Are Drakons superior beings?

Pages

AuthorTopic: Are Drakons superior beings?
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #25
Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Edit: Oh, and yes, there was a mention of Shaper art in Geneforge I.
Drakons have art too.

"At last, you step into the entry hall of Quessa-Uss. It is a huge stone chamber, with massive stone blocks rising to either side and arcing to meet in the shadows above your head."
"It all looks recently constructed, hastily built by drakons, serviles, and magic. There are empty depressions in the walls, waiting for mosaics or other artwork. The touches of luxury are waiting until after the war ends.";

Dikiyoba.

Edit: Added quote for new page.

[ Thursday, March 15, 2007 18:42: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #26
Superior beings make time for art even in times of war. Barzahl did.

[ Thursday, March 15, 2007 18:59: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

--------------------
You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 549
Profile #27
The Drakon have never been shown to sacrifice intellect for power, just sanity. The Drakons, and the rebels in general, do have the advantage of being able to share knowledge much faster with canisters and shaping. It takes years of extensive training for a Shaper to learn something while it would only take a few minutes for a Drakon to learn the same thing by using a canister. Presumably, the Drakons use this to their full advantage and shape each new generation with some innate knowledge. Of course the disadvantage of such a method is that they have no experience.
Posts: 227 | Registered: Thursday, January 24 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #28
Anyone can use canisters, the fact that the Shapers are doing so well in the war without using them is a testament to human superiority.

Oh, and I just realized Waylander said drakons have an innate shaping ability. This is not true. They have the ability to be able to learn to shape (something other creations don't have) but that doesn't mean they can all shape, they have to either learn or use canisters like everyone else, well, except spawners, are they superior beings?

--------------------
You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #29
Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Superior beings make time for art even in times of war. Barzahl did.
Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

Anyway, Barzahl wasn't at war yet. The Barzites worked with the other sects peacefully for awhile and then become deadlocked into a stalemate with them. They were spying and occasionally clashing, but they weren't involved in an all-out war.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #30
Emp:
quote:

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

I'm not the one making empty assumptions. "I didn't see Eass holding a paintbrush in the game, hence Drakons can't paint". Wow, watertight rationale!

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #31
EDIT: Disregard.

[ Thursday, March 15, 2007 23:49: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

--------------------
The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #32
I just don't understand how anyone can deny Drakon superiority. The Drakons are the only ones in the game who have a clue about tearing the Shapers a new *******. If there were two continents of Drakons, I'm sure they would eat the Shapers for breakfast, and have room for dessert.

No wonder the Drakons are so arrogant, with a superiority complex. The fact of the matter is: They are superior.

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #33
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

No wonder the Drakons are so arrogant, with a superiority complex. The fact of the matter is: They are superior.
No, only humans are created in God's image. It says so Geneforge chapter 1 i think around verse 26 ... or wait, maybe that's Genesis.

Seriously though, from an evolutionary and scientific standpoint I don't think there is any concept of superiority or inferiority. That's more the realm of spirituality. From an evolutionary perspective there is only the idea of being more adapted to one's environment. There are animals that can see better, run faster, lift more weight, process information quicker, etc. than humans. In fact, humans realy on animals, plants, bacteria to survive. The vast majority of life can do without humans (in fact we're the main cause of death and extinction for a bunch of them).

Edit: spelling

[ Friday, March 16, 2007 06:06: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #34
Waylander, your rationale is "I didn't see any drakon art in-game, so they must have it." Note that the game quote from Dikiyoba says that the depressions were waiting for art. Drakons are not capable of any emotion other than pure animal instinct.

--------------------
May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 3357
Profile Homepage #35
'Superiority' is surely a case of what you define it to be. If it's in terms of achievements as a species/group, then the humans or Shapers are superior. Even during GF2-4 (giving them a similar time period to work over) humans/Shapers have made the biggest advances in Shaping. The Drakons are simply refining an exisiting model with the Unbound etc.

Even Shapers who learn their magic and other abilities can reach a level similar to a Drakon, and the Drakon is relying on the fact that it was made for the purpose of fighting/magicking/shaping. This implies greater discipline in Shapers (and perhaps a greater intelligence shown in a greater ability to learn).
Posts: 76 | Registered: Saturday, August 16 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #36
Yeah, one would probably need to define "superior." The drakons are superior in size and physical strength. Their arrogance makes them more closed-minded in general. But, the humans of the game aren't exactly the most humble and not all drakons suffer from the same extreme pride that gives some of them a warped view of things. They don't seem to be as agile as humans. I remember something about their writing being clumsy and crude. They are definitely capable of being clever, as in the case of Ghaldring orchestrating the death of what's-his-name. They are certainly capable of the kind of intelligence that allows them to succeed at scientific research. Their advances in understanding the genome was more advanced than shapers as can be seen by the use of the magical microscopes. Of course their focus will be on shaping drakons as they feel they are the pinnacle of creation, but they can shape other creatures.

