The best creations?
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Wednesday, February 28 2007 19:21
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The minimal party at the end is a drakon and a gazer or wingbolt. I know from experience. You can use all that extra essence to buff up your creations. But really quantity is somewhat better than quality since with mass energize you get more attacks per round. Even if they do a little less damage the attacks mount up and you can go after more targets. You might lose a creation, but you can kill more opponents in a single round before they even get to attack. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, February 28 2007 23:12
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Mind you, that assumes you're using canisters. If you're not, an all-Wingbolt army is actually a pretty good choice. They survive pretty well, and do tremendous amounts of damage (except to magic-resistant opponents, which mostly attack with magic as well so you won't be taking much damage either). Their only real weaknesses are Eyebeasts and Unstable Firebolts, which resist magic but attack with fire. Fortunately, you don't meet either of those particularly often. [ Wednesday, February 28, 2007 23:16: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Thursday, March 1 2007 05:35
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Vicheron, I was responding to you comment that the high level creations aren't worth the essence. I say basically the same thing you say regarding classes/builds in the latter part of my post. If you're working with a servile an couple of drayks or cryodrayks are cool. Still, I doubt that you can make a drayk better than a drakon. Then there is the matter of effect (e.g. ur-drakon, eyebeast) that can't be duplicated with lower levels. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6136
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written Thursday, March 1 2007 09:56
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quote:Jeje yes, me cambio al ingles pa que no piensen que los estamos pelando jeje ;-) I sometimes posted in the avernum forums I didn't know there was someone else from Chili here, that's cool. Debes tener un muy buen ingles porque estos juegos se basan en la comprension jeje, no creo que seamos muchos los de chile jeje saludos! greetings![/QB][/quote]En realidad he contado como cuatro, nosotros dos, el nazgul que te digo, pero no es precisamente chileno, y otro wn que el otro dia me agrego al msn, que es de santiago, talvez algun dia veo si lo recluto... :cool: And I have a question, what's the difference between eyebeast and gazer? Ovbiously their traits, but their attack are the same?? Posts: 446 | Registered: Friday, July 22 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, March 1 2007 13:01
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quote:No, they're very different. A Gazer attack is equivalent to Kill: lots of magical damage to one target. An Eyebeast attack is equivalent to Aura of Flames: lots of fire damage to all targets. (Note that Eyebeasts will run out of spell energy for their attacks a lot faster than Gazers will.) -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Thursday, March 1 2007 14:59
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Plus, Eyebeasts are green! Is it a bad sign if the first seven posts on Today's Active Topics list are by you? -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6136
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written Thursday, March 1 2007 16:03
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quote:Who? me? And thanks I remembered gazers casting kill, but I have never got the 3 gazer skill points to create an eyebeast. Posts: 446 | Registered: Friday, July 22 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, March 1 2007 22:52
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Eyebeasts sure are fun. They may not be the most practical creation, but if you can afford the indulgence, there's something maniacally satisfying about redlining a half dozen critters all at once with one or two rounds of dual bursts of Aura of Flames.I enjoyed having an Ur-Drakon, a Drakon, and an Eyebeast at endgame with an Infiltrator. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 549
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written Friday, March 2 2007 17:30
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quote:Your reasoning is flawed. If you wanted to prove to me that high level creations are worth their essence then you should have made an example comparing an army of lower level creations with an army high level creations that cost the same essence. You aren't proving anything by comparing an army that costs 1000 essence with an army that costs 500 essence. Obviously the army that costs way more essence is going to be more powerful. Even an army of the same creations evolved to cost 1000 essence is going to be more powerful than the same army that has only been evolved to cost 500 essence. A much better example would be a Drayk and a Wingbolt, which costs 227 essence, vs. a Gazer, which costs 219 essence. It's not very good idea for a Servile, Infiltrator, or Warrior to trade a Drayk and a Wingbolt for a Gazer. Even Shock Troopers and Lifecrafters rarely have the essence to field more than 4 level 4 creations. I also never said that Eyebeasts aren't worth their cost. I said that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are not worth their cost. Posts: 227 | Registered: Thursday, January 24 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, March 2 2007 18:15
