY SO! What, you're questioning me? Are you stupid?"

quote:

. Ghaldring came to power by being the biggest, strongest drakon.

No. Wrong again. Ghaldring came to power because he won the popular support of the Drakons, and because of his political manueverings. Salassdar was part of a new generation of Drakon... younger, stronger, and more arrogant.

quote:
You think Salisaar is stronger than Ghaldring? Wrong again. "You come face to face with Ghaldring. Now, at last, you can see that his disinterest and confusion was just an act. He radiates awesome power. It's almost painful to be near him."

When you post such absurdities, I almost lose my patience. However, then I remember that your generation can't read.

Nothing in your quote demonstrates that Salassdar was more or less powerful than Ghaldring. The assertion that Ghaldring was very powerful does not equate to him being more powerful than Salassdar. Try again.

quote:

Cromwell came to power by using the parliament. Again, no comparison. Worst analogy ever.

As usual, you miss the point, and are obfuscating the issue. It doesn't matter how Cromwell came to power (although it certainly involved bloodshed). All that matters is that he was the 'alpha-male' of the pack, and pretty much ruled Britain with an iron hand.

Hell, Hitler was voted High Chancellor by Parliament... will you try to claim that he wasn't a dictator?

In fact, your observations continue to vindicate my arguments. Examples such as Cromwell and Hitler show that dictatorships can indeed have avery complex political structure. Quite often, dictatorships are implemented and sustained via complex manipulations in the political body (ie. Parliament), or 'behind the scenes' manipulation (the Medici Family of Florence).

quote:

You can't keep saying you make supported claims and then turn around and post this crap.

Hint: Merely calling someone's argument 'crap' doesn't amount to an effective rebuttal. Try again, kid.

quote:

To bad we were arguing about creativity here. Are you saying that three different kinds of drakons is more creative than three all new strains of creation?

Once again, you're obfuscating this issue. You're denying that the Drakon's possess creativity. I responded by pointing out that they have made new creations, even if they are alterations of pre-existing creations. Whether they are more creative than humans is really subjective opinion.

quote:

Would you be kind enough to remind me of these 'numerous examples? [of Drakonian empathy]'

Nope. Go back over my previous post and try reading them again. Once again, I'll be patient, because I know that your generation has some trouble comprehending sentences more than 5 words long.

quote:

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The Unbound aren't sapient.
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It matters not. You said that drakons do not kill things for the crime of existing. You were wrong.

For goodness sake, I've clarified what I meant in previous posts, and on previous threads. And that is, Drakons don't aim to genocide sapient beings. Why are you still picking at this? I wasn't 'wrong', I merely needed to elaborate, and I have done so numerous times.

Hint: If your opponent tells you that he was never arguing that point, you don't attempt to refute it. It just makes you look like an idiot.

quote:
I'm no expert, but I'm fairly certain that the point of chicken farming is to make sure the species thrives. I take back my earlier statement, this is the worst analogy ever. I can't believe I dignified it with a response.

For once I agree with you. It's wasn't the best analogy to demonstrate the concept of 'genocide' and sentient species. Either way, except for a small proportion of society, we don't condemn chicken farming as the 'mass murder' of chickens, precisely because they aren't sapient.

Perhaps a more appropriate example is the Dodo on Mauritius. The Dodo was driven to extinction by the Dutch, but I hardly hear anyone label their destruction as 'genocide'. Which just demonstrates that the term 'genocide' doesn't apply to non-sapient species.

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Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
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A hyperbole is an exageration. :P

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I know. It's hyperbole to claim that the Rebellion stopped functioning when there was rivalry between Ghaldring and Salassdar.

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...b10010b...
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quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

The whole notion of what dictator means in latin and in english should not be an issue, it is a language argument.
If you think you can conduct an argument without using language, you're welcome to try.

quote:
And another thing is that the new creations the Shapers made weren't based off earlier creations like the ones in G2's dumping ground for crazy powerful creations.
Actually, the creation specs you see on loading screens mention that the wingbolt is based on the artila.

[ Thursday, March 22, 2007 15:37: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

Merely because a political system falls in shambles once there is a power struggle in no way demonstrates that it is 'non-complex'. In fact, I'd argue that such a trait shows considerable complexity.
I'd like to hear that arguement.
quote:
Great Britain's history has shown us time and time again that the country can't operate smoothly without a monarch at its head. Yet despite this, Great Britian had a highly complex political system, with a House of Commons and Lords.
Is it bad analogy week or something? Does Ghaldring have some kind of parliament that I don't know about? And what exactly do you think the monarch of Great Britain does, anyway? I'll tell you: nothing! Figurehead. Has been for centuries.

