Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, November 6 2007 19:23
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People just aren't willing to do what it takes these days. It's what makes you all so weak. You talk all high and mighty of freedom and rights but when the time comes to walk the walk, you run back to the Shapers and their laws. Disappointing. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
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written Wednesday, November 7 2007 04:48
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Tullegoar:Dont insult me by saying I prefer shapers. p.s Shapers are oppresive yerks!!! -------------------- You must show me respect becouse...never mind why but do respect me! All hail me, your...something. Don't contradict me or I'l...GUARDS! Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
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written Wednesday, November 7 2007 11:19
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Arrg, people refer to the rebellion as the drakons lead, but IF the unbound didn't need to be created and if the drakons didn't lead the rebellion it would be alot better, i bet that the average human/servile in the rebellion doesn't like the unbound project and the drakons, honestly, do you think that if you met a giant, walking, fire-breathing, cruel, greedy lizard i don't think they would be on your friends list -------------------- Life's important Questions: What is the best Artifact Gloves of Savagery Is there a more uber sword that the Puresteel Soulblade: No Vie va la Travokites Vie va la Kyryk Vie va la Serviles Vie va la Dryaks Your incompidence is your own fault Before you complain, ask yourself, does anyone care? The answer, of course is No. Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
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written Wednesday, November 7 2007 11:33
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Without dracons rebellion is doomed. -------------------- You must show me respect becouse...never mind why but do respect me! All hail me, your...something. Don't contradict me or I'l...GUARDS! Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Wednesday, November 7 2007 12:23
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Exactly. The Human, Servile, and even the Drayk portions of the Rebellion are woefully under-equipped to face the Shapers. Southforge fell even with almost all of the Shaper forces concentrated on the Drakons to the north. While Litalia's city-camp isn't too bad off, they would pose little threat to Shapers unburdened by threat of the Drakons. To E.T.- Creation rights and removal of restrictions of Shaping are just plain not worth it. The deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent humans and creations, and the unleashing of a nigh-unstoppable menace on half of the world, just so that the few survivors might - might - eke out a bloody existence among the shattered ruins and acidic soil for centuries, is not worth it. Period. If the Rebels were less. . . extremist, then there would be no question about siding with them. Half of the Shaper soldiers only side with them because of the devastation wreaked by the Rebels. [ Wednesday, November 07, 2007 12:32: Message edited by: Thoughts in Chaos ] -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Wednesday, November 7 2007 17:27
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quote:Just a historical correction here, not actually comenting one way or another, but the amount of people who died due to Stalin was many times greater than that of Hitler. Fun AP Euro fact from my teacher a couple years ago. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "When one fights a monster, one must take care not to become a monster oneself." -Friedich Nietzche "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5545
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written Thursday, November 8 2007 05:04
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quote:Ha! Godwin's law! -------------------- Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est. Posts: 344 | Registered: Friday, February 25 2005 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Thursday, November 8 2007 13:06
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Godwin's Law does not apply to the Geneforge games, which involves genocidal masters, and an enslaved race. Seriously. -------------------- Here will be the pet choices: Potatoe Salmon, Pet Rock, or Sabre-toothed Lime? Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, November 8 2007 13:15
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Meta-Godwin's Law, however, is another story. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5545
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written Thursday, November 8 2007 17:29
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Godwin's law applies everywhere, because it does not say that such comparisons are always bad. In this case, I'd say it's moderately valid. It simply states that such comparisons are bound to occur. I'm sorry I mentioned it. It's simply the first time I'd seen it in action, and I got a little excited. It won't happen again. -------------------- Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est. Posts: 344 | Registered: Friday, February 25 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 9887
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written Thursday, November 8 2007 18:36
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No worries, it was relatively on topic compared to what has been said on other threads. But seriously, everyone think about what this war was originally started because. Intelligent creations wanted freedom, shaper lack of action, and more accessability to the power to shape. We have discussed creation freedom. The shapers saw them as a danger (excluding serviles), mostly because if they got the chance the drayks, drakons, and eyebeasts would have tried to make humans slaves to them, even before the shapers started killing them. The creations are smart enough to realize they don't want to die and fight back. Since it's already in their nature to seek power they now have a reason to justify if they overthrew the Shapers. Unfortuanately they would not be able to overcome what was shaped into them, and just replace the shapers. The shaper inaction was, not doubt, drawn from a strong logical reason. If they helped a village that was starving because of cold by making a grain that could survive cold then that grain would eventually get out of hand and start growing everywhere it could, wiping out other plant life. If they made a creation that ate the grain, then that creation would probably start to eat all the local vegetation, preventing the regrowth of the original plants, stripping the area of all plant life. Just introducing one species can throw off an ecosystem in inumerable and unpredictable ways. In the golden age of the shapers they probably