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It's interesting to notice how you decided to do this when I started presenting facts that backed up my arguments.

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It is apparent my arguments fall on deaf ears when it comes to you, and as such, I'll keep my debate to more reasonable members.

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While he can be a bit overwhelming, I doubt a single post from Nalyd constitutes a whinefest. I, for one, thought it an appropriate riposte.

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You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal.

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SlaughteringSevile, thanks for reformatting that post. I didn't have the patience to respond to a post which was illegible. I also don't have the patience for petty posturing or addressing arguments which have been repeated ad nauseum.

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Ghaldring does rule by being the strongest.

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I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy.

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The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war.

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The Drakons aren't on the verge of waging a racial war.

The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews.

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And, to be honest, you refer to stereotypes.

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I refer to stereotypes in my analogy because the Shaper mentality employs stereotypes to justify their genocide. The Drayks are a potential threat because they are too powerful and independent. The Jews are a potential threat because they are too educated and industrious. I could push the analogy even further, and claim that since humans in the Geneforge universe are capable of learning how to shape vicious monsters and hurl essence lances, they are too dangerous for the drayks, serviles and drakons to let live.

Why is it fine and dandy for humans to target the drayks and Drakons for extermination because they are a 'potential threat', but not for the serviles, drayks or Drakons to target the human race for extermination? Because humans are, well, humanoid?

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No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers.

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False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example:

Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

"You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

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The Drakons were hardly "crushed" in conventional warfare. They barely even fought.

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First, I'd like to address the comment that the Drakons 'barely even fought' the Shapers in convential warfare

Quoted from the Rebel ending (which is considered canon) in Geneforge 3:

"From all over Terrestia, we have grim reports. The drakons... the rogues... they are everywhere... We are being slaughtered."

"The Ashen Isles and Poryphra are your base of operations. You fight many battles. You are always victorious. Sometimes your forces fight alone, sometimes they are aided by Ur-Drakons..."

I fail to see how the drakons can be 'everywhere', slaughtering Shapers and assisting human/servile rebel forces, without barely even fighting.

As to the issue of the Drakons taking great losses:

Barstow:
"Tell me about the drakons." "The rebellion has two parts, the humans and the creations. The drakons are the leaders of the creations. Gigantic, majestic, powerful reptile creatures. I've only seen one once, but I will never forget it." "They used to fight often in the war, as I understand it. In the north, I mean. But they took great losses, and now they keep to themselves."

Also note what Alwan has to say about the matter:
"How goes the war?" "That is a very good question. We Shapers are advancing on all fronts. Control of the land, the air, the sea. The rebels have been routed into these northern lands, and our infiltrators harry them at every turn."

And let us not forget the introduction to Geneforge 4:

"And so the rebellion began. It was an alliance of humans tired of Shaper rule, and of intelligent creations who wanted to be free. They rose up, stole some of their master's power, and attacked. At first, the Shapers were caught by surprise. Much of Eastern half of Terrestia was lost... But then the Shapers regrouped, and their armies came. The rebels have been pushed back. Their lands have been burned. Lost refugees, both human and creation, wander the rubble."

Of course, you could continue to argue that the Drakons 'didn't bother' to fight conventional warfare. All this would mean is that when Jeff uses the term 'rebels', he means only the servile/human half of the Rebellion. And the term 'intelligent creations' doesn't refer to Drakons. It would also mean that the serviles and humans managed to conquer the Eastern half of Terrestia without Drakon assistance. And that Barstow is lying. But to be honest, I don't find the above assumptions very tenable.

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The Drakons have more or less abandoned the human Rebellion the humans have to fend for themselves, and with quite a bit less resources than the Drakons, and seem to be doing quite well surviving.

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Um, what? The humans have lost the Forsaken Lands, the Southern Geneforge, and Illya Province. A strong Shaper force retook Poryphra and the lands surrounding Derenton Freehold. The human/servile alliance's "Plan B" involves hoping that the Drakons will complete their grand project, and save the Rebellion's ass.

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But why are the Serviles of lower rank? Because they have less inborn fighting ability? They are more mentally stable? They are less violently radical? They are less bloodthirsty? Why?