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In my experience, a higher-tier creation will always survive much, much better than a lower-tier creation. A Drakon costs about as much essence as two Drayks, and has as much HP as both of them put together -- the two Drayks will do more total damage per round, but only if you keep them alive (a Wingbolt, for example, can kill an unprotected Drayk in one hit). I generally switched to a higher tier whenever I was consistently having difficulty keeping lower-tier creations from dying. I agree that wingbolts are generally better value than gazers, though. [ Friday, March 02, 2007 18:17: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, March 2 2007 20:10
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You know, I'm a bit underwhelmed by drayks at the moment. Partway through Burwood, mine has slightly less health and costs slightly more essence than my fyora. It resists fire better and has a stronger ranged attack, but the melee attack is the same as my fyora's. It gets terrified easier and, since it goes last in almost any combat, it is often out of position (and gets killed more often for it) and only kills enemies after they get a chance to attack. It's not a bad creation, it's just less impressive than I had hoped. Plus, there's the whole suspension of disbelief factor. You would think the Shapers would comment after seeing Dikiyoba's character walking around with a banned creation in tow and the drayks would be upset with a dumb, obedient drayk named "Squib". Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Saturday, March 3 2007 02:44
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quote:If you want to prove that they're not worth the essence then you should do the same. I guess the only real problem is that i don't have the numbers for my experience. For example, I decided that I would use cryoas instead of cryodrayks. But even when I used my cryoas skill points to raise his stats he did not seem as good as a cryodrayk. It seemed that he missed more often, had lower endurance, didn't hit as hard, and got hit harder. I'm almost midway through the game now on a shock trooper and am still using cryoas. I guess I'll try to do a side-by-side comparison when I get drayk to 3. quote:Agreed. quote:The first time I went through the game with a lifecrafter I had 3 drakons, an eyebeast, and 2 cryodrayks. I still had 109 essence left to take care of my team. I rolled over all opposition with much greater ease than my servile or infiltrator. I felt like i was cheating somehow. I guess if what you're saying is true I could've gotten the same bang with 3 fyoras 2 cryoas and the beast. Man, that would save a lot of skill points into INT if it were true! Like I've said before, a great deal depends on your playing style and class. If youre strong on shaping then you can easily max out your 7 creation slots and have a bunch more essense to spare. That's when i think high levels become valuable. I reckon the real issue in our little discussion is this: Is a trained low level creation as good as a high level one? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, March 3 2007 03:24
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A trained low level creation will never have the same strenght, endurance, and near dexterity for the same essence cost. At least that was what I saw during beta testing. I ran with two artilas that I kept adding strength essence in order to keep them competitive on damage. Eventually I replaced them. High level creations tend to be more resistant to terror and charm. Although that probably depends upon the ones you have. I always liked my gazer over the wingbolt since it has higher health even though it costs more in essence. I guess it comes down to how quickly you can kill the opposition. I still like drakons at the end since the have a higher effective damage versus ur-drakons. Cryodrayks also when they have been around for a chapter are useful even though they run out of spell energy. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, March 3 2007 05:56
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Ugh, terminology people! Things will get very confusing very fast if you use "level" to refer to "tier" when every creation also has an experience level. Some low tier creations can compete with high tier ones, but in order for that to work you basically have to devote all your energy into making them as soon as possible with a high shaping skill. Cryoas vs Cryodrayks is probably the best example, since there are no other ice creations and cryoas CAN be just as good as cryodrayks, with a few plusses and minuses. Cryoas however are uniquely suited to this, since they are available very early but have a high base level. But you can certainly have Artila, Vlish, Roamers, or Drayks that are playable in the endgame, if perhaps not preferable. The one big downside to low tier creations is their lack of mental resistance, which gets very annoying eventually. (ALL tier 4 and 5 creations have very high mental resistance.) There are items which can help compensate, most notably the Stasis Shield, but some of those are hard to acquire. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 549
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written Saturday, March 3 2007 14:11