took all that into account and decided if it was worth it. Later though they probably didn't mess with it due to laziness. The more accessibility to shaping is probably the most dangerous thing that can happen to the world. Right now with more shaping the bad effects have not emerged because everyone has someone to target their shaping at. However if it were not war time, accessable shaping would be disasterous. If one farmer that could shape lost his crops to cold then the situation above could become a very much worse reality. Plus there will always be someone like Monarch that tries to use shaping to his advantage and starts shaping uncontrollable creations, maybe even as strong as the Unbound. But the worst thing that could happen would probably be the creation of a virus. That would be unstoppable and undetectable, as well as incredibly lethal. The only way to avoid all of those from happening is to either limit shaping incredibley, or to get rid shaping completely. -------------------- The best way to spell Geneforge: "Genefroge" I make guacamole at work Posts: 454 | Registered: Monday, August 20 2007 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 10578
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written Thursday, November 8 2007 18:45
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quote:The second would never work, therefore loyalism is the inevitable answer. It always is. ;) -------------------- "We were meant to live for so much more. Have we lost ourselves?" - Switchfoot ---- My poetry Posts: 432 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2007 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, November 8 2007 19:32
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Originally by the Ratt: quote:I disagree about the drayks. They are temperamental, greedy, and fairly powerful, but I cannot recall any examples at the moment of drayks going around trying to dominate or enslave humans. (And while there may be some, there are plenty of human and servile bandits as well.) quote:Famines aren't the only problem, though, otherwise Blackrabbit wouldn't have been able to get himself hired as a mercenary. Plus, the Shapers have no problems altering ecosystems. It was implied that Sucia Island is mostly a Shaper-created environment. Drypeak was a failed attempt to create a new ecosystem. And in a short-term famine, it makes more sense just to send food. (Perhaps it is a bit unreasonable to expect the Shapers to be able to create better seeds or have food to spare, but the Shapers have done their best to set themselves up as perfect and all-powerful.) Dikiyoba. -------------------- Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, November 8 2007 20:33
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quote:That's funny, you've never seen me argue with Stareye before? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, November 8 2007 21:35
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Frankly, the fact that we almost made it to page three without invoking Godwin's Law in a debate about Geneforge ideologies is nothing sort of a miracle. :P Dikiyoba. [ Thursday, November 08, 2007 21:41: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] -------------------- Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, November 8 2007 23:53
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I think a lot of analogies between Geneforge and real world politics are fundamentally flawed. Perhaps the most basic feature of real world politics is that almost all humans simply are roughly equal, in physical capability. So power is about persuading large numbers of other humans to follow you. Even technology hasn't changed this fundamentally: no nation yet has ever fielded an army that could defeat its entire civilian population, if they behaved as a suicidally determined mob. So even regimes based on force are really based on intimidating most people, while retaining the loyalty of the troops. In the Geneforge world this is not so. Talented individuals can personally acquire magical power with no apparent limit, or control mindless armies of monsters, also with no apparent limit. (Particular individuals may have limits, but there is no known limit to what the next mad Shaper might be able to do.) So while the goals of Geneforge characters may be compared to the goals of real world figures, the means available to the former are radically different. And in fact the distinction between ends and means is not really sharp, because means shape ends. Politics is the art of the possible, and the possible of Geneforge is very different. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5545
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written Friday, November 9 2007 10:01
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quote:I was not aware of Godwin's Law at the time. Now I am. That is really all that there remains to say on the subject. [ Friday, November 09, 2007 10:02: Message edited by: Actaeon ] -------------------- Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est. Posts: 344 | Registered: Friday, February 25 2005 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, November 9 2007 12:02
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First, I agree with SoT's last post: Riots, rebellions, revolutions, and resulting civil wars are very nasty even in the real world. (Even the relatively gentle American Civil War included episodes like Sherman's march that destroyed everything in its path.) Once you throw weapons of mass destruction into the mix, you get the total devastation described in the Geneforge series. With that said, Geneforge Rebels seem to be equivalent to the most extreme elements of RL society: indiscriminate attacks against univolved civillians "just to steer things up" wouldn't be accepted by most of the RL revolutionaries. (Here I am referring to Rebel practice of filling areas with uncontrolled rogues that drive farmers away from their fields, killing anybody who doesn't run away fast enough.) Another thing in Shaper's favor that everybody is forgetting is that they are neither a race nor a cast. From what I've seen in the games, Shaper society is a form of meritocracy, with Shaper schools accepting regular human children from any social class, and positions of power being earned rather than inherited. This makes Shaper society almost as liberal as ancient Greek Democracies, where only male citizens could vote and slaves were treated no better than Geneforge serviles. While citizens of shaper lands have no right to vote, they seem to have at least as much opportunity for upward mobility as citizends of modern USA. As for the Trakovites, I have only two words: "Sulica Island". The Shapers themselves tried to suppress "dangerous knowledge" and you can see the mess that resulted. I can see the plot of Geneforge 10 as: "In a society where all shaping is punishable by death, a young student stumbles upon ancient texts that contain forgotten secrets. But he is not alone in his discovery. Unimagined horrors are attacking remote villages, and this discovery might yeild a clue to their nature..." (Some unscrupulous people discover well-hidden books on shaping and proceed to take over the world, because everybody else is too weak to oppose them.) -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Friday, November 9 2007 12:25