Dictatorships: I'm not going to waste time explaining to you how governments work. If you really don't understand, look it up. It doesn't matter anyway, we are talking about which species if superior. Are you saying that the ability to have a dictatorship is superior to the ability to form the governments that humanity has come up with?
quote:
No. Wrong again. Ghaldring came to power because he won the popular support of the Drakons, and because of his political manueverings.
When has the game ever said anything about any of this? Stop making things up, please.
quote:
The assertion that Ghaldring was very powerful does not equate to him being more powerful than Salassdar.
Greta: "The youngest do not always recognize how powerful Ghaldring is."

Neither does Waylander, apparently. What exactly makes you think Salissar is stronger? I'm very curious as to why you would think that.

quote:
Examples such as Cromwell and Hitler show that dictatorships can indeed have avery complex political structure.
Sure, too bad Ghaldring's dictatorship is nothing like any of theirs. Stop comparing apples and oranges.
quote:
Merely calling someone's argument 'crap' doesn't amount to an effective rebuttal.
I was actually calling it unsupported. Way to conviniently ignore that part, or did you not understand? Should I spell things out for you?
quote:
You're denying that the Drakon's possess creativity. I responded by pointing out that they have made new creations, even if they are alterations of pre-existing creations. Whether they are more creative than humans is really subjective opinion.
So your subjective opinion is that bigger drakons and gazers are just as creative as all new war tralls, wingbolts, and kyshaks? Is that what you really believe? Do you seriously think that is what anyone believes?
quote:
Me: Would you be kind enough to remind me of these 'numerous examples? [of Drakonian empathy]'
You: Nope.
I didn't think so. I actually have reviewed the examples in this thread, and all of them have been times when it was in the drakons' best interest to help those othe creations. Not once was it an inconvenience to them, either. Those examples are poor support for drakons being empathic.
quote:
Which just demonstrates that the term 'genocide' doesn't apply to non-sapient species.
So, since drakons practice driving species to extinction (the unbound) that makes them better than the Shapers who practice genocide. I suppose this could be correct, though it's not exactly the strongest arguement for drakon superiority, is it?
quote:
If you think you can conduct an argument without using language, you're welcome to try.
Well, you could just fight the person to the death. That's how drakons resolve arguments, anyway.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
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*sigh* This has just become ridiculous, and a waste of my time. I've decided not to dignify any of Emp's or Retlew's future comments with a response.

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I don't think i can say anything else. :eek:

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R.R
Posts: 179 | Registered: Friday, February 23 2007 08:00
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*Grits teeth* Then why. . . the hell. . . did you post. . . here?

And, victory! Waylander has given up. We're done here.

[ Thursday, March 22, 2007 16:40: Message edited by: Nalyd The Dead ]

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Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
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HAHAHAHA, Waylander you never responded to any of my evidence or even Nalyd the Dead's. You speak of me sticking fingers in my ears and yet you somehow manage to stick fingers in your ears and cover your eyes at the same time. Too bad you can't do it to your mouth also. Waylander, you and ET are the same person if you really look at it, but if you really think about it, I think that you hate ET because you see yourself in him. I think you are probably worse than him in way of single mindedness.

Oh sorry, I forget that [b] your generation [/b] has trouble reading on these newfangled machines. Maybe that is why you fail to respond to so much evidence and site only a few lacking judgements of ET's.

[ Thursday, March 22, 2007 16:45: Message edited by: Retlaw May ]

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

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Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
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Now that I've added Emp and Retlew to my ignore list, I'm quite free to continue discussion with the more rational posters on this forum.

The initial topic, before this thread was derailed, was whether Drakons are superior to humans/other sapient creations.

Questions? Comments?

[ Thursday, March 22, 2007 20:21: Message edited by: Waylander ]

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The question would be easier to detirmine if you told us which qualties would detirmine superiorty.

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Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
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That's up to you to decide. I'm asking you the question, after all!

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I enjoyed this thread. When you started it you said simple question with a complex answer. Well predicted. This has actually given me a much deeper appreciation of the depth in this game. I also view the drakons differently now.

In hindsight I think we could have gone about things differently. "Superior" is subjective, but it can be qualified if you get to specifics. You could for example break down all the categories in which one species would be superior to another: physical stregnth, shaping, intellect, magical ability, artistic ability, adaptability, variety in personality, empathy, honor, and whatever else we could think of. The key would be dealing with these seperately and assigning points to them. The problem would be that some things would not be as important as others and some would overlap, so you'd have to agree on how much each would be worth. Probably not as fun, but more conclusive.

