Avernum 4?

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AuthorTopic: Avernum 4?
VCH
Shaper
Member # 247
 written Tuesday, September 20 2005 17:40 Profile Homepage #250
Aren't all the Vahnatai evil. I'm sure they were proven to be so in A3.

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Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Or else o'erleap.
Law Bringer
Member # 335
 written Tuesday, September 20 2005 18:21 Profile Homepage #251
Evil? Not exactly. Opposed to the Empire and to any Avernites who stand in the way? Yes.

Also keep in mind that it was only one clan, and not even all of that clan. Bon-Ihrno surely wasn't absolutely alone in his views.

—Alorael, who doesn't think the vahnatai are so evil by their standards. The Empire committed an unthinkable crime and deserved unthinkable punishment. Not nice, no, but who's to say it's evil? Where's your sense of moral relativism?
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Inferior
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 00:36 Profile #252
quote:
Originally written by Hierophant of the Random Numbers:

The Empire committed an unthinkable crime and deserved unthinkable punishment. Not nice, no, but who's to say it's evil? Where's your sense of moral relativism?
Actually, Garzahd did. Most citizens of the Empire probably disagreed with him.

I don't see how abducting the Crystal Souls is more immoral than capturing, for instance, the members of the Vahnatai council. Anyhow, it's certainly no excuse to exterminate all specimens on the surface world, while those who where guilty of the crime were already dead.

[ Wednesday, September 21, 2005 01:15: Message edited by: Inferior ]
Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00
Drakefyre
Triad Mage
Member # 7
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 01:03 Profile Homepage #253
Half of one clan of Vahnatai wish vengeance on the Empire for stealing Crystal Souls and vengeance on Avernum for interfering with the previous vengeance.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Desert Pl@h
Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 09:58 Profile #254
quote:
Originally written by Inferior:

I don't see how abducting the Crystal Souls is more immoral than capturing, for instance, the members of the Vahnatai council. Anyhow, it's certainly no excuse to exterminate all specimens on the surface world, while those who where guilty of the crime were already dead.
It's more immoral (to the Vahnatai, and even to humans, as Crystal Souls have wisdom that all benefit from) than kidnapping the council members because of what they are to all Vahnatai everywhere. Council members are mortal, Crystal Souls are undying (unless killed?).

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"Oh, North Wind, why frighten others?
In Nature's family all are brothers.
Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss;
You can't frighten Shingebiss.
Bring your frost and ice and snow;
I'm still free to come and go.
You can never frighten me,
One who never fears is FREE!"
-Shingebiss, the mighty duck
Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00
Levi
Warrior
Member # 5699
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 13:27 Profile #255
quote:
Council members are mortal, Crystal Souls are undying (unless killed?).
???? ??? ???? ?
Posts: 54 | Registered: Monday, April 11 2005 07:00
Sturg
Master
Member # 4614
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 16:13 Profile Homepage #256
Apparently they don't expire of old age.

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RIFQ
Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
VCH
Shaper
Member # 247
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 17:45 Profile Homepage #257
The Empire was only trying to learn from the Crystal souls. I doubt they intended to hurt them in any way.

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I stop rubber at 160km/h, five times a week.
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Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Or else o'erleap.
Law Bringer
Member # 335
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 17:49 Profile Homepage #258
Please examine Vyvnas-Bok in E2/A2 and E3/A3, then repeat that statement.

—Alorael, who would say that taking the Crystal Souls is closer to blasphemy than kidnapping. The Crystal Souls aren't just vahnatai who are blue and contain more silicon. They're quasi-divine.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Jumpin Salmon
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 17:55 Profile #259
Also, it was a splinter cell of vahnatai that clued in the Empire as to the value of the revered gemstones. The Empire made the rational choice by taking the perceived advantage. The bad guys are the vahnatai who had an argument with the leadership.

*this message sponsored by Ree-bok*
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Ash Lael
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 18:32 Profile Homepage #260
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

*this message sponsored by Ree-bok*
An Aftershocks reference, or a coincidence?