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quote:[/b] I did do that with my Drayk + Wingbolt vs. Gazer example. A Drayk and a Wingbolt cost 8 more essence than a Gazer but they can do much more damage and they have two element types and physical melee attacks so they can deal with resistances better than a Gazer. quote:If you get a Cryoa as early as possible then they will be about the same level as a Cryodrayk when you get your third canister of create Drayk so they will have about the same stats. The Cryodrayk will have more hit points, hit a bit more often and hit harder but they cost 79 more essence. If you invest 4 more endurance into the Cryoa, it'll have about the same hit points as a Cryodrayk. If you invest 6 more strength into the Cryoa, it'll be more accurate and do as much damage as the Cryodrayk. The Cryoa will still cost 28 essence less than a Cryodrayk. Plus two unevolved Cryoas with the same level as a Cryodrayk will still be better than a Cryodrayk. quote:[/quote] Again, the example you gave is flawed. I never said that all leveled/evolved low level creations are better than high level ones. You obviously didn't have 1000+ essence at the start of the game. Even if you are strong in shaping you cannot max out your 7 slots with the most powerful creations available to you through the entire game. You don’t start at Northforge with 25 intelligence and access to all the creations in the game. There may come a time when you have 7 Wingbolts and plenty of essence left to trade in for a couple of Gazers but by that point in the game, you can already demolish everything with your 7 Wingbolts. The issue isn’t which creations are the most powerful; obviously the 4th tier creations are the most powerful. The issue is which creations are the most cost effective, which means the creations that are useful for the longest time. Even a fully leveled/evolved Fyora is not going do very well against Mose but a leveled/evolved Drayk can still be useful against the Unbound. Posts: 227 | Registered: Thursday, January 24 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6490
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written Sunday, March 4 2007 09:20
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well i prefer wingbolt very good creation -------------------- qwertyuiop Posts: 3 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8229
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written Sunday, March 4 2007 09:39
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We definitely have to petition for more various bolts in the future, yes. I'd like a company. Actually, I currently have 3 wingbolts with somewhat upped ST, and even those they cant, well, bolt - they bite to death fast enough. Some arrogant dragons from Quessa went down in four and six rounds, respectively for doorkeeper and some nonsence politician wannabe inside. [ Sunday, March 04, 2007 09:42: Message edited by: Acidic Helixbolt ] -------------------- "At ease, guys, it's just some nonsence green wingbolt..." - Guardian Kantor, Shaper infiltrator forces, last words. Posts: 36 | Registered: Sunday, March 4 2007 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Sunday, March 4 2007 23:51
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quote:That's not comparing an army of lower tier creations with an army of higher tier ones. That's two v. one. Besides I already agreed with you on this IF you're running a small to medium sized team. Let's say I have one creation slot left and the essence for a gazer. Drayk + Wingbolt won't work. This comes down to a matter of playing style and PC class. quote:Now we're getting somewhere! I'm going to see if this works out for me. Maybe the problem is that I never shape my cryoas fast enough. quote:Actually it is the issue in my eyes. I'm starting to think that our disagreement is more on style than creation value. The lifecrafter that I had the first time through had 27 INT. That meant he was relatively weak. You may not like a PC that weak which means that you'll have less essence for your army. That's not wrong or right. It's just preference. I'll say this though: I've played all 4 games and enjoyed them. When I started this one I decided to try something new and basically ignore my PC's magic and combat stats for the sake of essence for monsters. I'm not saying it's the only way to go, cause that'd just be boring. I am saying that there's nothing like a strong team to completely and quickly crush foes. Where I really saw the difference was in the fens and the battle with the shapeshifting golem that has the four guardians around him (can't remember name atm). My servile and infiltrator struggled with these while the lifecrafter slid though with ease. I couldn't understand why you had the option of enlisting rebel soldiers until I played with the servile (I still didn't use them but I was tempted). quote:So I'm not the only one! As the drakons are belittling me, I'm thinking, "I have a pet that looks just like you." Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 549
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written Tuesday, March 6 2007 11:20
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quote:You're still missing the point. We're not talking about endgame here. We're taking the entirety of the game into consideration. Even if you put all your points into intelligence, you are not going to be able to get 7 of the highest tier creations available as soon as you get them. Like I said before, you don't begin the game at level 40 with 1000+ essence. An army of 4 Drayks and 2 Wingbolts cost 604 essence. Do you have 604 essence when you first get Create Wingbolt and Create Drayk? An army of 4 Drakons and 2 Gazers cost 1170 essence. Do you have 1170 essence when you first get Create Drakon and Create Gazer? quote:This has nothing to do with playstyle. Even if you put all your points into intelligence and crafting. You will never have enough essence fill your 7 slots with the highest tier creations as soon as you get them. Drakons, Ur-Drakons, and Gazers are not worth their essence cost because they are useful for the least amount of time. You're going to have Drayks and Wingbolts around for a lot longer than Drakons and Gazers. You're not even going to get Ur-Drakons until the final quest in the game. Posts: 227 | Registered: Thursday, January 24 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, March 6 2007 21:38
