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Originally written by Synergy:

Oh come now, if you think there's "no way" then it's just for a lack of imagination. It's not as simple or universal in application. It would be quite a challenge to design well. Let me take a random crack at some of your situations here:

• Fighting ogres: running into a pack of ogres would be likely fatal normally, unless you had access to some kind of dazing/freezing magic. You do have skills that tend to keep you from wandering into packs of enemies though, so you are usually making the choice to do so. For larger packs of formidable foes, you might have to use stealth to lure individuals out or to make assassinations (assuming you had someone skilled enough. The game could tell you your odds of success in some fashion.) I like the idea of the PC talking to the group: "I really think I can do this!" "I don't think I can handle this yet." "I think I might be able to do this." Etc. I like the human element better than looking at some mathematical prediction for an outcome.

If you failed an assassination, you could be 1) killed, 2) injured and require healing/resting, 3) discovered and, if you are quick enough relative to the ogres, you might escape unharmed, 4) you have led angry ogres back to the rest of your party and you probably had better run. Other skills could figure in to your ability to confuse, slow, evade, and hide from such critters.

Or you could just hammer it out if you are playing the typical rpg with a bunch of hit points on each side with predictable and boring results.

• Dealing with magic. Personally, I'd craft a world in which magic is much rarer, harder to learn, only usable more occasionally as it depletes the caster. Magic would be more exciting if it were more dangerous and rare when you encounter or use it, but at a higher price all around.

Evading magic attacks or having enough armor to protect you against things would be figured into how likely you are to survive magic. Acid would destroy your armor...at the least, on the first hit, or some percentage of it. More than 2-3 hits and you have no armor left. That's expensive. You will be motivated to avoid acid like the plague, which you should. Getting hit with acid once your armor is toast is, for all practical purposes, fatal, beyond minor dosage. I don't like acid attack as magic though. I'd make it an expensive and rare lobbed potion or a fired projectile. Acid is not easy to come by in the ancient world.

Some elemental magic as offenses seems more organic to a world where magic might actually exist. You summon fire or ice or water or earth from the environment around you, or perhaps an elemental to fight for you for a time, but only as long as your essence can support it. Magic fatigue would mean that after it drains out, your elemental crumples. Using magic should be very draining though. Very powerful, but shorter-lived.

In order to face fantastical enemies of great ability or strength, you'd better have a strategy on hand to outwit its advantages...either with magic to hamper it, stealth, assassination, poisoning to weaken it, sending some purchased or acquired critters (say trained wolves) in first to soften it up, luring it into a trap where you can use the terrain to your advantage. A thief/rogue PC should be able to set traps to lure foes into. If you have a strong rogue, you could do some real damage, or fatal damage to something with nothing else, potentially. But everything has a cost of some kind, monetary or energetic, and you have limited resources, so choose carefully.

A game would give you clues and cues about how you might take on enemies of certain kinds. Just running in and fighting whatever you find anywhere you go without being versed in what you are facing would mean almost certain doom.

This all seems more realistic, varied, and quite doable, if you are willing to create a game with these kinds of dynamics built in. It would be a slower and more methodical, thinking, and experimenting game. But give me lots and lots of highly varied choices how to go about achieving my ends, often with multiple possible ways to get there.

-S-

P.S. I like the idea of having/recruiting numerous PCs to your party. You'd only take the ones out relevant to your goal or mission at the time though. You couldn't afford to wander around with all ten of them all the time, and some would be too vulnerable to the situation at hand. How much fun would it be to even hire that mage in the city to go on a mission with you, so you can beat a nasty boss and get its awesome treasure or weapon earlier than you normally would. It's gonna cost you though, but it might be worth it.

Stash your rogue at the inn when you are going on a whack-fest. Bring your rogue and elf or whatever is sneaky, fast, and quiet, to scout out your enemies' camp. Send a spy into a potentially unfriendly town. You are limited only by your reputation and means to hire/induct people to your cause.

