Are Drakons superior beings?

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AuthorTopic: Are Drakons superior beings?
Raven v. Writing Desk
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Oh my god. I can't believe this topic is still going.

Is it possible that we have a new contender for the auspicious Nephils vs. Sliths role?

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
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Nah, we still need at least six more pages of nonsense before we can begin to compare. On the other hand, the average post length here (minus quotes) might be longer, so perhaps it is.

Oh, and a link for anyone who cares. (Yes, Dikiyoba realizes it's partially broken. There's nothing that can be done about it.)
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

The issue is skill. You can't reason away the simple fact that the drakons have 'far more skill' than monarch. The game says it. Case closed.
It's worth keeping in mind that the game says this before the PC can have access to the Sealed Catacombs, so the PC doesn't yet know the full extent of Monarch's skill at that stage.

Very much worth mentioning - good point! I just looked over the scripts and the PC actually compares the feeling he has encountering the titan to that he felt when near the unbound. Now who's more skilled becomes debateable again. I would point out that the Titan is "completely beyond control" which is probably why Monarch had to lock it away. The Unbound are conrollable to an extent and created with purpose in mind that they fulfill wonderfully. If someone wanted to say that Monarch is equal to or even a little better, I wouldn't argue that at this point. Really it doesn't matter. What matters is that the drakons are highly skilled at shaping which involves innate ability, training, and scientific reasearch.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Morior:

And don't say that just because someone disagrees with you or you don't understand them, their logic is broken. Both sides of this argument are equally (il)logical.

I'd say someone's logic is broken if they are arguing a point in the game while disagreeing with what the game itself says. That person has sacrificed logic for the sake of being "right."
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
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Reguarding drakons evolving in record time: The first drakons were made from intelligent, very independant drayks. They were first given this intelligence by the humans that once inhabited Sucia. As for them stealing knowledge, I wouldn't even give them that much credit. They had it handed to them. The drakons had Zachary and Barzahl to spoonfeed them tons shaper knowledge after they were created in Drypeak. Anything that the drakons have accomplished they have done so because it is what they were designed (by humans) to do. This is the main reason why I personally have such a hard time seeing them as superior to humans, despite the fact that they are indeed stronger in many ways.
quote:
Stillness:
Don't confuse more variety with more skill.
You don't think more variety is a sign of skill? I'd say it is. The fact that drakons make the all powerful unbound is not so much a sign of skill as a sign of power and strength. Monarch shows us that humans are equally capable of this power and strength. The two species may even be equal in this regard, but humans still have the drakons far outmatched as far as ingenuity goes.
quote:
Morior:
I highly doubt it's true that all drakons are either fighters or hoarders.
This wasn't even an assumption, there simple aren't any drakons that don't fit those descriptions.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Guardian
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The Unbound are controllable only by the barest extent because they were still weak when they were first Shaped. Once they gained enough strength to lash out, even the Drakons took casualties trying to placate them. By the time they had reached Shaper lands, it was all the Drakons could do to run away with their paltry remaining forces.

[ Monday, April 02, 2007 08:57: Message edited by: Meta-Undead Spokesmage ]

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Stillness:
Don't confuse more variety with more skill.
You don't think more variety is a sign of skill? I'd say it is. The fact that drakons make the all powerful unbound is not so much a sign of skill as a sign of power and strength. Monarch shows us that humans are equally capable of this power and strength. The two species may even be equal in this regard, but humans still have the drakons far outmatched as far as ingenuity goes.

I think variety is variety and skill is skill. They are different. One is not necessarily indicitive of the other. You can continue to say the creation of the unbound is not a display of skill, but it's not me you're disagreeing with.

"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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Originally by Nalyd:

quote:
The Unbound are controllable only by the barest extent because they were still weak when they were first Shaped. Once they gained enough strength to lash out, even the Drakons took casualties trying to placate them. By the time they had reached Shaper lands, it was all the Drakons could do to run away with their paltry remaining forces.
Where in the world are you getting that from? Here's a section of ending text that proves exactly the opposite:

quote:
With the guidance of Akhari Blaze, the Unbound are able to cross rebel lands with minimal difficulties. The power and madness of the new creations are unable to compete with his total resolve.

At last, the day comes when the Unbound are brought to the Western Morass. The drakons prepare to turn loose their creations. Their final command: Go west. Destroy all you find. Show no mercy. And then the battle begins.
Dikiyoba.

