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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Laki:

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The Dracons are as you said forced to be cruel to shapers but are not forced to create uncontrolable powerfull monster(unbound)that will destroy anything that moves.

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No, just no. Please, I urge you to replay Geneforge 4. The Drakons engaged in conventional warfare against the Shapers. They were smashed. The human/servile resistance was annihilated. The Drakons retreated to Northforge to create the Unbound while the Shapers advanced. Finally, the Unbound were completed, just as the Shapers reached the Northforge Warrens.

It was either release the Unbound and save the Rebellion, or destroy the Unbound and have the Rebellion quashed, and the remaining humans, serviles, drayks, drakons and eyebeasts (we can't forget the poor baby eyebeasts, can we now?) slaughtered.

Releasing the Unbound was justifiable self defense.

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So I think the moral highground has human/servile part of rebellion

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As you so astutely point out, the human/servile part of the Rebellion can afford to have the 'moral highground' because they allow the Drakons to do their dirty work.

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The only Drakon that showed mercy and tolerence is Ghaldring,

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False. I could dig up quotes from numerous Drakons who, at the very least, are willing to tolerate the company of non-Drakons. But I don't know if I should expend the effort, as I feel that you're not arguing in good faith.

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The rest would be all to happy to shred you on the spot.

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Doubly false. Even Salassar, the most anti-human of the Drakons, isn't interested in carrying out a war of extermination against all humans. He merely wishes to break all ties with them.

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No to the first,

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So you agree that the Shapers survival did not depend on their ability to Shape?

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but yes to the second. Most of the developments in shaping came from those experiments.

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False. A rare few developments in Shaping came from numerous Shaping experiments, many of which were cruel and unnecessary. Merely because some experiments brought about advancements, does not mean that all (or even the majority) of experiments performed were necessary or relevant.

For example, one particular Nazi experiment involved bleeding prisoners, and observing the process of blood loss leading to death. Today, that experimental material is used by the medical establishment to determine how much blood loss has occured in a patient who has suffered trauma.

According to your rationale, since one Nazi experiment brought about advancements, then the entire slew of experiments served the greater good.

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Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Try again.

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Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Yes. Much like how the Nazis used to burn prisoners of war with phosphorus bombs, and then examined the wounds. Why would anyone need to mutate glaahks and thahds? What greater good does that serve?

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Oh, and while we're making vaguely related comparisons between Geneforge and real-life events, the Rebels are the equivalent of modern-day terrorists.

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No they aren't. Terrorists delibrately target civilians for political purposes. The Rebels release creations whose role is to kill the Shapers and their allies, but unfortunately cause a lot of collateral damage. A more accurate comparison is with the artillery bombardment employed by first world nations such as the United States and Israel.

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No argument vs. Drayks, but the drakons are bound by neither reason nor mercy (Ghaldring aside).

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False. Your blanket statement is so absurd, I don't think it really requires a rebuttal.

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I apologize. I didn't know Salassar was the picture of mental health.

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He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane.

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Except for the backstabbing, brainwashing, and hypocrisy.

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Backstabbing, brainwashing and hypocrisy? I have never observed such things in the Drakon resistance.

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of innocent bystanders

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Innocent? Are these the same humans who supply the Shapers, feed them, provide equipment for their cruel Shaping experiments, and happily exploit servile labour while baying for Drayk and Drakon blood? Granted, not all humans are Shapers, but they do resemble the Germans who happily profited under Nazi rule. Don't expect any sympathy from me.

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Originally written by Goldenking:

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Oh really? Is the shaping lab behind the Drakon's warrens in Khima-uss out of this so-called necessity? Is the fact that they effectively kicked serviles out of Khima-uss or made them slave labor justified by this so-called necessity?

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I do not recall Khima-Uss, so if you could kindly remind you, I'd be happy to inform you of the Truth.

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I apologize. I didn't know Salassar was the picture of mental health. Now that I do, I'm happy I'm the mentally disturbed person I am.

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I have to object here. He may not have been nice, but he was no Monarch. He was racist, ambitious, greedy, and arrogant, but not insane.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Safey:

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Well in the part of rebellion led by the Drakons its not much better if at all.