The other thing to consider is that the majority of the story takes place in the human world from the perspective of a human. The drakons always come into play much later, so you never get as full a picture of drakon society. You just get glimpses. From those glimpses it seems to me that drakonkind is basically presented as equal to humanity.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #37
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

not all drakons suffer from the same extreme pride that gives some of them a warped view of things
Yes they do.

--------------------
You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #38
Take a look at ants and praying mantis. A praying mantis is one tough bug I have seen pictures of it killing small birds. One ant is weaker and possibly stuiped. The problem for the praying mantis is ants are a dime a thousand. They praying mantis may kill hundreds of ants before its dies but it still dies. The thing is humans work better in groups. Drakons mentality makes working with outsiders even though they be allies trouble some. Your PC has to kill a drakon to stop a civil war among the rebellion. The shapers may have difference in opinions among each other and have one or two wackos on the edge of the empire. Its not anywhere near the level of the rebellion. Quite simply the shapers don't need to be strong enough to stop the rebillion the rebellion will destroy it self. Humans are superiour to drakons because we get a long with each other .

--------------------
A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #39
quote:
Originally written by orange[s:
]
Even during GF2-4 (giving them a similar time period to work over) humans/Shapers have made the biggest advances in Shaping. The Drakons are simply refining an exisiting model with the Unbound etc.
The shaper's have the advantage of more experience, resources, and manpower. The rebellion is half human. Where are the great advances from them? It seemed to me that the drakons were actually right to some extent about being the stronger half of the rebellion. The real hope for victory lay with them. Not just that, but the drakon half of the rebellion seemed more civilized and well-put-together than the humans. The humans were just making it up as they went along (e.g. greta making herself general; the servile in chapter two that just assumed her role), while the drakons had a complex political structure and a real plan for victory.

It's very debateable that the shapers have made more advances. An unbound would own a trall, kyshakk, or a wingbolt. The drakons seem to be getting more dangerous every game. Given time I could see a victory for them.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #40
Nayld:
quote:

Waylander, your rationale is "I didn't see any drakon art in-game, so they must have it."

*sigh* Strawman argument. Before attempting to refute your opponent, you should at least figure out what the hell they are saying. And you should try being a little less obtuse.

quote:

Drakons are not capable of any emotion other than pure animal instinct.

Are you sure that you're not Emp's doppleganger? You're just making the same baseless assumptions, without providing a jot of evidence.

But hey. I never saw the humans in Geneforge defecate either. Obviously this proves that they MUST be incapable of passing a bowel movement.

[ Friday, March 16, 2007 13:37: Message edited by: Waylander ]

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #41
Safey:
quote:

Humans are superiour to drakons because we get a long with each other .

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! You've really made my day with that little zinger.

Humans get can along with each other? That explains the rogue Shapers, and the HUMAN half of the Rebellion.

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #42
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

You're just making the same baseless assumptions, without providing a jot of evidence.
Just because you've ignored it doesn't mean that there hasn't been plenty of evidence mentioned already. Read the thread again, I don't feel like repeating myself.

--------------------
You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #43
Emp:
quote:

Just because you've ignored it doesn't mean that there hasn't been plenty of evidence mentioned already. Read the thread again, I don't feel like repeating myself.

Stop being pedantic. It's quite evident that you don't have a jot of evidence to support your drivel about the Drakons. If you HAVE provided such evidence, they by all means, quote it again for all to see! Remember that making assertions such as 'Drakons do not feel emotion!', with excessive emphasis, does not qualify as evidence!

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #44
Try this one first.
quote:
Anyone can use canisters, the fact that the Shapers are doing so well in the war without using them is a testament to human superiority.
As for my other reasonings, they may be opinions (logically reasonable ones) but at least they aren't factually untrue (like drakon have innate shaping abilites and there not being any mention of shaper art).

