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Originally written by Yama Toman?:

I would actually argue that hack-and-slash is not all filler. Recently I've had occasion (at work, no less) to play a number of RPGs and pseudo-RPGs made over the last 15 years for Nintendo's handheld systems -- the Game Boy, Game Boy Color, and Game Boy Advance.

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Originally written by Synergy:

Xplo — there's a reason I haven't been addressing your commentary.

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Originally written by Yama Toman?:

I do find it interesting that Angband is so popular here. You, me, and Alorael, at any rate, compared to Aran's lonely cries of ADOM.

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Originally written by Yama Toman?:

I do find it interesting that Angband is so popular here. You, me, and Alorael, at any rate, compared to Aran's lonely cries of ADOM.

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Originally written by Synergy:

Oh come now, if you think there's "no way" then it's just for a lack of imagination. It's not as simple or universal in application. It would be quite a challenge to design well. Let me take a random crack at some of your situations here:

• Fighting ogres: running into a pack of ogres would be likely fatal normally, unless you had access to some kind of dazing/freezing magic. You do have skills that tend to keep you from wandering into packs of enemies though, so you are usually making the choice to do so. For larger packs of formidable foes, you might have to use stealth to lure individuals out or to make assassinations (assuming you had someone skilled enough. The game could tell you your odds of success in some fashion.) I like the idea of the PC talking to the group: "I really think I can do this!" "I don't think I can handle this yet." "I think I might be able to do this." Etc. I like the human element better than looking at some mathematical prediction for an outcome.

If you failed an assassination, you could be 1) killed, 2) injured and require healing/resting, 3) discovered and, if you are quick enough relative to the ogres, you might escape unharmed, 4) you have led angry ogres back to the rest of your party and you probably had better run. Other skills could figure in to your ability to confuse, slow, evade, and hide from such critters.

Or you could just hammer it out if you are playing the typical rpg with a bunch of hit points on each side with predictable and boring results.

• Dealing with magic. Personally, I'd craft a world in which magic is much rarer, harder to learn, only usable more occasionally as it depletes the caster. Magic would be more exciting if it were more dangerous and rare when you encounter or use it, but at a higher price all around.

Evading magic attacks or having enough armor to protect you against things would be figured into how likely you are to survive magic. Acid would destroy your armor...at the least, on the first hit, or some percentage of it. More than 2-3 hits and you have no armor left. That's expensive. You will be motivated to avoid acid like the plague, which you should. Getting hit with acid once your armor is toast is, for all practical purposes, fatal, beyond minor dosage. I don't like acid attack as magic though. I'd make it an expensive and rare lobbed potion or a fired projectile. Acid is not easy to come by in the ancient world.

Some elemental magic as offenses seems more organic to a world where magic might actually exist. You summon fire or ice or water or earth from the environment around you, or perhaps an elemental to fight for you for a time, but only as long as your essence can support it. Magic fatigue would mean that after it drains out, your elemental crumples. Using magic should be very draining though. Very powerful, but shorter-lived.

In order to face fantastical enemies of great ability or strength, you'd better have a strategy on hand to outwit its advantages...either with magic to hamper it, stealth, assassination, poisoning to weaken it, sending some purchased or acquired critters (say trained wolves) in first to soften it up, luring it into a trap where you can use the terrain to your advantage. A thief/rogue PC should be able to set traps to lure foes into. If you have a strong rogue, you could do some real damage, or fatal damage to something with nothing else, potentially. But everything has a cost of some kind, monetary or energetic, and you have limited resources, so choose carefully.

A game would give you clues and cues about how you might take on enemies of certain kinds. Just running in and fighting whatever you find anywhere you go without being versed in what you are facing would mean almost certain doom.

This all seems more realistic, varied, and quite doable, if you are willing to create a game with these kinds of dynamics built in. It would be a slower and more methodical, thinking, and experimenting game. But give me lots and lots of highly varied choices how to go about achieving my ends, often with multiple possible ways to get there.

-S-

P.S. I like the idea of having/recruiting numerous PCs to your party. You'd only take the ones out relevant to your goal or mission at the time though. You couldn't afford to wander around with all ten of them all the time, and some would be too vulnerable to the situation at hand. How much fun would it be to even hire that mage in the city to go on a mission with you, so you can beat a nasty boss and get its awesome treasure or weapon earlier than you normally would. It's gonna cost you though, but it might be worth it.

Stash your rogue at the inn when you are going on a whack-fest. Bring your rogue and elf or whatever is sneaky, fast, and quiet, to scout out your enemies' camp. Send a spy into a potentially unfriendly town. You are limited only by your reputation and means to hire/induct people to your cause.

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Alorael, who thinks your two requests are worth separating. Firstly, you want many choices of how to handle challenges. Charge in with drawn swords, sneak and stab, negotiate, lure, or whatever. Secondly, you want characters to be fragile and magic to be rare and difficult to use. The first is laudable but difficult to implement. The second is a game style decision, and it's one that is far from uncontroversial.

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