BTW, simply wearing your opponent down by making him repeat himself, restating unsupported claims, and not yeilding to reason when you're clearly wrong so that he doesn't want to talk anymore doesn't constitute you the winner. My uncle uses these tactics all the time. That's probably why I tired before Waylander.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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drakons are very good fighters and their very intellegent to those ends but not much else.The only incident I know of a drakon useing something other the brute force is when Ghaldring tricks that upstart into fighting you. Humans on the other hand while not as good at fighting are decent at it. As they are a good at a lot of other things. Humans are adapters they are what the need to be when they need to be. Drakons are fighters when the need fight, make peace, farm, sail, trade, engage ind diplomacy, and craft items. Every thing that you pc observes them do observes their single minded focus on this.

edit: simply put I base supreiorty on adabtily and from what I have obsevered from drakons in the game humans appear to be far more adaptable

[ Thursday, March 22, 2007 20:43: Message edited by: Lord Safey ]

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Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
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Stillness:
quote:

BTW, simply wearing your opponent down by making him repeat himself, restating unsupported claims, and not yeilding to reason when you're clearly wrong so that he doesn't want to talk anymore doesn't constitute you the winner.

So Emp is maintaining that he, uhhh, won?

Fascinating. I guess if he defines winning as 'refusing to concede a point, while bludgeoning your opponent with the same refuted arguments and irrelevancies ad nauseum until he tires', then I guess you could say he won.

What finally made me realize that any discussion with Emp about the issue is pointless is the simple fact that he makes his opinion about the Drakons an axiom.

He essentially re-interprets (or, if it can not be re-interpreted... ignores) every fact so that his axiom is not threatened. We have observed two excellent examples of this:

1. When he stubbornly refused to admit that the Drakons designed Northforge to accomodate for art.

His attempt to weasel out of that one amounted to this: "What? There is room for art in Northforge? It MUST have been the serviles, because I'm pretty sure that Drakons can't appreciate art. Despite the fact that its clear that the Drakons designed Northforge. Hence Drakons don't appreciate art."

Circular logic, anyone?

2. When he re-interpets any apparently 'compassioniate' act as having a selfish ulterior motive.

"Ghaldring says he wants to protect the serviles with the Unbound? Why, he must be lying, because Drakons don't feel empathy! Hence there is no evidence that suggests that Drakons feel empathy!

Again, circular logic anyone?

The final straw is when Emp goes introducing irrelevancies in an order to obfuscate the argument. There are numerous examples of this on the thread.

So essentially, I can't be bothered to waste any more of my precious time in a futile argument, on a muggy hot Friday. Emp is welcome to boast that he 'won' this confrontation, if it makes him feel a little better inside.

I doubt he has much else to be proud of outside this forum, so why not let him have his little 'victory'?

[ Thursday, March 22, 2007 21:08: Message edited by: Waylander ]

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I hope Waylander doesn't think that ignoring me is going to stop me from responding.
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

It MUST have been the serviles, because I'm pretty sure that Drakons can't appreciate art.
No, I said it must have been serviles because I'm pretty sure drakons don't do manual labor. I can't prove that the serviles put those art spaces there for themselves, and you can't prove that the drakons did. That's why I sort of just let this one go. Don't you have anything better?
quote:
Ghaldring says he wants to protect the serviles with the Unbound?
It has already been pointed out twice that this was someone's misquote. It's not that Ghaldring was lying, it's that he simply never said this.

I'll sum up some reasons why humans are superior to drakons, since you all seem to have forgotten them.

-Humans are responsible for every single base creation. Even in the time since drakons have existed, they have come up with five (not including the drakons themselves, which they also created). The drakons contributions to the shaping art consist of minor upgrades of existing creations, the culmination of which is the unbound. This shows drakons have less creativity as well as less skill.

-Humans can create and control drakons. Drakons can not create or control humans. This shows that drakons have weaker minds.

-Humans in the game like to surround themselves with art, and, while I can't prove anything, the lack of any art whatsoever in drakon structures has been noted.

-Drakons constantly shape themselves to be better and better. The humans of the Shaper Empire refuse to do so, remaining pure and unchanged, and yet they are still beating the drakons in the war as of the begining of Geneforge 4. This is a testament to human strength and skill. Whether this shows the drakons are weaker or just less competant I can not say for sure.

-Humans can be anything, from farmer to ruler, from merchant to mage. Every single drakon encountered in the game is either a fighter, or in rare cases, a horder. They are single-minded, which makes sense because they are designed to be that way. For those that say 'they must all be that way because they are fighting for survival' remember that it was already noted that the serviles of Khima still found a way to live as respectable beings, despite the fact that their lives were in danger. The drakons never once show interest in anything other than war (or hoarding) and so I feel that I can conclude from that that they are incapable of those thoughts, and thus inferior to humans.