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Exactly. It's like the atomic bomb. There will always be someone who discovers or saves the secret of the atomic bomb, no matter how many times it's abolished. And that one nation, group, or even single person will always be better prepared for war than those who didn't keep their bombs. And everyone knows this, so nobody will ever destroy their atomic bombs. The same is true of Shaping. If the Shaper Empire abolished Shaping, all the Shapers would band together and Shape their way back into control. Shaping should be used less in warfare, but it's out now, and there's no way it's going to be put away. Also, like nuclear power goes hand-in-hand with the atom bomb, Shaping goes hand-in-hand with Shaping in warfare. Nalyd would personally rather have Shaping be used in warfare and elsewhere, than have no Shaping at all. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Friday, November 9 2007 12:28
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The Rebels are not alone in loosing rogues upon the population. The Shapers were the ones who loosed all of the rogues in the Forsaken Lands, along with areas of Burwood. More imporatantly, the Shapers were the ones who sent the clawbugs into the Dillame fields, driving away the farmers and nearly killing them. Undoubtedly some did not run fast enough. Your second point is debatable. We haven't heard much about a Shaper's background before the school, so I'm going to say that this really can't be proven. Although, based on the actions of the Shapers (taxes, mostly), and the general eliteness of the Shapers, I'd say it's more of a plutocratic method of selection, allowing you to rise on your own merits once you're in the ranks. Your third and final point is unlikely, to say the least. The Shapers didn't keep many books on Shaping, as it is said in basically every game. It's mostly just coded notes and word of mouth. Which makes it more likely the Trakovites will succeed, although that is still a dauntingly collosal task. In the unlikely event that the Trakovites actually do destroy all of the canisters and Shapers/lifecraters, it is extremely unlikely that books and notes would be spared the torch. -------------------- Here will be the pet choices: Potatoe Salmon, Pet Rock, or Sabre-toothed Lime? Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, November 9 2007 12:50
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quote:Is this from Geneforge 4? I was referring to Geneforge 3. (I haven't finished #4 yet.) Either way, this makes Rebels no better than shapers. And probably worse, because rebels started this practice first. quote:My conclusion was derived from NPC interactions in Geneforge 3. I don't remember the exact text, but there was something about failing student sent back to her human village, and other indications that shaper apprentices are children of regular humans, rather than Shapers. As for taxes and so on, there are plenty of people in USA who complain just as much about evil Federal Government taking too much taxes and ignoring their needs. (People always complain about taxes, no matter where they live.) quote:Even if Trakovites start burning at the stake anybody suspected of harboring forbidden knowledge, they will be no more successful than Spanish Inquisition was at eradicating "heretics". Knowledge and ideas have proven pretty hard to destroy. And that's even without the added insentive of huge power that comes with shaping. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Friday, November 9 2007 20:33
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quote:None of those were actual rogues. The ones in the Forsaken Lands were patrolling autonomously, the Dillame fields ones were following orders (wander Dillame fields and kill anyone unauthorized to be there), and the ones in Burwood were under the direct control of Shaper infiltraitors. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • El Presidente • Where the Rivers Meet • A Visit to the Madhouse Avatar • Aphobia • IMAGINE THIS SCENARIO Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, November 11 2007 00:25
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The atomic bomb analogy is an interesting one. The mere knowledge that it can be done, in practice as well as in theory, is the biggest advantage subsequent bomb-builders have over the Manhattan Project. And the basic theory is well known. But it's still a heck of a job to get enough nearly pure U-235, when natural uranium is mostly U-238. It requires, in fact, a small industry to separate enough of the isotopes for a bomb. That's why a lot of the efforts at preventing nuclear proliferation focus on catching people who are building lots of centrifuges. Suppressing rogue shaping, before it gets to shaping rogues, is probably a similar task. Rare ingredients and huge power sources seem to be needed by all shaping labs. There must be a way of policing this kind of construction. [ Sunday, November 11, 2007 00:27: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, November 11 2007 00:27
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quote: -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, November 11 2007 08:44
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Originally by Nioca: quote:...which happens to include a bunch of Dillame farmers trying to work their fields. Oops. I think one of the biggest problems the Shapers have is that they loudly proclaim themselves to be perfect and in control. This is the image they cultivate among ordinary humans. At the beginning of G2, Shanti says, "But we Shapers are respected most of all because we look, to outsiders, flawless. Perfect. We may argue internally, but to the outside world, we never look weak." But having such high expectations makes every mistake or undesirable outcome worse than it would be if people had a realistic view of their power. As an example, it's bad when rebel creations kill or displace civilians. But it's even worse when Shaper creations kill or displace people, because the Shapers have built themselves up to be absolute in creation control. So even if Shaper creations kill relatively few innocent people, the survivors will remember and be bitter about it, because they were expecting no deaths. (The same thing applies to the rebel side too. It's bad when the Shapers mistreat serviles or use cruel methods to research new creations. It's even worse when the drakons to it, because they essentially promised that they were overthrowing Shaper methods as well as the Shapers themselves.) Dikiyoba. -------------------- Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |