Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll

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AuthorTopic: Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #25
Since Canada is a constitutional monarchy, rather than a republic, a Canadian Republican party would have to be about getting rid of the monarchy. No doubt that measure will grow in popularity, especially once Charles succeeds. (Whatever his personal merits may be, the idea of having a hereditary head of state living in another country needs all the support from familiarity, and respect for the incumbent, that it can get.)

But the vast majority of Canadians would rather have a Martian as their head of state, than vote for a party named after a major American one.

[ Saturday, November 03, 2007 23:56: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #26
Originally by Nioca:

quote:
Really? The Rebellion has shown that the only creations they're actually concerned about are the Serviles and the Drayks/Drakons. They've also shown that they'll stoop to even lower means than the shapers to achieve their goals. Finally, they've only really struck at innocent bystanders. So yes, the shapers do hold the moral high-ground.
The Shapers only have the moral high ground because you're human. If you were an intelligent servile, a drayk, a drakon, or an eyebeast and the Shapers wanted to kill you and all your kind, would you still feel the same way?

Dikiyoba.

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Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #27
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by Nioca:

quote:
Really? The Rebellion has shown that the only creations they're actually concerned about are the Serviles and the Drayks/Drakons. They've also shown that they'll stoop to even lower means than the shapers to achieve their goals. Finally, they've only really struck at innocent bystanders. So yes, the shapers do hold the moral high-ground.
The Shapers only have the moral high ground because you're human. If you were an intelligent servile, a drayk, a drakon, or an eyebeast and the Shapers wanted to kill you and all your kind, would you still feel the same way?

No, but overzealous homicidal tyrants rarely do (aside from the serviles, who're merely getting dragged forward by the other races into their doom, brainwashed into thinking that they're fighting for freedom).

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Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 11521
Profile #28
Personally, I think everyone is wrong (at least in G3 and G4). Shapers are dictators, Rebels are uncontrollable maniacs, and Trakovites have a point, but that point is blown out of proportion. If forced to choose sides, I'd have to go with the Shapers, though. The Rebels in G3 caused a lot more damage to the people then the Shapers, and in G4...hell, the Rebels are going to kill everyone.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Wednesday, October 31 2007 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #29
Originally by Nioca
quote:
No, but overzealous homicidal tyrants rarely do (aside from the serviles, who're merely getting dragged forward by the other races into their doom, brainwashed into thinking that they're fighting for freedom).
Okay, so say you're an intelligent servile. You haven't used the Geneforge and you have no real fighting ability. All you want to do is to live your life in peace. Which side looks more appealing? Under the Shapers, you know you're doomed. (Seen any of the Awakened lately? No, because the Shapers wiped them out.) The rebels at least offer the possibility of survival and freedom. (And they initially delivered on that possibility with towns like Khima.)

There are also plenty of non-powerhungry human rebels as well who joined up because the Shapers failed them. As Blackrabbit said, "...if a town was small enough or poor enough, no matter how many taxes they paid, the Shapers wouldn't help them." The Shapers have governed so poorly that many humans are willing to take their chances with the drakons. And most of the humans who still support the Shapers don't do so because the Shapers are wonderful, moral people. They do so because they have a certain amount of success (or at least, they're certain they can survive) under Shaper rule but aren't guaranteed that under rebel rule.

Dikiyoba's point is, neither side has the moral high ground and both sides are led by overzealous homicidal tyrants.

Edit: Fixed quote.

[ Sunday, November 04, 2007 10:07: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]

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Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 9887
Profile #30
The only way to solve this arguement is to get rid of shaping completely. Everyone would need to rethink their battle plans, since now no one can suvive for months anymore, which would mean they would need to watch out for the common people who grow the food.

[ Sunday, November 04, 2007 13:25: Message edited by: The Ratt ]

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Let's all just shape gazers and hope it goes away.

I make guacamole at work
Posts: 454 | Registered: Monday, August 20 2007 07:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #31
But that simply won't happen, unless almost everyone capable of Shaping was almost simultaneously assassinated. If a non-Shaping army wages war on an army with Shaping, they will be decimated. Nalyd also does not want it to happen. The elimination of Shaping for military means, perhaps Nalyd would support, but the abolishment of Shaping?. . . No.

