Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, December 6 2007 20:28
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Originally by Nioca: quote:I think not, because you're missing the entire point of my argument. quote:The Shapers are commiting the exact same destruction the Rebels are, regardless of their "justification". I could come up with plenty of reasons the Rebels are justified in the amount of destruction they cause. But you probably wouldn't agree with any of those reasons. Similarly, I don't agree with any of your justifications for Shaper behavior either. Either it's an atrocity for either side or it's a necessary fact of war for either side, but it is not okay for one side to do it and wrong for the other side. All that does is give both sides a free pass to continue doing whatever they've been doing. Small wonder the war is still raging if both sides think the other side's actions are all despicable but their side is totally justified! quote:This may be one of the potential "agree to disagree" points as well, then. I don't draw near the distinction between drakons and the other rebels you do. I sort by ideology, not race. quote:Huh. I guess so. Dikiyoba. Edit: Fixed quote. [ Thursday, December 06, 2007 20:30: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] -------------------- Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, December 6 2007 21:10
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quote:I didn't say that, I will never claim that, and I have never once believed that. There's no justification good enough for almost everything that's happened during this war. A lot of the Shapers' past and present behavior, along with a lot of the Rebels', are inexcusable. quote:I'm sorting by faction. The Drakon rebellion is a separate faction from the Human and Creation rebellion. The human/creation rebellion once based in Southforge is fighting for what the rebellion originally stood for: Freedom for creations and independence from Shaper tyranny. The Drakon rebellion, however, is fighting for vengeance and power. Freedom will be a side-effect, and if the current pattern holds, a short-lived one that'll vanish when the Drakons replace the Shapers as even nastier tyrants. And the Shapers fight to maintain order and control. So between the Shapers, the human/creation rebellion, or the Drakon rebellion, I'd choose door number 2. Unfortunately, like the Awakened, this option is doomed, so it boils down to Shapers vs. Drakons. And I side with the Shapers. I'm not saying that the Drakons are hopeless, but if they don't turn their behavior around fast, Drakon tyranny will become inevitable. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • El Presidente • Where the Rivers Meet • A Visit to the Madhouse Avatar • Aphobia • IMAGINE THIS SCENARIO Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, December 6 2007 21:50
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Originally by Nioca: quote:And I just see it as Rebel and Shaper. The drakons cannot survive without the rest of the rebellion and vice versa. They may be fracturing, but they are still one. I also see the Shapers intent to "maintain order and control" by killing anything they can't control. (Even the relatively moderate Alwan says "Of course, he is a drayk, so he is marked for death no matter what he believes. Drayks are Barred. He must die.") If I were a servile, drayk, or drakon, I'd side with the Rebellion just because there is no other choice. If the Shapers just dropped that one policy, I'd probably side with the Shapers. But as it is, the Rebels at least offer hope for a new direction (and survival for non-humans). The Shapers just offer more of the same, which seems to have worked in the past but has now failed miserably in the past few decades (or however long the series has been going on). So, I side with the rebels. But you are right; the drakons are corrupt. So, I usually choose the Trakovite ending. Not because Shaping is bad, but because if neither side can win through brute force then maybe, just maybe, both sides will have to rethink their positions. The Shapers are rethinking some of their laws (which is why they try to recruit your PC) in order to win victory and the drakons just need to find themselves in a position where they realize why they still work with the rest of the rebellion. The Trakovite ending offers a tiny chance one of the sides will clean up their act, whereas the Shaper ending offers none (the few Rebels on Ashen Isles aside, and even that looks temporary) and the Rebel ending doesn't offer anything better either. Dikiyoba. -------------------- Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Friday, December 7 2007 23:36
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I don't wan to take up a whole page with quotes so I'm going to condence this Dikiyoba- So you like the ending in which the maximum amount of death and destruction is dealt? Everyone- Where are people getting the idea that most Shaper research is about war, what I have seen in contrary to that (at least in most recent "peacetime". Rebel sympathizers- I understand that there is diversity in Drakon thought, but seriously, who is going to argue that they are mostly, with very, very few exceptions, greedy and powerhungary with little regard to any consequenses other than to themselves (even that doesn't always stop them!). There is a big difference between "steriotyping" a Drakon and steriotyping a human. Also, LT, serviles were hardwired to not be able to do magic, and it has worked other than serviles flailing themselves to madness or altering their genes (also leads to madness) so I don't see your poin. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "When one fights a monster, one must take care not to become a monster oneself." -Friedich Nietzche "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, December 8 2007 07:44
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Originally by Retlaw May: quote:All endings result in a massive amount of death and destruction. Go for the Rebel ending and the Unbound are released (and the Shapers respond in kind), which basically results in the destruction of Western Terrestia. (I think the ending even says something about the war just beginning.) Go for the Shaper ending and a lot of death and destruction occurs as the Shapers reclaim the rest of Eastern Terrestia. Ghaldring alone kills dozens of Shapers. Any independent servile or drayk the Shapers get their hands on dies. Before the war, the Shapers stayed in power by killing anyone who disobeyed them or they couldn't control, and that's only going to get worse after they put down the rebellion. With the attitudes each side has currently, things are going to be very ugly and lots of people are going to die if one of them outright wins, so why not go for the Trakovite ending? Dikiyoba. -------------------- Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Saturday, December 8 2007 10:15
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Well for one thing, the least amount of innocents (or at least people not in the war) are killed. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "When one fights a monster, one must take care not to become a monster oneself." -Friedich Nietzche "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
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written Saturday, December 8 2007 11:16
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quote:Because...let me think:In best case you get locked up for half of your life and other half you are exiled, in worst case you get executed. Im not selfish but I prefer to be alive, rich, and powerfull instead of dead. -------------------- You must show me respect becouse...never mind why but do respect me! All hail me, your...something. Don't contradict me or I'l...GUARDS! Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00 |