[ Monday, April 02, 2007 09:11: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shaper
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quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.
It has already been stated (and you've already acknowledged) that this quote is meaningless. It is saying that the unbound took more skill to make than the crap creations that were running around in Monarch's marshes. I'm not wrong, you're quote simply doesn't hold the weight you thought it did. The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part. They make bigger drakons, crappy geneforges, and talk about quantity over quality, they're the ones leaving weak mindless rogue batches all over the place while Shapers concentrate on new, tactically superior creation armies.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Meta-Undead Spokesmage:

Once they gained enough strength to lash out, even the Drakons took casualties trying to placate them. By the time they had reached Shaper lands, it was all the Drakons could do to run away with their paltry remaining forces.
Nothing like that is in the rebel ending. I just went through it. Akari Blaze and his drakons bring them to the western morass without incident. They keep them under complete control and then send them off with the instructions to destroy. They do. The PC makes a couple of mentions of how the unbound are beautiful samples of the height of the shaping arts. They work as well as could have been hoped and bring the drakons to equality in power with the shapers. Where are you getting this from?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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quote:
Resources do apply to superiority. I'd say that someone able to make a bomb from household items is superior at bomb-making to someone who has to have a full lab and all sorts of chemicals, even if the first bomb is slightly inferior.

But game says that Drakons put more resources and more skills. That shows clearly that at that moment Drakons are superior in skills so resources doesn`t matter.

quote:
simply dumping more power into existing creations creates a quantity of force, not a quality. Quality force would be force appropriate to a situation, such as, say, wingbolts (flying artillery), or war tralls (brutes with range). A quantity of force would be relying on one uber-creation for all situations. (I'm sure this can be explained better, if someone could help me out.)
Shapers built variety of creations because they couldn`t match unbound. To take on one creation they had to create many, much weaker creations. Drakons built one creation which is superior to everything shapers had ever created. If it was that easy to create unbound then we would see something even stronger among the creations of Shapers. But we don`t, why? Drakons are better at that.

quote:
For example:
Pro-drakon point: We built the gazers!
Anti-human rebuttal: The gazers are just improvements on the vlish, so they don't count.

Well? Which is it?
None.

quote:
This wasn't even an assumption, there simple aren't any drakons that don't fit those descriptions.
You realize that Drakons are in risk of extinction? They have 2 options :
A) Die
B) Die while fighting for right to live and maybe they`ll survive as a race.

And please, don`t say that you would rather die while kneeling and begging for mercy than fighting for right to live.

quote:
I'm not wrong, you're quote simply doesn't hold the weight you thought it did. The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part.
We already saw, you are just refusing to accept that.
Posts: 13 | Registered: Wednesday, January 24 2007 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.
It has already been stated (and you've already acknowledged) that this quote is meaningless. It is saying that the unbound took more skill to make than the crap creations that were running around in Monarch's marshes. I'm not wrong, you're quote simply doesn't hold the weight you thought it did. The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part. They make bigger drakons, crappy geneforges, and talk about quantity over quality, they're the ones leaving weak mindless rogue batches all over the place while Shapers concentrate on new, tactically superior creation armies.

So you're right and I'm wrong? Dang. Let's pack it up and give in fellas. The Emperor has spoken. He opinions are facts, the facts that dispute him don't exist, up is down, and good is bad. He can tell us what we said even if we didn't say it and still be right. Why even try? :(
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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I just checked. If you lose Akhari Blaze, then the Unbound become much harder control in the ending. Same two paragraphs as I quoted earlier:

quote:
Without the guidance of Akhari Blaze, the Unbound crossing the rebel lands have their problems. Some of them go rogue, causing serious casualties and doing a lot of damage. Even Derenton Freehold is partially damaged by a rogue Unbound attack.

At last, the day comes when the Unbound are brought to the Western Morass. The drakons prepare to turn loose their creations. Their final command: Go west. Destroy all you find. Show no mercy. And then the battle begins.
So, yes, the drakons can have trouble controlling the Unbound. But the given text is a far cry from "it was all the Drakons could do to run away with their paltry remaining forces."

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part.
The game says that the Unbound are better than the creations of Shaper Monarch that we've seen so far. Shaper Monarch was able to hold off both the Shapers and the rebels for a long time with those same "crap creations". Therefore, the Unbound show that the drakons are skilled.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shaper
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quote:
vld:
That shows clearly that at that moment Drakons are superior in skills so resources doesn`t matter.
It says they had more resources and skill than Monarch. And it was not even taking into account Monarch's more powerful creations, just the crappy ones you see in the swamp and city. That quote is worthless, do better.
quote:
Drakons built one creation which is superior to everything shapers had ever created. If it was that easy to create unbound then we would see something even stronger among the creations of Shapers. But we don`t, why? Drakons are better at that.
That's not why. The reason why is because Shapers value control over raw strength. When they abandon this need for control, they make even more powerful creations, like the Titan. This is like the tenth time I've pointed this out.
quote:
You realize that Drakons are in risk of extinction? They have 2 options :
A) Die
B) Die while fighting for right to live and maybe they`ll survive as a race.
I thought you said you read the thread? Did you miss the part about the serviles (who are in just as much danger as the drakons) and yet they try to form a peaceful community hidden in the mountains? Forget them? The options you mentioned are not the only options, but they are the only ones the drakons understand. This makes sense though, considering that this is exactly what they were programmed to understand.
quote:
Stillness:
The Emperor has spoken. He opinions are facts, the facts that dispute him don't exist, up is down, and good is bad.
Not a single thing I said in the section you quoted was an opinion. Do you have anything meaningful to contribute or have you given up like Waylander?