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Because:

1. Ghaldring, a Drakon, is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebellion. Even high ranking human rebels, such as Lilita and Greta, defer to him. Hence his edicts are given highest priority. This means that when Ghaldring orders one of his Drakon subordinates to manage a village in the name of the Rebellion, the inhabitants of that village must also obey Ghaldring's subordinates

2. Non-Drakons are of lower rank in regards to the organisation of resistance because Drakons are the most effective soldiers. Once again, this is universally acknowledged by the servile/human resistance.

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Not entirely, no, Shaper survival did not depend on their ability to Shape. It certainly didn't hurt, but beyond the first tumultuous war for supremacy, Shaping was not necessary.

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So why do you fail to condemn the Shapers for engaging in cruel Shaping experiments, while moaning and whining about Drakons doing the same thing? Especially given that the Drakons shape out of necessity, whereas the Shapers do not.

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Knowledge does not come without a price. If the Nazis had not engaged in such violent research, how many would have died due to lack of knowledge?

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How many people would not have died or suffered if the Nazis hadn't engaged in cruel and unnecessary experiments, such as burning prisoners with phosphorus bombs so that doctors could examine the wounds?

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The only reason that Shaping has not brought about untold benefits is that the research is insanely, horrifically, complicated. More or less like shooting radiation at chicken embryos to try and make them into cows. And most of this research is directed at warfare.

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At last you're starting to grasp my point, after we've been going around in circles for God knows how long. As we both agree, the vast majority of Shaper research is directed at warfare. But why? Why is research into a better thahd or glaak necessary during an era of peace? How does such research contribute to the betterment of society?
Such research is unnecessary, horridly cruel and wasteful (the resources expended on this frivolous Shaping could be spent on grain to feed villages suffering famine). Merely because the Shapers occassionally perform useful research does not excuse the vast majority of their other research, which is cruel and unnecessary.

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The desire to gain knowledge, perverse? Never. Never. Your prejudice towards happy ignorance is too blatant here. Nalyd will leave you to it, Eloi, and wait with the other Morlocks.

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The desire to gain knowledge purely for knowledge's sake, while inflicting horrendous suffering on sentient beings in the process, is perverse. This isn't just my opinion, it's the unanimous opinion of international and national bodies who helped frame guidelines and laws for ethical scientific research (read the Nuremburg Code, the Helsinki Declaration, or the research ethic guidelines of your nation). In order to fulfil the requirement for ethical conduct of research, researchers must demonstrate that their research isn't frivilous, and it minimizes harm to the participants, whether human or animal.

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I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

Oh, and note how he tells me not to be an idiot, while in the same breath stating that we should keep the debate impersonal. Such a tactic is surely conducive to a pleasant and to the point discussion.

It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it.

So let's end this posturing and empty rhetoric, and get back to the discussion at hand, hmmm? You could start by providing some sort of evidence to support your blanket statements regarding the Drakon race. You claim that you've already posted this evidence, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to comb through your previous posts and paste it into a new reply, minus the prattle and insults.

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I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy.

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The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war.

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The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews.

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No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers.

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False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example:

Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

"You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

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I took 30 minutes of my life to make this hope your happy

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Nioca:

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While he can be a bit overwhelming, I doubt a single post from Nalyd constitutes a whinefest. I, for one, thought it an appropriate riposte.

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Yes. I found that the following comment was an 'appropriate riposte.'

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You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal.

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I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

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You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?

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I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy.

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The Drakons aren't on the verge of waging a racial war.

The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews.

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I refer to stereotypes in my analogy because the Shaper mentality employs stereotypes to justify their genocide. The Drayks are a potential threat because they are too powerful and independent. The Jews are a potential threat because they are too educated and industrious. I could push the analogy even further, and claim that since humans in the Geneforge universe are capable of learning how to shape vicious monsters and hurl essence lances, they are too dangerous for the drayks, serviles and drakons to let live.

Why is it fine and dandy for humans to target the drayks and Drakons for extermination because they are a 'potential threat', but not for the serviles, drayks or Drakons to target the human race for extermination? Because humans are, well, humanoid?

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False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example:

Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

"You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

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First, I'd like to address the comment that the Drakons 'barely even fought' the Shapers in convential warfare

Quoted from the Rebel ending (which is considered canon) in Geneforge 3:

"From all over Terrestia, we have grim reports. The drakons... the rogues... they are everywhere... We are being slaughtered."