As to Rebels vs. Shapers, Nalyd would definitely agree that they're both almost equally evil. The Shapers are synonymous to the Mafia and other organized crime in their "protection" policies, and they have taken creation inferiority, creation slavery, the lack of Shaping more intelligent and less subservient creations, slavery, oppression of common people through Shaping, and rigid, foolish control of Shaping almost to the point of a religion. The Rebels, on the other hand, are engaged in the self-destructive practice of self-Shaping, are blood/power hungry, and desperate. That is not a good combination, and even if they do win, how long will their government last before another blood and body-strewn Rebellion? The Drakons simply weren't designed for peacetime, and Nalyd can't imagine them having a stable government for any length of time.

As things stand, Nalyd would be forced to side with the Shapers. He doesn't foresee massive casualties under their rule, and a stable governmental structure seems likely, if not assured. If the Drakons did not rule the Rebellion, Nalyd would certainly side with them, but the death of the Drakons would more or less doom the Rebellion. As to the Trakovites. . . Nalyd stated his views on Shaping before. Elimination from warfare, possibly (Though horribly unlikely), but elimination? Not ever. If given any choice, Nalyd's preferred faction would be-
Complete creation freedom, excepting cases (like Ornks) where they would not be intelligent or independent enough to choose. In those cases, Shape future generations to be more intelligent and independent.

Very loose control of Shaping, like everyone being required to take an aptitude test and them being expelled if they show a tendency to irresponsible Shaping.

NO self-Shaping of species intelligent enough to choose freedom or slavery. This includes no canisters or Geneforges.

No social elevation of Shapers, or their equivalent. Perhaps on par with mages as being valuable sources of knowledge and skilled in combat.

[ Sunday, November 04, 2007 18:02: Message edited by: Thoughts in Chaos ]

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #32
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Okay, so say you're an intelligent servile. You haven't used the Geneforge and you have no real fighting ability. All you want to do is to live your life in peace. Which side looks more appealing? Under the Shapers, you know you're doomed. (Seen any of the Awakened lately? No, because the Shapers wiped them out.) The rebels at least offer the possibility of survival and freedom. (And they initially delivered on that possibility with towns like Khima.)
Who says it was the shapers who wiped out the Awakened? They had another enemy as well: the Takers, now known as the Rebels.

As for the question, assuming the servile doesn't know all of the facts, rebel.

quote:
There are also plenty of non-powerhungry human rebels as well who joined up because the Shapers failed them. As Blackrabbit said, "...if a town was small enough or poor enough, no matter how many taxes they paid, the Shapers wouldn't help them." The Shapers have governed so poorly that many humans are willing to take their chances with the drakons. And most of the humans who still support the Shapers don't do so because the Shapers are wonderful, moral people. They do so because they have a certain amount of success (or at least, they're certain they can survive) under Shaper rule but aren't guaranteed that under rebel rule.
First, the human side of the rebellion is moot at this point. They're probably the people I'd side with, if it weren't for the fact that they apply the same tactics as their Drakon counterparts.

Second, define many. I don't exactly see people jumping ship right and left to support the rebels. In fact, I'm seeing rebels defecting to support the shapers.

Finally, those worst off probably would want to join the rebellion, simply because it sounds better and seems like a just cause.

quote:
Dikiyoba's point is, neither side has the moral high ground and both sides are led by overzealous homicidal tyrants.
And my point is just the opposite. The shapers have done some terrible things, don't get me wrong. But there's a world of difference between doing bad things for a good reason (such as, oh, massive amounts of death and destruction) and doing bad things for a bad reason or none at all (like the Drakon's personal vendetta).

quote:
Edit 2: The implication that you would automatically be overzealous and homicidal or hopelessly brainwashed if you weren't human is hiliarious, by the way.
That's not what I'm saying at all, nor is it my opinion.

[ Sunday, November 04, 2007 18:01: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #33
Originally by Nioca:

quote:
Finally, those worst off probably would want to join the rebellion, simply because it sounds better and seems like a just cause.
This is exactly my point. The Shapers sound better and seem more just from your viewpoint, but to poor villagers who pay taxes to the Shapers but are left to starve when a famine hits or to the serviles and drayks who've had to flee their homes and lost the ones they cared about because of the Shapers' policy against "rogue creations", it's exactly the opposite. The Shapers are the villains who cause unjustified death and destruction. The rebels are the heroes who are just doing what they have to do. Neither side has a moral advantage over the other.

