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Originally written by Student of Trinity:

But most people live and die without national media attention. In particular the victims of violent crime are generally ignored. There is no human right to fame. Denying publicity to mass murderers would not be taking from them anything to which they are legitimately entitled.

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Originally written by Arancaytar:

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Originally written by Nioca:

No, is shouldn't be left at that. No matter how depraved a person is, he is (or was) still human. And it should be reported that these things aren't random acts of fate; it's a disgrace to both the killer and his victims. An investigation at least provides a reason, which in turn provides at least a tiny bit of solace to the families who lost one of their own. This guy wasn't some terrorist working for well-known twisted ends that are supplied by blowing innocent people up; he was a fellow citizen who tragically lost his life.

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After the stunning insight that the first part of your post constitutes, the nationalist conclusion is disappointing. Seriously, would it kill you to scratch the terrorist and write "human" instead of "citizen"?

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Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Nioca - You are wrong. Abandon that line of thought now, before your mind is thoroughly riddled with holes.

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Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I think there is a lot of sense in this, and I think it applies even more strongly to spree and serial killers. They should not be named, and nothing about them should be reported. 'A sicko shot some people' would be enough.

Every depressed guy with an ammo crate should know that that would be all the epitaph he would get by going on rampage. Taking away the incentive of posthumous notoriety outweighs any legitimate right the public has to satisfy idle morbid curiosity.

And there is nothing to be gained, anyway, by learning more about a mass murderer, whatever their motivations. Investigating why they did it makes as much sense as interviewing a tumor. Nothing that could possibly turn up from investigation could be adequate explanation, let alone justification. It would still amount, in the end, to 'a sicko shot some people'. We should just leave it at that.

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by Nioca:

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I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

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I think not, because you're missing the entire point of my argument.

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They were trying to prevent a disaster like the one that occurs in GF4 from happening in the first place. But no, revenge is a far worthier cause than trying to prevent catastrophe. :rolleyes:

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The Shapers are commiting the exact same destruction the Rebels are, regardless of their "justification". I could come up with plenty of reasons the Rebels are justified in the amount of destruction they cause. But you probably wouldn't agree with any of those reasons. Similarly, I don't agree with any of your justifications for Shaper behavior either.

Either it's an atrocity for either side or it's a necessary fact of war for either side, but it is not okay for one side to do it and wrong for the other side. All that does is give both sides a free pass to continue doing whatever they've been doing. Small wonder the war is still raging if both sides think the other side's actions are all despicable but their side is totally justified!

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I'm not playing with stereotypes here, and I think you know that as well.

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This may be one of the potential "agree to disagree" points as well, then. I don't draw near the distinction between drakons and the other rebels you do. I sort by ideology, not race.

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by Nioca:

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Or if, you know, the Rebels hadn't drove everyone out and used it as a stronghold.

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Well, if the Shapers had ruled in such a way they hadn't provoked a gigantic rebellion in the first place...

My point is, the Shapers destroyed an entire city. And not out of necessity, but as an example. ("The shredded remains of the rebel army used Thornton to stage its final defense. Then the Shapers blasted the entire place...some of the rebel dead were looted and left to rot, a foul warning to any who would fight the Shapers.") They commit the exact same acts of the destruction as the Rebels.

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Litalia was bragging consistently in GF3 about how Terrestia was in flames. GF3's ending touched upon the carnage the Drakon's were inflicting. And it was mentioned several times that it was the Rebels spreading carnage and destruction. So no, the Rebels are far more willing to destroy than the Shapers.

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Sorry, I have not played G3. But I have already provided two examples of the Shapers causing destruction. Also, if you choose the loyalist ending of G2, the Shapers raze Medab, Rising, and Zhass-Uss to the ground as well. The Shapers are equally willing to destroy whenever they have the opportunity.

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The human rebels aren't the ones that go around slaughtering everything. It's the Drakons that do that.

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Alright, you want to play with racial stereotypes? Fine. The Shapers are human. So it was humans who ordered the destruction of Thornton, humans who want to wipe every intelligent servile, drayk, and drakon off the face of the planet, and humans who kill anyone who disobeys them too much (sometimes by letting them starve in a cage on public display, no less.)

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Also, Therile colony consists of opportunists who could scarcely care less about Shaper law and allegiance. They just wave the banner of shaper supporters so as to exploit the serviles they have there. If the shapers were to find out what's going on there after the war is over... Well, suffice it to say, I doubt he and his sons would mistreat serviles again.

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I'm not too sure about that. The farmer got the serviles directly from the Shapers in the first place. There's the pro-Shaper alchemist, too. And one of the signs reads "THERILE COLONY Rebels and troublemakers not welcome!" So the people of Therile are openly expressing anti-Rebel sentiment and surviving. Judging by the cages in Dillame and the terrified people hiding in Valeya, the same does not hold true in Shaper territory.

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Question - "What will people here think of me?"
Reply - "Not much. This little colony has stayed scrupulously loyal to the Shapers ever since it became clear that the rebellion would be destroyed."