-Claims that the drakons show empathy are unfounded. They treat other creations, humans, and even each other like crap. The fact that they would kill Greta to test the unbound is my favorite example of this, it even uses the words "without emotion." The opposition has yet to give an example of a time when drakons helped someone other than themselves when it was not to their own immediate benefit.

-The human geneforge was suprior to the drakon ones, despite the fact that the drakons had access to 200 more years worth of technology. The former turned its users into empire-forging deities, while the latter simply made ur-drakons, armies of which are still having trouble fighting unmodified shapers.

-Drakon are terrible at politics and government. They have a dictatorship with Ghaldring at the top. When he is challenged, they spend all their time arguing (I can't say that the Rebellion ceased to function but I can say that the high command was all but useless during that time). How do they resolve their arguments? Do they talk it out and come to an agreement like civilized humans, and unite in the name of their common cause? No, one of them has to die for things to go back to normal. They solve problems with violence, it is the only thing they know (well, that and greed).

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FWIW my quick read of this debate is that both sides have made good points, but have gotten too frustrated with each other to acknowledge it. I think the problem is that 'superior' is ill-defined. It's like looking at two trees, one tall and spindly, one round and bushy, and asking which one is bigger.

In some respects drakons obviously are 'superior'. Physically, for instance. In others they are obviously inferior. They have much less history, for example; their entire present society is mostly younger than Ghaldring, and their Taker precursors go back no more than a century or so. Their population is also clearly much smaller than that of humans.

I don't think the games provide enough information to assess this question in any kind of generality. A new, small culture of humans, formed and continuing in a war of extermination, would have many of the limitations we see in the drakons' culture. I suspect that, because in this war the drakons' main weapon has been the reshaping of their race for military supremacy, drakons may well be more narrowly and rigidly specialized than humans. They may excel in violence, and be doomed to lag in other areas. If this turns out to be true, it will be a situation poorly summarized by calling either side 'superior'; and at present the games do not prove or disprove this specialization theory, anyway.

And the reshaping issue may render the whole discussion moot in another way. If 'superior' is ill defined, so also are 'drakon', and 'human'. The human and drakon sprites stay fixed because of game engine limitations, but continuous self-shaping is effectively redefining humanity and drakonity alike.

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quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

They may excel in violence, and be doomed to lag in other areas.
SoT, I agree with a lot of what you said, but was curious as to whether you feel that drakons are any more violent than humans? I saw this argument from a few folks, but didn't see it myself. Not debating, just wondering.

I hope we get to see more of drakon society in the next game. Maybe it would conclusively answer this question of superiority for some. In my opionion the authors intent is clear already.
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I also wonder exactly how Drakons are more warlike than humans? The only reason the Shapers weren't at war prior to the Rebellion was due to the fact that they had already crushed all opposition.

Unless you count the Sholai, who are waaayyy across the sea. ;)

[ Friday, March 23, 2007 04:38: Message edited by: Waylander ]

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We say drakons are more warlike because it is all they ever do. Serviles fight for their survival as much as drakons do, yet they tire of it and often attempt to live on their own, away from conflict, something a drakon has never done. Drakons are also more aggressive, as can be seen by the fact that you can goad most of the drakons you meet in the game into a fight with relative ease.
quote:
the Shapers weren't at war prior to the Rebellion was due to the fact that they had already crushed all opposition.
Does it ever say this in the game, or is this more fabricated crap?

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Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Shaper
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It does say, in game, that the Shapers rule both continents completely, and kill anybody who stands up to them.

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I know they rule everything, but where does it say they kill anybody who stands up to them?

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Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
No, I said it must have been serviles because I'm pretty sure drakons don't do manual labor. I can't prove that the serviles put those art spaces there for themselves, and you can't prove that the drakons did. That's why I sort of just let this one go. Don't you have anything better?
Okay, where does in the game does it say that the serviles did all the manual work for the drakons, and where does it say that serviles have such an appreciation for art that they would design for it even with drakons breathing over their shoulders? (The Takers in G1 smashed Shaper art, after all. Though it was mostly motivated by their hatred of all things by Shapers, it shows they don't have much appreciation for art. They weren't razing old Shaper buildings and replacing them with their own or destroying Shaper records.) If you can't provide those sorts of quotes, then you're assuming too much.

quote:
I know they rule everything, but where does it say they kill anybody who stands up to them?
The G1 intro gives something about anyone attempting to learn Shaper arts without Shaper permission is killed either by a Guardian in the day or an Agent at night, and repeatedly states later on that all outsiders in Barred lands must be killed. It's pretty clear anyone who step too far out of line is dead.

Dikiyoba.
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