(Dikiyoba had a longer response typed up, and then Dikiyoba decided Dikiyoba would rather just focus on the main point for now instead of trying to juggle several minor points.)

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Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 5545
Profile Homepage #34
I guess I'm a leftist either way.

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Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est.
Posts: 344 | Registered: Friday, February 25 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
Profile #35
About who would I want to side with I have to say this:

"Its better to be dead than enslaved" and "Life is pointless without freedom"
So its rebells.

I agree that rebells have suicidel tactiks but its forth a try if freedom is a result.And I think rebells do have some sort of goverment becouse if they didnt have any they would be crushed in a second by shapers.And why would anyone want to rebell if they are free from oppresion and have everything they need to survive.Or even if thats not enough for them they could create many small, independent countries with its own goverment.

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Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #36
How are the Rebels any less autocratic than the Shapers? I would argue the opposite. Though it seems most of the nobility has taken up shaping, many smaller towns and even some larger ones are governed by non-shaper humans. Rebel lands, on the other hand, are, more often than not, lorded over directly be some kind of drakon overseer. You all seem to take for granted the many freedoms afforded by Shaper rule. People live in peace and prosperity under Shaper rule, creations are well taken care of. But even creations must grovel in the presence of drakon masters on the rebel side. The drakon's couldn't even be bothered when the human administrated Southforge fell.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
Profile Homepage #37
quote:
ow are the Rebels any less autocratic than the Shapers? I would argue the opposite. Though it seems most of the nobility has taken up shaping, many smaller towns and even some larger ones are governed by non-shaper humans. Rebel lands, on the other hand, are, more often than not, lorded over directly be some kind of drakon overseer. You all seem to take for granted the many freedoms afforded by Shaper rule. People live in peace and prosperity under Shaper rule, creations are well taken care of. But even creations must grovel in the presence of drakon masters on the rebel side. The drakon's couldn't even be bothered when the human administrated Southforge fell.
Written by ET

Yes, you had a good life if you lived in towns that where guarded by something like Rivergate Keep, if you didn't have any shaping or war advantage the shapers would forget you and your town with the exception of taxes. "Peace and prosperity" pfft, only if you were rich and lived right next to rivergate keep

Honestly, both sides are screwed up, the shapers are a-morale, chauvinistic of beings who are smart and aren't human and they are only interested in something if it helps them win or it is a parasite of evil to them.

Rebels (at least the drakons) will do anything to win over the Shapers which makes them almost as bad. But, they don't prosecute humans for being the same race as shapers. Now i am probably going to be bombarded with comments saying "what about the dryaks" well they are, from the drakons point of view, a less evolved version of them, which might be a flaw in their shaping, like their greed for gold. and as for the serviles, what else is there to do? They have 3 choices:
1: Become a mindless, laborer in a shaper keep
2: Hide in a town and dread the day they find you
3: Become a Rebel and hope to stop the shapers
And also drakons don't go on Holocausts killing all humans in sight just because they are intelligent and not a drakon, unlike a "few" shapers you know about.

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Life's important Questions:
What is the best Artifact
Gloves of Savagery
Is there a more uber sword that the Puresteel Soulblade: No
Vie va la Travokites
Vie va la Kyryk
Vie va la Serviles
Vie va la Dryaks
Your incompidence is your own fault
Before you complain, ask yourself, does anyone care? The answer, of course is No.
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 9887
Profile #38
Hail fellow Trakovite!

You are forgetting that most of the towns in the forsaken lands were doing okay (they weren't going to die out in 20 years) or quite well. Therile had hired tough guards which it couldn't have done without money (yes I know there was harsh servile labor, I object to that).

I don't think that people went on a manhunt for serviles that were intelligent, but followed orders. The rebellion is part intelligent serviles who rebelled against cruel treatment (which isn't as common as they make it sound, in Shaper Camp Gamma the guy cared for the serviles), and partially because they had nothing better to do. Think about it this way, you work for 8 to 10 hours a day. Being made for this, it doesn't bother you working that long, you just get bored when you aren't working. You ask for something to do, but the overseer denies you. What would you do?

At this point in the war those are basically the choices a servile could have but if the shapers just gave serviles something to do they might have a much smaller rebellion to deal with.