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Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Desert Pl@h
Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 18:50 Profile #261
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Also, it was a splinter cell of vahnatai that clued in the Empire as to the value of the revered gemstones. The Empire made the rational choice by taking the perceived advantage. The bad guys are the vahnatai who had an argument with the leadership.

*this message sponsored by Ree-bok*
Which reminds me, why are/were some Vahnatai in league with the Empire in E2?

--------------------
"Oh, North Wind, why frighten others?
In Nature's family all are brothers.
Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss;
You can't frighten Shingebiss.
Bring your frost and ice and snow;
I'm still free to come and go.
You can never frighten me,
One who never fears is FREE!"
-Shingebiss, the mighty duck
Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00
Alex
Lifecrafter
Member # 59
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 19:29 Profile #262
quote:
Originally written by Desert Pl@h:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Also, it was a splinter cell of vahnatai that clued in the Empire as to the value of the revered gemstones. The Empire made the rational choice by taking the perceived advantage. The bad guys are the vahnatai who had an argument with the leadership.

*this message sponsored by Ree-bok*
Which reminds me, why are/were some Vahnatai in league with the Empire in E2?
Indeed, the vahnatai brigands who had the fort in the NE tunnels were allied with the Empire, and assisted, at least with information, the kidnapping of the Crystal Souls.

Wasn't there's also a mission to kill a mad Crystal Soul in the Western tunnels? I don't recall its name, though.
Posts: 950 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 19:30 Profile Homepage #263
quote:
Wasn't there's also a mission to kill a mad Crystal Soul in the Western tunnels? I don't recall its name, though.
Delrin-Bok.

[ Wednesday, September 21, 2005 21:36: Message edited by: Deep Sleep Therapy ]

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
VCH
Shaper
Member # 247
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 21:24 Profile Homepage #264
So was the Empire really wrong in borrowing the crystal souls? I can't say they were when some Vahnatai openly help the Empire while others, Crystal Souls even, are not entirely aligned with their own people. Perhaps the Vahnatai orchestrated the whole accused theft of the Souls.

edit: Oh and Ree-Bok hell yea!!

[ Wednesday, September 21, 2005 21:31: Message edited by: VCH ]

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I stop rubber at 160km/h, five times a week.
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Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Arancaytar
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 21:45 Profile Homepage #265
quote:
Originally written by VCH:

So was the Empire really wrong in borrowing the crystal souls? I can't say they were when some Vahnatai openly help the Empire while others, Crystal Souls even, are not entirely aligned with their own people. Perhaps the Vahnatai orchestrated the whole accused theft of the Souls.

edit: Oh and Ree-Bok hell yea!!
When it is clear that you are dealing with not just an intelligent entity, but a significantly powerful one at that, I don't think "borrowing" is quite the right term.

That said, I am wondering how they managed to capture them when apparently a crystal soul is capable of frying the brains of ordinary mortals at several paces. An explanation might have been given in the game, but I don't remember it.

[ Wednesday, September 21, 2005 21:46: Message edited by: Arancaytar ]

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Synergy
Shaper
Member # 6292
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 22:49 Profile #266
You know what totally weirds me out? The way things like this get discussed online as if it were something real and historic to investigate, analyze, and understand. I'll bet Jeff himself hasn't thought half as much about the implications, insinuations, motivations, and inevitable contradictions in his creation of the Vahnatai and their behavior.

Is this a criticism of people who love to dig deep into what is really just a loosely assembled story for a game? Not especially, but it really is surreal to me to witness the depth of discussion and exploration something completely contrived like a game world can generate. I'll bet even Jeff couldn't answer half the questions, because the story is just a means to an end, playing on age-old themes of one sort or another. If you look too closely at anyone's imagined world, you will see the cracks, because no one can imagine something perfectly in harmony with reality--and you know what they say is stranger than fiction. There's just no telling what comes next in future human history. We keep surprising the mystics and experts alike.

The fascination and endless debate over the imagined worlds of Star Wars, Harry Potter or J.R.R. Tolkien are all a bit ridiculous when you remember what you're debating...a story one person made up. I wrote this mostly out of my inclination to make wryly-amused philosophical sorts of observations of the world around me, so no need to pounce on me for stating the obvious. One should be willing to poke fun at oneself, and here I am in the middle of a slightly absurd place.