--------------------
You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 8323
Profile #45
Waylander, after reading your posts.... I realize you can't admit your ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity. The drakon have animal instinct, and you can't change that by posting stupid, unneeded arguments. And how you were complaining about the Human Rebeliion against the Shapers? Technically, the Shapers are no longer humans, and the Rebellion is all that's left of the real humans. Just because you're wrong doesn't mean you can say others are making assumtions that are really logic.

In other words.... SHUT UP.

--------------------
Captain: That atomic ion cannon should have killed him.... WHAT?!?! HES STILL ALIVE?!?!
Guard: Yes, captain. He's an arrangment of numbers called 'statistics'.
Captain: Oh....
Guard: Captain.... we have new data.
Captain: What is it?
Guard: Emperor Tullegor is always right.
Captain: Isn't that obvious?
Posts: 13 | Registered: Friday, March 16 2007 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 8323
Profile #46
Waylander, after reading your posts.... I realize you can't admit your ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity. The drakon have animal instinct, and you can't change that by posting stupid, unneeded arguments. And how you were complaining about the Human Rebeliion against the Shapers? Technically, the Shapers are no longer humans, and the Rebellion is all that's left of the real humans. Just because you're wrong doesn't mean you can say others are making assumtions that are really logic.

In other words.... SHUT UP.

--------------------
Captain: That atomic ion cannon should have killed him.... WHAT?!?! HES STILL ALIVE?!?!
Guard: Yes, captain. He's an arrangment of numbers called 'statistics'.
Captain: Oh....
Guard: Captain.... we have new data.
Captain: What is it?
Guard: Emperor Tullegor is always right.
Captain: Isn't that obvious?
Posts: 13 | Registered: Friday, March 16 2007 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7331
Profile Homepage #47
Whoa, easy there.

There is absolutely not need to call names here. And I believe that the little paragraph that pops up on the screen when you register said at the bottom to "play nice?"

And please do not double post, just to bold a phrase. If you need to edit, then edit.

--------------------
You Shall Die Laughing: http://www.worfthecat.ermarian.net/converted

The Roost: www.roost01.proboards104.com. Birds of a feather flock together.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #48
Emp:
quote:

Try this one first.

What the hell does a propensity for canister usage have to do with an organism's ability to experience a love for the arts (ergo. culture)?

Once again, Emperor, please provide a shred of evidence which demonstrates that Drakon's do not have an appreciation for art.

quote:

As for my other reasonings, they may be opinions (logically reasonable ones)

How gracious of you to admit that your statements about the Drakons are mere opinion. Although I think you're being a little generous to yourself by labelled them as 'reasonable'. Your argument pretty much amounts to "It wasn't mentioned in the game, hence it doesn't occur/exist." Once again, it wasn't mentioned in the game as to whether humans defecated, but I think it's reasonable to say that they had bowel movements.

Likewise, it's been made clear that Drakons are sapient beings capable of introspection. It's not a huge stretch to conclude that given their remarkable similiarites to humans, they can experience an appreciation for art.

Of course, given that they are active in a fight to topple an Empire far more powerful than their own, it's not a huge shock that we don't see Eass or Ghaldring taking some time to paint of portrait of a female Drakon they secretly admire from afar. Perhaps when the Drakons aren't being actively hunted down and exterminated, they can settle and enjoy the finer things in life.

quote:

like drakon have innate shaping abilites

The game suggests that Drakons do indeed have innate Shaping abilities. Canister usage is not required, so it seems quite reasonable to assume that Drakons are created with the ability to Shape.

DreadKnight:
quote:

The drakon have animal instinct,

So do humans. However, it's been demonstrated time and time again that Drakons are sentient, sapient, highly intelligent beings. They have an awareness of self (introspection), and creative genius. I think it's crystal clear that Drakons aren't 'mere animals', despite their appearance.

quote:

Technically, the Shapers are no longer humans,

More garbage from an Emp doppleganger. Last time I checked, the Shapers were a member of homo sapiens. Shapers are just humans who happen to be part of an elitist sect of society. To claim that Shapers are not human would be the equivalent of claiming that the aristocracy of medieval Europe was not human.

[ Friday, March 16, 2007 15:27: Message edited by: Waylander ]

--------------------
VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #49
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

but at least they aren't factually untrue (like drakon have innate shaping abilites
Actually, I think there's a case to be made for this. Isn't there a reference somewhere to Ghaldring being "the first drakon with the ability to Shape"? This must refer to innate Shaping ability rather than Shaping ability as such, since Ghaldring himself was Shaped by Easss.

--------------------
The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00

Pages