"The Ashen Isles and Poryphra are your base of operations. You fight many battles. You are always victorious. Sometimes your forces fight alone, sometimes they are aided by Ur-Drakons..."

I fail to see how the drakons can be 'everywhere', slaughtering Shapers and assisting human/servile rebel forces, without barely even fighting.

As to the issue of the Drakons taking great losses:

Barstow:
"Tell me about the drakons." "The rebellion has two parts, the humans and the creations. The drakons are the leaders of the creations. Gigantic, majestic, powerful reptile creatures. I've only seen one once, but I will never forget it." "They used to fight often in the war, as I understand it. In the north, I mean. But they took great losses, and now they keep to themselves."

Also note what Alwan has to say about the matter:
"How goes the war?" "That is a very good question. We Shapers are advancing on all fronts. Control of the land, the air, the sea. The rebels have been routed into these northern lands, and our infiltrators harry them at every turn."

And let us not forget the introduction to Geneforge 4:

"And so the rebellion began. It was an alliance of humans tired of Shaper rule, and of intelligent creations who wanted to be free. They rose up, stole some of their master's power, and attacked. At first, the Shapers were caught by surprise. Much of Eastern half of Terrestia was lost... But then the Shapers regrouped, and their armies came. The rebels have been pushed back. Their lands have been burned. Lost refugees, both human and creation, wander the rubble."

Of course, you could continue to argue that the Drakons 'didn't bother' to fight conventional warfare. All this would mean is that when Jeff uses the term 'rebels', he means only the servile/human half of the Rebellion. And the term 'intelligent creations' doesn't refer to Drakons. It would also mean that the serviles and humans managed to conquer the Eastern half of Terrestia without Drakon assistance. And that Barstow is lying. But to be honest, I don't find the above assumptions very tenable.

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Um, what? The humans have lost the Forsaken Lands, the Southern Geneforge, and Illya Province. A strong Shaper force retook Poryphra and the lands surrounding Derenton Freehold. The human/servile alliance's "Plan B" involves hoping that the Drakons will complete their grand project, and save the Rebellion's ass.

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1. Ghaldring, a Drakon, is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebellion. Even high ranking human rebels, such as Lilita and Greta, defer to him. Hence his edicts are given highest priority. This means that when Ghaldring orders one of his Drakon subordinates to manage a village in the name of the Rebellion, the inhabitants of that village must also obey Ghaldring's subordinates

2. Non-Drakons are of lower rank in regards to the organisation of resistance because Drakons are the most effective soldiers. Once again, this is universally acknowledged by the servile/human resistance.

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So why do you fail to condemn the Shapers for engaging in cruel Shaping experiments, while moaning and whining about Drakons doing the same thing? Especially given that the Drakons shape out of necessity, whereas the Shapers do not.

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How many people would not have died or suffered if the Nazis hadn't engaged in cruel and unnecessary experiments, such as burning prisoners with phosphorus bombs so that doctors could examine the wounds?

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At last you're starting to grasp my point, after we've been going around in circles for God knows how long. As we both agree, the vast majority of Shaper research is directed at warfare. But why? Why is research into a better thahd or glaak necessary during an era of peace? How does such research contribute to the betterment of society?
Such research is unnecessary, horridly cruel and wasteful (the resources expended on this frivolous Shaping could be spent on grain to feed villages suffering famine). Merely because the Shapers occasionally perform useful research does not excuse the vast majority of their other research, which is cruel and unnecessary.

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The desire to gain knowledge purely for knowledge's sake, while inflicting horrendous suffering on sentient beings in the process, is perverse. This isn't just my opinion, it's the unanimous opinion of international and national bodies who helped frame guidelines and laws for ethical scientific research (read the Nuremburg Code, the Helsinki Declaration, or the research ethic guidelines of your nation). In order to fulfill the requirement for ethical conduct of research, researchers must demonstrate that their research isn't frivolous, and it minimizes harm to the participants, whether human or animal.

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Was that before or after you called me 'deluded', while having the nerve to utter the term 'friend' in the same insult?

Note how no one protested when you verbally attacked me. In case anyone has forgotten, the insult was something along the lines of: "You, my friend, are deluded".