[ Monday, April 02, 2007 10:19: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
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quote:
So you're right and I'm wrong? Dang. Let's pack it up and give in fellas. The Emperor has spoken. He opinions are facts, the facts that dispute him don't exist, up is down, and good is bad. He can tell us what we said even if we didn't say it and still be right. Why even try?
Yes, let's all ignore the good points someone makes just because they also make bad ones. Let's just bring out the big ol' illogical label and slap ET with it. Who cares if he's right on some points? He's wrong on others and he doesn't counter everything you say, so let's just ignore him.

The Unbound do not prove Drakon superiority. They are stronger than anything the shapers have created so far, but that only proves that the drakons worry less about control than the Shapers do. Whether or not the Shapers could create something as powerful if they gave up control is pure guesswork.

quote:
quote:
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For example:
Pro-drakon point: We built the gazers!
Anti-human rebuttal: The gazers are just improvements on the vlish, so they don't count.

Well? Which is it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

None.
I agree. The point was to point out how the pro-drakon side is arguing two contradictory positions at once. Not saying that we haven't done that, but you guys can't claim the logical high ground. And before you say "Well, you guys just ignore the facts," at least try to rebutt the argument that your new favorite quote only proves that the Unbound were made with more skill than Monarch's junk creations.

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The sparrows are flying again.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, April 1 2007 07:00
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2 things:

1) There are some of us here that are trying to show that the game presents neither side as superior. Anyone that doesn't see that there are three sides is going to miss a lot.

2) (this is going to sound malicious, but it's not) Emp is a liar. Emp can you tell us what your lie is this time or will you play dumb? Hint: it involves something you claim I said which I did not...
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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1. True, and this is probably the most reasonable side. It still doesn't change most of my arguments (although it may invalidate the example I used to demonstrate illogicalness, I don't know)

2. Are you talking about his claim that you acknowledged his rebuttal of a quote as true? I wondered about that. Still, that's a very petty thing to fix on and is in no way worth ignoring the rest of his arguments.

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The sparrows are flying again.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, April 1 2007 07:00
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The only valid argument of Emp's that I've ignored is his point about control. Humans control drakons, but not the other way around. That's a good argument. It should be noted that the very reason drakons are banned though is that they are extremely difficult to control. The only other person besides the PC that I can remember controlling one is Matala. Correct me if i'm wrong. Matala is extremely powerful and is not a human. The fact that your PC controls drayks, drakons, and eyebeasts seems to be more of a gameplay issue that a storyline one. He can bend the will of humans and creations. No one else is ever as powerful as he is by endgame. He can destroy townsful of shapers, rebels, and drakons.
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quote:
It says they had more resources and skill than Monarch
And monarch isn`t one of the best shapers?

quote:
When they abandon this need for control, they make even more powerful creations, like the Titan. This is like the tenth time I've pointed this out.
Titan is stronger? No? Titan can be controled? No?

quote:
Did you miss the part about the serviles (who are in just as much danger as the drakons) and yet they try to form a peaceful community hidden in the mountains?
Serviles situation is better than Drakons. Serviles are in danger as a sect while Drakons as a race. Big difference.

quote:
The options you mentioned are not the only options, but they are the only ones the drakons understand.
What other options? Hide until they are found and killed?

quote:
This makes sense though, considering that this is exactly what they were programmed to understand.
And serviles were programmed to obey, unfortunately shapers failed at programming.

quote:
The fact that your PC controls drayks, drakons, and eyebeasts seems to be more of a gameplay issue that a storyline one.
It`s gameplay. I mean Drakons would kill you if they saw that your are creating new Drakons and enslaving them.
Posts: 13 | Registered: Wednesday, January 24 2007 08:00
Shaper
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quote:
Originally written by Morior:

2. Are you talking about his claim that you acknowledged his rebuttal of a quote as true?
It wasn't my rebuttal, it was Thuryl's, and Stillness did acknowledge it.
quote:
vld:
And monarch isn`t one of the best shapers?
I sure hope not, he's a crazy guy living in a basement. Seriously though, we have yet to meet the best the Shapers have to offer (the Council), but doesn't it say something about the strength of humans that one crazy man in a basement could even be compared to the best the drakons have to offer?
quote:
Titan is stronger? No? Titan can be controled? No?
What's the matter with you? I said "when they abandon this need for control." And yes, the Titan is tougher than the unbound you fight at Quessa-Uss.
quote:
Serviles situation is better than Drakons. Serviles are in danger as a sect while Drakons as a race. Big difference.
Could you explain this difference? They are both marked for death, that seems like the same situation to me.
quote:
What other options? Hide until they are found and killed?
They could build up their defenses in the meantime, biding their time. It could only have improved their chances of winning an inevitable war, right?
quote:
And serviles were programmed to obey, unfortunately shapers failed at programming.
Really? Then please point out the drakon that does not fit the description I presented.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
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If we are going to talk about evolution then I want to make a statement that drakons did not evolve over 20 years. They started out with the first shaped creation and as the skill of the shapers increased they were created. I phrased this very poorly but I hope I made my point.