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

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Originally written by Nioca:

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Originally written by Safey:

I think that argueing over which is morally right and which is morally wrong. This is war and both have shown that they will do anthing the win.

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Except that the Shapers are still abiding by most of their rules even while at war. Think about it: No loose rogues killing whatever they might wander into, no leveling random towns for the sake of slaughter, diplomatic dealings with mutinous situations... The Shapers may not be morally right, but they're a considerable improvement over the Drakons.

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And as has been pointed out many times previously on this forum, the situations aren't symmetrical. The Rebels are losing. They are in a more desperate situation than the Shapers, hence they resort to more desperate measures.

The concept of 'desperate times call for desperate measures' is clearly demonstrated by the Rebel ending. When the Shapers are put on the back foot by the Unbound, they unleash their own uncontrollable rogues. And Shapers have the moral highground? Ho hum.

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Thoughts of Chaos:

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If Ghaldring takes the thoughts of other Drakons into account, it's only because he's afraid that his rule will come to a violent end if he doesn't do his absolute best to offend none of them.

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Yep, but as we now both agree, Ghaldring does take the thoughts and opinions of other Drakons into account. This must mean that Ghaldring's beliefs on coexistence with humans must be shared by (at least) a significant number of powerful Drakons. If Ghaldring's beliefs were radically different from that of the majority of Drakons, it follows that he would have been deposed a long time ago.

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And being too independent is being on the verge of waging racial war, at least for the Drakons. The original Drayks, no, but they were close, and there's no telling what a few more generations of Shaping would have done.

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You conclude racial war from the premise of independence. I don't agree with such a train of logic. And I especially don't agree with a policy of irrational fear, where one genocides independent beings merely because they might become a threat.

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but the current war is justified.

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How on earth can the 'current war' perpetuated by the Shapers be justified, when they are merely trying to finish what they have started (ie. The elimination of all Drayks?)

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If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination.

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That's supposition, and contradicted by many in game quotes where many Drayks make it clear that they are willing to coexist along humans.

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But Derenton Freehold is incredibly well staffed. If they tried, they could take back the lands that were lost, if not Poryphra itself.

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If Derenton Freehold was so well staffed, then it wouldn't have lost the surrounding lands in the first place, the Rebel armies wouldn't have been routed, and the Shaper army wouldn't have established a foothold in Poryphra.

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As stated before, Ghaldring's reign is hardly universally acknowledged.

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Ghaldring is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebels. For goodness sake, he was the one who spawned the current Rebellion.

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When you mention to Issss-Ta that the Shapers have infilitrated Northforge: "Issss-Ta looks alarmed by this news. You know what fate befalls any drayk that falls into Shaper hands. Report to Karikiss in the inner Shaping hallsss. He and the other drakonsss can arrange a defense."

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The Drakons may Shape out of necessity, but they do not Shape Unbound out of necessity.

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Yes they do. What happens in the ending where the Unbound are not shaped?

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What we have here is a basic difference of opinion. You think that it is not worthwhile. Nalyd thinks that it is.

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I never said that Shaping isn't worthwhile. What I have said is that some fields of Shaping (the random modification of sentient creatures for warfare) are not worthwhile during centuries of peace.

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Or if, you know, the Shapers hadn't destroyed it.

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Therile is untouched, despite being a town of Shaper sympathizers in Rebel territory.

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Originally written by Safey:

I think that argueing over which is morally right and which is morally wrong. This is war and both have shown that they will do anthing the win.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Nioca:

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While he can be a bit overwhelming, I doubt a single post from Nalyd constitutes a whinefest. I, for one, thought it an appropriate riposte.

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Yes. I found that the following comment was an 'appropriate riposte.'

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You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal.

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I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

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You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Nioca:

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It's interesting to notice how you decided to do this when I started presenting facts that backed up my arguments.

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Was that before or after you called me 'deluded', while having the nerve to utter the term 'friend' in the same insult?

Note how no one protested when you verbally attacked me. In case anyone has forgotten, the insult was something along the lines of: "You, my friend, are deluded".

Yet when I responded with the tongue in cheek comment: "You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?", there is a sudden whinefest.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a little verbal jousting in any argument. But when all an argument consists of is posturing, empty rhetoric and unsupported claims, that's when I begin to lose interest.

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It is apparent my arguments fall on deaf ears when it comes to you, and as such, I'll keep my debate to more reasonable members.

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What arguments are they exactly? Are they the ones which claim that "All Drakons are X", and when I provide quotations to demonstrate that not all Drakons are X, you backpeddle and claim "All Drakons, except Y and Z, are X".

Note that at no time do you provide any actual in game evidence to support your blanket statements. I'm going to have to conclude that you treat your assertions as axioms.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

I also don't have the patience for petty posturing

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Originally written by Jewelz:

Side note: Is anyone else extremely annoyed by spam that quotes pics, or is that just me? It's bad enough that we're assaulted with it once. It's like 10 times as bad the second time around.

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