I've made a script / story

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AuthorTopic: I've made a script / story
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #75
quote:
Though I don't understand why it should make it unbelievable? What exacrly is the relation between words and grammar in this matter? or do you mean the relation between folk and language?
Well, as you suggest, there are two separate issues here.

1) Is it believable from a LINGUISTIC perspective? That is, is it conceivable that such a language could actually develop naturally?

2) Does it make sense that the Nephilim, as we have seen them, could use this language and could have developed it?

Having a word for "noob" violates the second one. It sounds like you understand why :)

quote:
how about the Slith language? That is just as believable as nephilian, in my opinion.
Honestly, I find Slithzerikaiis a lot easier to swallow than Nephilian. Most importantly, it is in line with what we know about Slith speech (both anatomical phonetics, and language) from the game canon. Nephilian doesn't directly contradict the games, but its phonetics are a real stretch from what we have heard of Nephil speech.

As for the first question, Kelandon was very humble in designing the grammar. He stuck to things he understood very well, and he kept it extremely simple. As a result, there is nothing about it that makes me scratch my head and think "huh. That seems unlikely!" In Nephilian, although many elements of the grammar make sense individually, when you put them all together, it's absurd to think that such a language could really come about. It's just too unlikely. (To give one example that ties together several problems, most Nephilian words are very long, given the piles of suffixes that are tacked onto all nouns and verbs, and we have seen mostly multisyllabic roots so far as well. That means the language would have to be spoken very rapidly in order to communicate at a reasonable pace -- but the Nephils in Ex/Av are characterized as speaking slowly, if anything. Fast speech also contradicts the phonetics.)

Natural languages may seem like they are arbitrarily put together, but they really aren't. They evolve, much the same way animals do, and as such they have the follow the Law of Large Numbers. Weird things are rare, and really weird things just don't happen.

quote:
Beleivable language? About as beleivable as elvish from LotR.
No way. Tolkien spent years -- decades, IIRC -- working on the design of the Elvish languages and making them as consistent and reasonable as he could. I challenge you to tell me what exactly makes them hard to believe. There is no comparison here.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6489
Profile Homepage #76
I can't even count the number of times you've needed a chance to prove yourself. You do have some good posts sometimes, but all the insults, (vegetables or no) have got to stop. It gets rather irritating very quickly.

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Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00
BANNED
Member # 6655
Profile #77
tyranicus, I want to start over. But until this topic closes, it is likely people will keep talking about it.
Once this topic is closed, I will restart my life. Metaphorically of course, including spidweb.

[ Wednesday, March 08, 2006 11:49: Message edited by: Pokemon ]
Posts: 275 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #78
Topics generally do not get closed. They instead get boring and steadily drift away, never to regain prominence until captured in a PPP and sent to live at the Ermarian Theme Park in Germany. The likelyhood of this topic drifitng away is inversely proportional to the number of times each of us creates a well-intentioned but essentially meaningless reply.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #79
Ha! A Finieous fan! Or?

Languages with very polysyllabic words don't necessarily need to be spoken fast; the issue is information per syllable, not syllables per word. I know (from hearing a linguist talk about it) of a natural language in which a single word can express "but because I also went to the really big house."

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #80
SoT: Absolutely. Here, however, information per syllable is extremely low.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
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Profile #81
Oh for the love of...
You guys are worst than "igod".
Posts: 275 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #82
You said you want the topic to close, and it did. This is no longer about scripts, stories, or you. It is now about the plausibility of Nephilian, which just appeared a few posts back.

You don't own the thread, and as long as it isn't breaking rules or threatening to do so it will remain open. Linguistics are as good a discussion as anything else.

—Alorael, whose biggest objection to Nephilian as a mostly disinterested and uninterested outsider is that it is unnecessarily complicated. Only Spiderweb's handful of linguists can follow along, and even they seem confused by much of the language. For a personal project it's fine, but it's manifestly unsuitable for use by a general public largely unfamiliar with anything more complicated than nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
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Okay, sorry Alorael. I shall stop my behaviour now.
Bye bye!
Posts: 275 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #84
EDIT: Good point, Thuryl. Post withdrawn accordingly...

(I'd like to blame anger over less-than-wonderful midterm exams...)

[ Wednesday, March 08, 2006 13:54: Message edited by: Ephesos ]

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #85
If you want to talk about anything other than Nephilian, take it to PMs and cease replying to this topic. Punching someone in the face just after a fight has ended is a good way to start it up again.