Yet when I responded with the tongue in cheek comment: "You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?", there is a sudden whinefest.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a little verbal jousting in any argument. But when all an argument consists of is posturing, empty rhetoric and unsupported claims, that's when I begin to lose interest.

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I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

Oh, and note how he tells me not to be an idiot, while in the same breath stating that we should keep the debate impersonal. Such a tactic is surely conducive to a pleasant and to the point discussion.

It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it.

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3 Icon 1 written December 04, 2007 04:35 PM Profile for Lepus timidus Email Lepus timidus Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Nioca:

quote:
While he can be a bit overwhelming, I doubt a single post from Nalyd constitutes a whinefest. I, for one, thought it an appropriate riposte.

Yes. I found that the following comment was an 'appropriate riposte.'

quote:
You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal.

I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

Oh, and note how he tells me not to be an idiot, while in the same breath stating that we should keep the debate impersonal. Such a tactic is surely conducive to a pleasant and to the point discussion.

It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it.

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Originally written by Safey:

I think that argueing over which is morally right and which is morally wrong. This is war and both have shown that they will do anthing the win.

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Or if, you know, the Shapers hadn't destroyed it.

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Therile is untouched, despite being a town of Shaper sympathizers in Rebel territory.

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Or if, you know, the Rebels hadn't drove everyone out and used it as a stronghold.

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Litalia was bragging consistently in GF3 about how Terrestia was in flames. GF3's ending touched upon the carnage the Drakon's were inflicting. And it was mentioned several times that it was the Rebels spreading carnage and destruction. So no, the Rebels are far more willing to destroy than the Shapers.

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The human rebels aren't the ones that go around slaughtering everything. It's the Drakons that do that.

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Also, Therile colony consists of opportunists who could scarcely care less about Shaper law and allegiance. They just wave the banner of shaper supporters so as to exploit the serviles they have there. If the shapers were to find out what's going on there after the war is over... Well, suffice it to say, I doubt he and his sons would mistreat serviles again.

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by Nioca:

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Or if, you know, the Rebels hadn't drove everyone out and used it as a stronghold.

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Well, if the Shapers had ruled in such a way they hadn't provoked a gigantic rebellion in the first place...

My point is, the Shapers destroyed an entire city. And not out of necessity, but as an example. ("The shredded remains of the rebel army used Thornton to stage its final defense. Then the Shapers blasted the entire place...some of the rebel dead were looted and left to rot, a foul warning to any who would fight the Shapers.") They commit the exact same acts of the destruction as the Rebels.

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Litalia was bragging consistently in GF3 about how Terrestia was in flames. GF3's ending touched upon the carnage the Drakon's were inflicting. And it was mentioned several times that it was the Rebels spreading carnage and destruction. So no, the Rebels are far more willing to destroy than the Shapers.

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Sorry, I have not played G3. But I have already provided two examples of the Shapers causing destruction. Also, if you choose the loyalist ending of G2, the Shapers raze Medab, Rising, and Zhass-Uss to the ground as well. The Shapers are equally willing to destroy whenever they have the opportunity.

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The human rebels aren't the ones that go around slaughtering everything. It's the Drakons that do that.

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Alright, you want to play with racial stereotypes? Fine. The Shapers are human. So it was humans who ordered the destruction of Thornton, humans who want to wipe every intelligent servile, drayk, and drakon off the face of the planet, and humans who kill anyone who disobeys them too much (sometimes by letting them starve in a cage on public display, no less.)

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Also, Therile colony consists of opportunists who could scarcely care less about Shaper law and allegiance. They just wave the banner of shaper supporters so as to exploit the serviles they have there. If the shapers were to find out what's going on there after the war is over... Well, suffice it to say, I doubt he and his sons would mistreat serviles again.

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I'm not too sure about that. The farmer got the serviles directly from the Shapers in the first place. There's the pro-Shaper alchemist, too. And one of the signs reads "THERILE COLONY Rebels and troublemakers not welcome!" So the people of Therile are openly expressing anti-Rebel sentiment and surviving. Judging by the cages in Dillame and the terrified people hiding in Valeya, the same does not hold true in Shaper territory.

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Question - "What will people here think of me?"
Reply - "Not much. This little colony has stayed scrupulously loyal to the Shapers ever since it became clear that the rebellion would be destroyed."

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