About the going on a holocaust against species, only a few shapers actually go looking for drakons, eyebeasts, and drayks to kill. Unless the Drakon or drayk is actually close by or they are being a nuisence, most shapers won't go out of their way to hunt them down.

As Slaughtering said, the only side that has a morally correct arguement is the Trakovites, which you can't actually join (Arrgh).

Hail the Trakovites.

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Let's all just shape gazers and hope it goes away.

I make guacamole at work
Posts: 454 | Registered: Monday, August 20 2007 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #39
I think the morality of Shapers is still quite underestimated here. Remember that one town, Valeya, I think. The guardian there was supposed to be infiltrating Rebel lands, sabotaging and spying and all that rot. But he isn't doing those things when you find him, he is patrolling the town, a town on the front, no, a town beyond enemy lines to protect its inhabitants. Where are these heartless, cruel people that are being spoken of?

They take good care of creations, treating them just as well as drakons do, if not better, since they require more care than independant creations do. The drakons go so far as to aurthorize you (and help you, personally) to wipe out a nest of intellligent and independant ice drayks at one point. They even turn on their own kind whenever they get the chance.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #40
What other villages are there? Nalyd can only recall two abandoned Shaper villages (Not counting Poryphra), and both were being tirelessly occupied by troops from one side or another, and being vigorously attacked by both sides. The farmers around Rivergate had all been withdrawn into the city, and there simply weren't any other towns.

By the way, Nalyd is getting damn annoyed with all the "Vive la crappy Rebellion figure" signatures.

[ Monday, November 05, 2007 18:50: Message edited by: Thoughts in Chaos ]

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #41
quote:
Originally written by Thoughts in Chaos:

By the way, Nalyd is getting damn annoyed with all the "Vive la crappy Rebellion figure" signatures.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion (even if they are wrong) but he could at least spell things right. It's "Trakovites" and "Khyryk" and "drayks." The non-Geneforge world words spelled wrong don't bother me so much.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 10304
Profile #42
What makes Trakovite viewpoint flawed is lack of realism. They are idealists, presenting a philosophy that answers some questions of ethical nature, but they don't have a valid theory as how the world economics could be upkept in shape without shaping. Remember, in the Geneforge world shaping influences almost every aspect of life. The plant growth is aided with shaping, the tools are shaped, serviles were shaped strong so that they could do muscle-intensive jobs much more efficiently than humans.
The Trakovites don't mention how would they see the world running without shaping. They only call it evil, period.
As for the Shapers and the Rebellion, in both groups you can find different members, some compassionate, some very narrowminded, some with liberal views and some very conservative. But still, when looking at the top of these two organisations, whatever they say it is a simple struggle for power. The shapers want to keep their rule, the drakons want to replace them. You may think that the creations would be better off under the rule of the drakons, but it is very possible that humans would be used as a sort of slave race instead of serviles. And the drama would be the same, only with different actors.

I would find it more feasible for me to join the Shapers, even just because that I don't believe in Machiavellan "The purpose makes every tool correct" that the non-human Rebellion puts into practice.

Addon: I just thought of something funny. Imagine that the Rebellion is victorious, and the humans are completely annihilated as a result. You have a world ran by creations only, and because their creators ceased to exist, they stop being creations. Couple of hundreds years later, a member of the Drakon Council seeking to gain more power, in the secrecy of his laboratories started to create... Humans. Seeing how they are intelligent and useful, he started to make lots of them. Everyone starts to make lots of humans. Then the renegade Drakon goes to Sucia Island and takes his humans with him to work with no interference from the Council. Much later a young drakon-apprentice is sent on a living craft to investigate the island, and there you have it - Jeff could make another four games based on that, and it would create a loop of sorts, so that he could make hundreds of Geneforge sequels being obliged only to make some cosmetical changes (logo, about box etc.) :)

[ Tuesday, November 06, 2007 01:14: Message edited by: kkarski ]
Posts: 24 | Registered: Thursday, September 6 2007 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
Profile #43
The only(but necessary)part of rebellion which is cruel and dictatorship as shapers are dracons.If there tendency to rule the others could be controled rebells would have a bright future.But becouse of the dracons there is a possibility that one dictatot be replaced by anotherone.But if it really goes so far that could always lead to another rebellion.