[ Wednesday, September 21, 2005 22:55: Message edited by: synergy67 ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Sticky
Infiltrator
Member # 4256
 written Wednesday, September 21 2005 23:07 Profile #267
I would say there is a reason that the greeting motto is 'Leave your sanity at the door".

Besides the insanity of it, some of the people here have known eachother for going on 8-9? years (perhaps longer) and if they or even us 'yearlings' are to have interesting discussions about it, they have to be over an eclectic array of subjects, not just 'Vogelian' ones. This has similar aspects to Star Wars, or other story lines, but its different in that much of it can and is defined by the fan base.
Posts: 564 | Registered: Wednesday, April 14 2004 07:00
Drakefyre
Triad Mage
Member # 7
 written Thursday, September 22 2005 01:20 Profile Homepage #268
It is possible that the Empire had the equivalent of a Thought Crystal when they captured the Crystal Souls, or the Crystal Souls thought that Gaddika and co. were taking them to a new crystal shrine or something.

Most of the Olgai Clan felt that their vengeance was accomplished when they recovered the Crystal Souls and drove the Empire out of Avernum.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
====
Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
desperance.net - We're Everywhere
====
You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Rupert
Agent
Member # 618
 written Friday, September 23 2005 08:27 Profile Homepage #269
Gosh. I guess I should've looked closer, before posting my topic. Eh, that's what I get for being really tired, I guess. :(

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Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
Hjolmar
Apprentice
Member # 3542
 written Friday, September 23 2005 11:28 Profile #270
I dont thinks its the vahnatais, it would be just too obvious, or maybe someone is manipulating or controlling them? I strongly think that there is something greater behind the vahnatais. :)

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Spidersoft maniac
Posts: 17 | Registered: Friday, October 10 2003 07:00
VCH
Shaper
Member # 247
 written Friday, September 23 2005 13:56 Profile Homepage #271
Yes perhaps there is^. Who created the Vahnatai? They too might have been designed as a monster plague to protect Avernum.

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I stop rubber at 160km/h, five times a week.
CANUCKS
RESPEK!
My Style
The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Dark Mage
Infiltrator
Member # 6136
 written Saturday, September 24 2005 18:12 Profile #272
quote:
Originally written by synergy67:

You know what totally weirds me out? The way things like this get discussed online as if it were something real and historic to investigate, analyze, and understand. I'll bet Jeff himself hasn't thought half as much about the implications, insinuations, motivations, and inevitable contradictions in his creation of the Vahnatai and their behavior.
well excuse me sir but this is the "avernum forums" so we are supossed to discuss here of avernum!that the people here take the game very close to their lives is their bussiness.me for example always comment in this games but i still keep my life going!well i really dont like that star trek fans that are so freak :rolleyes: but this forums are for talk about avernum dont you think, antway very close to this forums there is a section called General, in that place you can even discuss about african children if you want!

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Posts: 446 | Registered: Friday, July 22 2005 07:00
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3898
 written Saturday, September 24 2005 18:31 Profile #273
quote:
Originally written by chicho:

quote:
Originally written by synergy67:

You know what totally weirds me out? The way things like this get discussed online as if it were something real and historic to investigate, analyze, and understand. I'll bet Jeff himself hasn't thought half as much about the implications, insinuations, motivations, and inevitable contradictions in his creation of the Vahnatai and their behavior.
well excuse me sir but this is the "avernum forums" so we are supossed to discuss here of avernum!that the people here take the game very close to their lives is their bussiness.me for example always comment in this games but i still keep my life going!well i really dont like that star trek fans that are so freak :rolleyes: but this forums are for talk about avernum dont you think, antway very close to this forums there is a section called General, in that place you can even discuss about african children if you want!
Overreaction of the day.

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LINKAGE
Posts: 364 | Registered: Saturday, January 17 2004 08:00
VCH
Shaper
Member # 247
 written Saturday, September 24 2005 18:38 Profile Homepage #274
It's no more weird than analyzing a book.

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I stop rubber at 160km/h, five times a week.
CANUCKS
RESPEK!
My Style
The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00

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