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The Drakon part of the Rebellion is significantly better than the Shapers. Considering that the Drakons are getting slaughtered in war of survival while cooperating with two radically different species who tend to regard Drakons with suspicion (and one of which, the humans, is playing a role in their genocide), the fact that they are actually more tolerant and merciful than the Shapers is quite an accomplishment.

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The shapers are cruel and arrogant but so are the drakons.

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Any cruelty demonstrated by the Drakons is out of necessity. If it weren't for Drakon 'cruelty', the Shapers would have already eaten the Rebellion for breakfast.

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The Shapers have no such excuse. Prior to the Rebellion, why did they need to perform cruel experiments on Creations? Did their survival depend on it? Was any 'greater good' served? Shaper research is as twisted and pointless as many experiments performed by Nazi Germany.

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To summarize, I don't hold it against the Drayks/Drakons if they must temporarily sacrifice some of their ideals in order to survive the Shaper onslaught.

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The human rebellion is all but lost. The drakons grow more arrogant and mentally unstable with each generation.

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Arrogant? Debatable, although the incompetence of the human/servile Rebellion has caused the current generation of Drakons to become more arrogant. I disagree that they are becoming more 'mentally unstable', though.

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To me the heart of the rebellion (drakons) are just as bad if not worse then the shapers.

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Here's a simple comparison:

Shapers target the Drakons for genocide for the crime of simply existing.

Drakons do NOT target the humans for genocide, despite a significant proportion of said species (ie. the Shapers) engaging in a campaign to annihilate all Drayk and Drakonian life, while the vast majority of the remaining humans either actively participate in the slaughter, passively assist, or sit back and allow for genocide to continue.

The above comparison makes it clear that the Drakons have the moral highground.

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Originally written by Goldenking:

The Rebels are not alone in loosing rogues upon the population. The Shapers were the ones who loosed all of the rogues in the Forsaken Lands, along with areas of Burwood. More imporatantly, the Shapers were the ones who sent the clawbugs into the Dillame fields, driving away the farmers and nearly killing them. Undoubtedly some did not run fast enough.

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Originally written by Lazarus.:

Way to do it up big. Now if only somebody would port it..... :P

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Okay, so say you're an intelligent servile. You haven't used the Geneforge and you have no real fighting ability. All you want to do is to live your life in peace. Which side looks more appealing? Under the Shapers, you know you're doomed. (Seen any of the Awakened lately? No, because the Shapers wiped them out.) The rebels at least offer the possibility of survival and freedom. (And they initially delivered on that possibility with towns like Khima.)

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There are also plenty of non-powerhungry human rebels as well who joined up because the Shapers failed them. As Blackrabbit said, "...if a town was small enough or poor enough, no matter how many taxes they paid, the Shapers wouldn't help them." The Shapers have governed so poorly that many humans are willing to take their chances with the drakons. And most of the humans who still support the Shapers don't do so because the Shapers are wonderful, moral people. They do so because they have a certain amount of success (or at least, they're certain they can survive) under Shaper rule but aren't guaranteed that under rebel rule.

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Dikiyoba's point is, neither side has the moral high ground and both sides are led by overzealous homicidal tyrants.

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Edit 2: The implication that you would automatically be overzealous and homicidal or hopelessly brainwashed if you weren't human is hiliarious, by the way.

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by Nioca:

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Really? The Rebellion has shown that the only creations they're actually concerned about are the Serviles and the Drayks/Drakons. They've also shown that they'll stoop to even lower means than the shapers to achieve their goals. Finally, they've only really struck at innocent bystanders. So yes, the shapers do hold the moral high-ground.

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The Shapers only have the moral high ground because you're human. If you were an intelligent servile, a drayk, a drakon, or an eyebeast and the Shapers wanted to kill you and all your kind, would you still feel the same way?

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Originally written by Knobgoblinking:

Nioca, I object to that statement. Morally, neither of them have the highground, with genocide for Shapers and the equivelant of WMDs for the Rebels. Meanwhile, the Rebels are far more liberal then the Shapers, if implementing a caste system. Frankly, this is just a radical move to the left, giving far more freedoms to the creations and taking out the dictators. What's more, I have no doubt that with the power of Shaping available to the masses, and the difficulty of controlling the Unbound, that the Drakons would be unable to do anything unpopular.

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