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Originally written by Nija_Halycron:

I think I saw a game that had this theme once, you could walk around, do stuff, fight post-atomic mutants and even marry a wife and rais a family.

pity it was 16+, it looked quite good.

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Originally written by Stillness:

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I did do that with my Drayk + Wingbolt vs. Gazer example. A Drayk and a Wingbolt cost 8 more essence than a Gazer but they can do much more damage and they have two element types and physical melee attacks so they can deal with resistances better than a Gazer.

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That's not comparing an army of lower tier creations with an army of higher tier ones. That's two v. one. Besides I already agreed with you on this IF you're running a small to medium sized team. Let's say I have one creation slot left and the essence for a gazer. Drayk + Wingbolt won't work. This comes down to a matter of playing style and PC class.

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[b] The issue isn’t which creations are the most powerful; obviously the 4th tier creations are the most powerful.

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Actually it is the issue in my eyes. I'm starting to think that our disagreement is more on style than creation value. The lifecrafter that I had the first time through had 27 INT. That meant he was relatively weak. You may not like a PC that weak which means that you'll have less essence for your army. That's not wrong or right. It's just preference.

I'll say this though: I've played all 4 games and enjoyed them. When I started this one I decided to try something new and basically ignore my PC's magic and combat stats for the sake of essence for monsters. I'm not saying it's the only way to go, cause that'd just be boring. I am saying that there's nothing like a strong team to completely and quickly crush foes. Where I really saw the difference was in the fens and the battle with the shapeshifting golem that has the four guardians around him (can't remember name atm). My servile and infiltrator struggled with these while the lifecrafter slid though with ease. I couldn't understand why you had the option of enlisting rebel soldiers until I played with the servile (I still didn't use them but I was tempted).[/b]

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Originally written by Stillness:

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If you wanted to prove to me that high level creations are worth their essence then you should have made an example comparing an army of lower level creations with an army high level creations that cost the same essence.

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If you want to prove that they're not worth the essence then you should do the same.

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I guess the only real problem is that i don't have the numbers for my experience. For example, I decided that I would use cryoas instead of cryodrayks. But even when I used my cryoas skill points to raise his stats he did not seem as good as a cryodrayk. It seemed that he missed more often, had lower endurance, didn't hit as hard, and got hit harder.

I'm almost midway through the game now on a shock trooper and am still using cryoas. I guess I'll try to do a side-by-side comparison when I get drayk to 3.

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Even Shock Troopers and Lifecrafters rarely have the essence to field more than 4 level 4 creations.

I also never said that Eyebeasts aren't worth their cost. I said that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are not worth their cost.

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The first time I went through the game with a lifecrafter I had 3 drakons, an eyebeast, and 2 cryodrayks. I still had 109 essence left to take care of my team. I rolled over all opposition with much greater ease than my servile or infiltrator. I felt like i was cheating somehow. I guess if what you're saying is true I could've gotten the same bang with 3 fyoras 2 cryoas and the beast. Man, that would save a lot of skill points into INT if it were true!

Like I've said before, a great deal depends on your playing style and class. If youre strong on shaping then you can easily max out your 7 creation slots and have a bunch more essense to spare. That's when i think high levels become valuable. I reckon the real issue in our little discussion is this: Is a trained low level creation as good as a high level one?[/QB]

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Originally written by Stillness:

Vicheron, I was responding to you comment that the high level creations aren't worth the essence. I say basically the same thing you say regarding classes/builds in the latter part of my post. If you're working with a servile an couple of drayks or cryodrayks are cool. Still, I doubt that you can make a drayk better than a drakon. Then there is the matter of effect (e.g. ur-drakon, eyebeast) that can't be duplicated with lower levels.

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Originally written by Stillness:

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I don't think that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are worth their cost. Drakons and Ur-Drakons do more damage and have more health than Drayks but it's just cheaper to create more Drayks or to level and evolve Drayks.

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The only problem with this line of reasoning is that the number of creations you can have is limited to 7. You can't just create more drayks once you reach the limit, so it's not a question of quality v. quantity. My 3 drakons, 2 cryodrayks and eyebeast would own your 7 drayks.

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