[ Wednesday, March 08, 2006 13:12: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #86
The problem with "Nephilian" — this name needs to be changed posthaste — is that its creator doesn't have quite enough background in English to describe things with English examples (do you really want your O to be a schwa?), comparative linguistics to describe things in linguistic terms ("They're just three different kinds of uvular trills, you see, or possibly the vowel itself is a uvular trill"), or dead Middle Eastern languages to back up the fact that languages have ever worked this way ("Well, it may be a genitive case, but it may just be a possessive case, since we're not really clear on the use of the analogous case in Hurrian and Akkadian").

Without being able to describe the language quite properly in any way, one has a tough time inventing a language. There are many things about it that right now make no sense.

[ Wednesday, March 08, 2006 15:07: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #87
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Ha! A Finieous fan!
Yes, and now I'll need to find an even more obscure and nerdish remembrance of things past in order to disguise my presence. Good going you Ess oh Tee.

( :P )

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #88
Originally by Tyranicus:

quote:
However, for the sake of my tenuous sanity, could you please fix the word dynamite? It is spelled with a 'Y'.
It's intentional (but I made the intention stand out more now).

Originally by Nikki xx:

quote:
And Dikiyoba... (how hard is that name to spell? Jeez...) Amazingly funny. Almost on a par with Alex's cartoons. Which is high praise indeed.
You may shorten Dikiyoba's name down to four letters, if you like. But Dikiyoba will be most unhappy if you shorten it down to the first three letters.

Edit: Dikiyoba needs to stop editing this post.

[ Wednesday, March 08, 2006 18:51: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #89
Liked how you did the next part of the script Dikiyoba. How long is it going to be? When the Ur-Noob dies is it over? Sure hope not.

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Constitutional monarchies are the in monarchies.
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #90
Originally by Zeviz:
quote:
Dikiyoba, nice story. I hope it will be continued.
Whee! Act 2, Scene 2 is up. Sadly, Dikiyoba still isn't in the script yet (at least not by name). But Dikiyoba promises that Dikiyoba will be in Act 2, Scene 3. Dikiyoba is afraid this story will be considerably longer than Dikiyoba first intended.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #91
I reserve the right to appear in Act 4.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #92
Just so long as I get put in the script I'd be happy. But then again the script is so good I'd be happy just to read it.

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Constitutional monarchies are the in monarchies.
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
Profile #93
quote:
Originally written by Slartucker:

No way. Tolkien spent years -- decades, IIRC -- working on the design of the Elvish languages and making them as consistent and reasonable as he could. I challenge you to tell me what exactly makes them hard to believe. There is no comparison here.
The fact that he spent decades making up a language to fit with a book is no different than somebody spending a few months making up a language to fit with a game.
What is so hard to beleive with Elvish is that it is seen in his books and only in his books. He made it up.

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??? ??????
???? ?????
Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #94
quote:
What is so hard to beleive with Elvish is that it is seen in his books and only in his books. He made it up.
Well, obviously he made it up. If you look at it that way, there is no point in comparing the believability of made-up languages, or made-up game worlds, because you are saying they are all equally unbelievable.

My entire post was about evaluating the believability of Nephilian from a linguistic standpoint. Whether or not it's made up has nothing to do with that.

quote:
The fact that he spent decades making up a language to fit with a book is no different than somebody spending a few months making up a language to fit with a game.
The difference in timespan is not relevant in and of itself, no, but it does imply a certain preciseness and meticulousness of elaboration that is completely absent from Nephilian.

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Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #95
quote:
Originally written by Ash... by Nathan Thralni:

Originally written by infernal666hate:
quote:
Nephilim have noobs?
Yes

The spidweb chat has taken its toll on me. Can you guess what I read "noob" as? :P

quote:
until captured in a PPP and sent to live at the Ermarian Theme Park in Germany.
In Texas, technically. Admin'ed from Germany. The host was the cheapest I could find that accepted PayPal.

[ Wednesday, March 08, 2006 21:21: Message edited by: When in the course of Nathan Ashby ]

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #96
quote:
Originally written by Infernal666hate:

What is so hard to beleive with Elvish is that it is seen in his books and only in his books.
You know, from a very long time ago until very recently, Hebrew was only found in books.

Elvish could actually be spoken if someone wanted. Heck, if someone were sufficiently odd and dedicated, a parent could teach it to his or her child as the child's first language, in the same way that Modern Hebrew became people's native language. This is not possible with "Nephilian."

EDIT: Aran: Well, they are mammals. :P

[ Wednesday, March 08, 2006 21:21: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #97
Esperanto is a made up language and there are now people who have grown up speaking Esperanto. (Bilingually, obviously, but it's still quite an achievement!) One could do the same with Quenya if one so desired, although I think the vocabulary might be a little bit lacking.