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quote:We both agree that I'm missing your point. You can't ever make a full team of the newest available creation at any point in the game. You build as you level from the beginning of the game until the end IF you want stronger creations. Whether that means evolving, replacing, or both depends on your class and your style. With most creations evolving becomes less cost effective than making a new creation at some point. quote:Huh? They are useful. That's what I'm saying. If you have the essence and want a stronger creation than a drayk, make a drakon. He will hit harder, take more damage, resist effects better, and make you look more menacing. I will admit that Ur-drakons are quite expensive, but they hit very hard and slow your opponent. Again it's a matter of style and preference. I absorbed mine and went with drakons. I honestly don't even know what we're talking about anymore. Your argument includes a time factor that completely eludes me. Should you not buy high level spells since you wont have them as long and they cost more gold? Answer this question for me: I prefer a team of 6 or 7 (including my PC) when running a LC or ST. When I get my first canister of create drakon I have 2 drayks, 2 wingbolts, a rot, a cryoa and about 110 essence to use on my army. Which option will make my team the most potent, (1) absorbing a drayk and making a drakon or (2) training one or both of my drayks? Why do you so answer? It seems we may be discussing different issues. I was originally responding to this: quote:I never really used gazers, so I can comment much on them. I also haven't done a comparison between an evolved drayk and a drakon. I'll do that when I get create drakon with my ST. It does seem that the general consensus is that a drakon is still better. It definitely makes sense intuitively. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8165
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written Tuesday, March 6 2007 22:13
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I'm sorry,but i can't help but laugh when smart people that know everything about a game start arguing,they use big words,and talk about the events and the game and WHOO!it's exciting! -------------------- R.R Posts: 179 | Registered: Friday, February 23 2007 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3828
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written Wednesday, March 7 2007 13:00
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I think this is probably the most balanced geneforge game as far as power of creations and it does encourage you to use different types of creations as the game progresses. War Tralls are very useful if merely for the fact they possess the only non essence draining missile attack (and its purely physical damage which allows you to take on those pesky spikey, oozing, creatures with high resistences, and basically no one has noted this fact), most magical creations are probably more powerful in attack but run out of essence more quickly. As much as I've loved the power of the high tier creations in previous games, they have been quite unbalanced, compare the top tiers of last games to the creations below them and there is a huge difference and considerably less use for them, where as in this one there are still advantages to bringing along slightly lower tier creatures to the end (taking on different resistences, backing up other creations, etc). I still like Ur-drakons even if they don't have the multi-attack anymore. If I was forced to pick favourites, cryodraks (great return, and reasonably easy to get than other things), wingbolts (just devastating damage versus most creatures), Ur-drakons(individually nasty versus those things that the wing bolts can't damage, tougher and lower essence drain), eyebeasts (too much fun, and devastating versus large groups), yeah I like ranged attackers. -------------------- Morbo is pleased but sticky... Posts: 33 | Registered: Sunday, December 28 2003 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, March 8 2007 00:21
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quote:... except that drayks and drakons also have a non-energy-draining missile attack that does (oddly enough) physical damage. (I hear that it was changed to fire in the Windows version, though.) [ Thursday, March 08, 2007 00:22: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, March 8 2007 07:34
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I ran a drakon, gazer, and war trall through the Titan Hall and found that drakons did the best overall damage versus what you find down there. Drakons have twice the effective damage versus ur-drakons. If you have only one or two creations then a drakon is the best way to go. Mac version had physical damage for drayk and drakon missle attacks for some reason. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8006
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written Thursday, March 8 2007 07:44
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Nearer to the end of the game (When I have as much more ess) I tend to use an Ur-Drakon with it's stats Full-Full-Nearly Full-Full (If possible) OR an eyebeat with the same stats; depending on the situation. I use the Eye beast when I'm likely to fight many non-fire/magic defensive creation/people/Geneforge users. And the Ur-Drakon to kill single people (i.e. Greta, Alwan, thoses kind of people) Otherwise I use as many as possible full endurance Charged Kyshaaks/Wingbolts. -------------------- Why light the way? When you can just blow up the entire area with your spells long before your brain realises it's dark. E.T.=Emperor Tullegor E.T.=Extra Terrestial Does anyone think there's a hint here? No Offence. Posts: 29 | Registered: Saturday, February 3 2007 08:00 |