Both sides need to learn how to concede otherwise this will never end.

Unbound vs variety: its all about the tactics you are using I think this is a perfect tie. There is no point for drakons to invest in precession strikes their targets are HUGE.

From what I saw in the game shapers and drakons have virtually identical shaping abilities, but shapers might be slightly winning because they are producing the same results with restrictions.

I think the argument that Drakons are superior fighters is not valid….hear me out. Drakons are all reshaped so we must compare their physical and magical properties to fully reshaped shapers and it seems that it’s about even. If u strip a drakon of all the reshaping what would it be?

One argument to make the drakons look inferior is also not valid. The argument was that drakons don’t work or at least don’t work as much as the other creations. It is a war! You will make the best fighters warriors and the worst ones farmers and workers.

We keep using unbound as an ultimate achievement of the drakons so I want every one arguing to answer this question If the shapers wanted to, could they have made the unbound? Please answer this question so that we can stop using them as some sort of an achievement for the drakons. If you think the shapers couldn’t I would like to hear the argument. Otherwise lets please stop using them as some sort of an accomplishment that was beyond the shapers. We can argue that it was a brilliant tactical move by the drakons but that’s another argument.

From all the arguments that I’ve read most end up being perfect ties. There are a few very minor victories and in my eyes shapers are winning but not by much. Hopefully geneforge 5 will shed more light on this question my money is still on the fact that it’s a tie and that Jeff wanted it that way.
Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00
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vld:
quote:

What other options? Hide until they are found and killed?

Perhaps they should hide in the attic, much like Anne Frank...

As to the continuous mentioning of the Titan, may I point out that:

1. Monarch did not demonstrate himself capable of mass-producing the Titan. The Drakons are capable of mass-producing the Unbound.

2. I'd argue that the Unbound are indeed stronger. The prototypes you are forced to fight are slightly less difficult than the Titan, and the unfinished Unbound that Blaze uses to attack you if you side with the Shapers is roughly equal in strength.

3. Monarch was not capable of controlling the Titan, whereas the Drakons were capable of controlling the Unbound.

[ Monday, April 02, 2007 14:20: Message edited by: Suspicious Vlish ]

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
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quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

Monarch did not demonstrate himself capable of mass-producing the Titan. The Drakons are capable of mass-producing the Unbound.
There's also a lot more drakons than there are Shaper Monarchs, genius.
quote:
I'd argue that the Unbound are indeed stronger. The prototypes you are forced to fight are slightly less difficult than the Titan, and the unfinished Unbound that Blaze uses to attack you if you side with the Shapers is roughly equal in strength.
I'll give you that. But again, Monarch was one man in a basement and he managed to create something that rivals the best the drakons can offer. Imagine what a whole group of humans with vast resources at their fingertips could do.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
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quote:
3. Monarch was not capable of controlling the Titan, whereas the Drakons were capable of controlling the Unbound.
Debatable. One drakon (Blaze) is able to control them. The rest are only able to point them in the right direction (And that takes many casualties)

quote:
It wasn't my rebuttal, it was Thuryl's, and Stillness did acknowledge it.
Could you provide a quote?

quote:
There's also a lot more drakons than there are Shaper Monarchs, genius.

Hey! No need to get mean.

quote:
Both sides need to learn how to concede otherwise this will never end.

Seconded.

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The sparrows are flying again.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, April 1 2007 07:00
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As far as I am concern Drakons have proven they are equal to humans in almost aspects but one. There extrem arrogance. The Shapers intially had this arrogance but when they saw themselfs loseing the war at the begining they learned not to be so arrogant. Drakons are still arroganet despite their massive losses. You don't see this arrogance in most rebel humans, serviles, or dryaks. As far as I'm concered arrogance is the most crippling behavior qualtiy they have. From what I observed in game humans learn easier from arrogance then drakons. If they over came that flaw as a race I be willing to consider them equal to humans.

About the unbound the reason I think the shapers don't have their own version is they don't want too. You always come accross the occasinal shaper lab that has some superpowered mad creation sealed in it. The fact that rebellion exist is because they made creations they couldn't control why would they create something superpowerful that they couldn't control?

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
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