And that could be possible to make plot of G5 like this:
Rebellion is victorius and shapers destroyed but dracons have simply took their role and humans who once fought aside dracons are now fighting for freedom and creating another rebellion against the dracons and creations.They retreated to Ashen islands which dracons have no plans of rulling and trying to free the world of dracon tyrany and create a world free of dictatorsip, free for creations and humans and with no social inequality were everyone lives in harmony...

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You must show me respect becouse...never mind why but do respect me!
All hail me, your...something.
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Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
Profile Homepage #44
Originally written by kkarski
quote:
What makes Trakovite viewpoint flawed is lack of realism. They are idealists, presenting a philosophy that answers some questions of ethical nature, but they don't have a valid theory as how the world economics could be upkept in shape without shaping. Remember, in the Geneforge world shaping influences almost every aspect of life. The plant growth is aided with shaping, the tools are shaped, serviles were shaped strong so that they could do muscle-intensive jobs much more efficiently than humans.
The Trakovites don't mention how would they see the world running without shaping. They only call it evil, period.
As for the Shapers and the Rebellion, in both groups you can find different members, some compassionate, some very narrowminded, some with liberal views and some very conservative. But still, when looking at the top of these two organisations, whatever they say it is a simple struggle for power. The shapers want to keep their rule, the drakons want to replace them. You may think that the creations would be better off under the rule of the drakons, but it is very possible that humans would be used as a sort of slave race instead of serviles. And the drama would be the same, only with different actors.
Yes, the Travokites don't mention that because they don't know what to do about it, but they still have the idea which is better than other things

Drakons are a pain in the ass, I personally would like them to wither away and have the dryaks and serviles lead the rebellion without the tyranny of drakons, like a dryak and/or servile version of Greta, quote the game "she had the tactfulness and strength of a drakon, and without the arrogence". Obviously, that would make the game less interesting through lack of flaws in the rebellion.
Origanally written by ET
quote:
I think the morality of Shapers is still quite underestimated here. Remember that one town, Valeya, I think. The guardian there was supposed to be infiltrating Rebel lands, sabotaging and spying and all that rot. But he isn't doing those things when you find him, he is patrolling the town, a town on the front, no, a town beyond enemy lines to protect its inhabitants. Where are these heartless, cruel people that are being spoken of?
He wasn't patrolling the town, he was looking for rebels and trying to keep anyone from the Enchanted Anvil.

I think that the shapers rule by following cold, cruel logic, Rebels live by how they think they should, and Travokites live (or try to live) by ethics, they think shaping is evil.
Oi, that was long

[ Tuesday, November 06, 2007 13:04: Message edited by: SlaughteringSevile ]

--------------------
Life's important Questions:
What is the best Artifact
Gloves of Savagery
Is there a more uber sword that the Puresteel Soulblade: No
Vie va la Travokites
Vie va la Kyryk
Vie va la Serviles
Vie va la Dryaks
Your incompidence is your own fault
Before you complain, ask yourself, does anyone care? The answer, of course is No.
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 6830
Profile #45
Why democrat and shaper? Well, the Rebels have their whole doomsday thing going on, and are quite often a bit mad due to the use of canisters. Really, I don't think being Democrat means 'Get rid of the Republicans, even if it involves DESTROYING THE WORLD WITH MASSIVE BIO WEAPONS.'
Posts: 7 | Registered: Friday, February 24 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 9887
Profile #46
That was... an interesting take on things.... Don't get it... but interesting....

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Let's all just shape gazers and hope it goes away.

I make guacamole at work
Posts: 454 | Registered: Monday, August 20 2007 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #47
This is the vibe I'm getting: orderly genocide (Shapers/Nazis) is prefered over chaotic destruction (Rebels/Soviets). So you guys all seem to prefer Hitler over Stalin. Interesting choice.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #48
Well, the degree of genocide practiced by Hitler more or less exceeded the degree of destruction practiced by Stalin. And the destruction of the Rebels exceeds the genocide of the Shapers.

[ Tuesday, November 06, 2007 18:09: Message edited by: Thoughts in Chaos ]

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 10578
Profile Homepage #49
Shapers: A few dangerous races disappear. Cruel, perhaps, but clearly the lesser of two evils.

Rebels: Those few races do OK, but everyone and everything else gets ripped apart by crazy Unbound.

Conclusion: The Shapers may not be the best government possible, but it should be clear why I favor loyalism.

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"We were meant to live for so much more. Have we lost ourselves?" - Switchfoot
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