It might one day be possible with Nephilian, but it isn't. Give Thralni a few more years and more formal grounding in linguistics and we'll see.

—Alorael, who is quite sure that there are worse languages. And there's always speaking in binary.

[ Wednesday, March 08, 2006 21:28: Message edited by: Exquisitely Manful ]
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #98
After reading all this posts (funny how a topic just changes...), you will need to explain me what exactly makes "The Nephil tongue" (if this seems better) impossible to learn? Of course, there are things that have to be changed, I will, just not now, or any time before the next vacation, as I simply don't have time. Forexample, the pronunciation page isn't up to date anymore (not in a long run), and the nouns page will have to change too. The Nephil tongue is simply different from the Slith tongue. the main difference is its basic structure: nominative accustaive for the Slith, while ergative absolutive for the Nephil, and of course the use of suffixes. For as far as I can see, I see only two things that may make the Slith language easier, but one enormous reason to make it onlu more tedious to learn (exactly the reason why I stuck (Spelling anybody?) to suffixes:

Good things:

- It is more like indo-European languages, which undoubtfully will make understanding for most people easier, I agree with that completely.

- The fact that every sort of word and gender has its own typical conjugation will also make things easier.

Bad things:

- Every sort of word or gender has its conjugation. This makes it for me only more tedious to want to learn it. I have to same problem with Latin: there are so many small irregularities and stems, that they have five different conjugations for the nouns, plus three more for neuter and female in two other groups (one group has the two combined).

This is exactly why I wanted suffixes. I read about Hurrian and these isolated languages, looked at the words, then the suffixes at the end of rach word, looked them up in a book filled with grammar, and I had translated some words in Hurrian.

These were of course not very complicated words, but nevertheless I did. I was immediatly attracted by the suffixes, as they seemed just dead simple for me. Just have some different words, stick a suffix behind it for gender, and then one for the case, and there is your first noun, instead of having to learn about 50 different forms for each type of stem, 90 for the words "this" and "that."

This was my motive to take on suffixes. But just as Alo said, and I greatly respect him for saying that, it will take time for me and help from outside before I can succesfully complete it. However, I did make these two mistakes:

- Assume that people would maybe like the idea, but then would want to translate it is something completely different.

- Put the webpage up so soon. I should have waited until I was feeling comfortable with what I did. On the other hand, Slarty and kelandon helped me in a very good way with improving the grammar and such.

I'm sure the "nephilian genitive" is something that people will remember here for a long time :)

[ Wednesday, March 08, 2006 22:46: Message edited by: Mc 'mini' Thralni ]

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Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #99
For once I think I agree with the spirit of all the posts. Now that that's out of the way, allow me to nitpick a few misuses of terminology I feel the need to stomp out:

quote:
Every sort of word or gender has its conjugation. This makes it for me only more tedious to want to learn it. I have to same problem with Latin: there are so many small irregularities and stems, that they have five different conjugations for the nouns, plus three more for neuter and female in two other groups (one group has the two combined).
This is not irregularity. Irregular words are words that don't follow a widely applicable pattern. For example, in English (as in many languages) the verb "to be" is irregular. Having multiple conjugations or declensions just means there are different flavors of regularity. Moreover, Latin is an astoundingly regular language. It has few irregularities compared with most languages.

quote:
I was immediatly attracted by the suffixes, as they seemed just dead simple for me. Just have some different words, stick a suffix behind it for gender, and then one for the case, and there is your first noun, instead of having to learn about 50 different forms for each type of stem
The distinction you are drawing between "suffixes" and "conjugation" is messed up -- maybe there is another English-Dutch translation problem here, and you mean something that is not being communicated by the words you are using? In Latin, Slith, and Nephilian ALIKE (and in many ANE languages), conjugations and declensions tell you what suffixes to use. They all have conjugations and they all have suffixes.

Also, on the subject of worse languages, this will amuse somebody. YuOh is a language (the official language of the Church of v ("Little V")) my fellows and I developed to mock certain linguistic principles:

YuOh is characterized by:

1. an orthographic set consisting of (a) the number 7 impaled by a vertical line, and (b) the character ° with infinitely productivizable diacritics
2. categorically null phonetics
3. phonological feature bundles in which v is both each feature and each feature's determiner
4. absolutist, fundamentalist syntactic domination under v
5. categorically null semantics
6. ritual sacrifice of tracheas

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
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