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Councilor
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written Saturday, December 8 2007 11:35
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Originally by Retlaw May: quote:The Shaper ending results in the death of the fewest innocents, I assume? Maybe, but intent matters too. There are plenty of Rebels who don't fight: human, servile, drayk, and even drakon a the Shapers have made their intent to kill all sentient non-human species quite clear. For all their other faults, at least the drakons don't have wiping out all humans as a goal. So while the Unbound cause tremendous casualties, at least the rebellion doesn't have the casualties as a goal and isn't guaranteed to keep causing such massive casualties in the future. The casualties that the Shapers cause are intended and would occur again if another rebellion were to occur. Originally by LakiRa@: quote:Big deal. Dikiyoba will still be back as a wobbly, weak-kneed beginner in G5. :P -------------------- Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 10430
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written Saturday, December 8 2007 17:08
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Retlew: quote:And you like the ending where systematic genocide occurs? quote:Good. Since we both agree that there is diversity in Drakon thought, and that they ARE capable of both tolerance and rational thought, isn't it an act of injustice to target them all for extermination? Don't you agree that if the Shapers stopped their genocidal campaign, the Drakons might become less extreme, and a more tolerant and rational ideologue would prevail might prevail amongst them? quote:I'm not denying that the Drakons are capable of being both greedy and power hungry, but they aren't any greedier or power hungry than humans, IMHO. Humans in this game have been seen to risk death to gain Shaping powers (Danette and her troupe, the rebel humans, Barzhal and his cohort, and Monarch), and show an enormous amount of greed (witness the merchant near the Cairn Gates who fleeces refugees). And even if Drakons have a greater tendency to be greedy and power hungry, that still isn't an excuse to target the race for extermination. They aren't mindless monsters. They are just like sapient human beings. They have flaws, strengths and fears. There is a diversity of thought and opinion amongst their ranks. Some are temperamental and quick to anger, while others are susceptible to reason. When you strip away the superficialities, you realize that Drakons are simply just another band of humans, with a different physical form. And there is no way we would tolerate systematic genocide against humans. Is there? quote:No, there isn't. It ignores the context of the scenario, and it's just lazy. quote:Serviles were hardwired to not be able to do magic, but they can. And not all of the serviles who attempt to 'purify' themselves end up mad, although admittedly the probability of doing so is high! -------------------- "I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question: Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence? No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed. No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council. No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one. I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension." Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Saturday, December 8 2007 22:04
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LT do you have any proof for your whole thing of Drakons are as diverse as humans in being greedy and power-hungry and all that? Because I don't see enough to give any redemption to Drakons. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "When one fights a monster, one must take care not to become a monster oneself." -Friedich Nietzche "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 10430
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written Sunday, December 9 2007 15:22
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Retlew: quote:There is a huge diversity of opinion amongst the Drakons, even in Geneforge 4. I'm not going to trawl through the scripts, simply because I don't have the patience. To make my point regarding Drakons vs. humans, I'll just point to several general facts that I'm sure you can't dispute. The bulk of the Drakon resistance is interested in Shaping and reshaping itself, purely to carry out the war against the Shapers. They need to empower themselves in order to survive. Now, for comparison, let's look at the humans. You have: - The Shapers, who obtain power the traditional way, in order to rule over non-Shapers and enforce their dictates. - The non-Shaper rebels, many of whom side with the Rebellion so that they can Reshape themselves and gain illicit powers. - The Monarchs of the game, who are aligned with no-one except themselves, and seek to experiment with forbidden Shaping in order to become gods. Note that Monarch isn't exactly unique. For example: Barzhal and his cohort, Danette and her cohort, Phariton, Goetsche, Trajkov and his minions. I guess Danette isn't exactly 'unaligned', but she was independent from the Shapers for a period on Sucia, when she went behind their backs and created the Geneforge/canisters. IMHO, the bulk of the humans in Geneforge have demonstrated themselves greedy for power, and it is usually the humans who are willing to go insane to obtain that power. The difference is that I don't believe the humans have a sound reason (they merely want power for powers sake, or to stand over others), whereas the Drakons state that they need more power to survive. In fact, ever since GF2, the Drayks/Drakons have been repeating like a 'mantra' "We must shape and reshape, to become strong enough to take the battle to the Shapers". And to be honest, I do believe that the Drakons are sincere when they say this. The fact that as a society, they are overshadowing non-Drakonian races as they continue to empower themselves, is an unpleasant side effect. But it's not as if the Drakons don't attempt to share power with non-Drakons (eg. the human Geneforges, the Shaping of the serviles and humans, the canisters) So in conclusion, I'm going to say as far as generalisations go, the humans are at least as power-hungry as the Drakons. -------------------- "I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question: Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence? No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed. No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council. No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one. I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension." Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Sunday, December 9 2007 20:44
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You are missing the point. You can point out a few cases in which humans are as gready as the average Drakon. And I don't buy that load of bull that Drakons are only reshaping themselves only because they need to fight the Shapers, and I doubt that most will dispute that too. Canisters make humans have the attitude of Drakons (which I may point out is extremely alarming to the human population) and they would definatly not stop if the war was over, so neither would Drakons reshaping themselves in order to gain power. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "When one fights a monster, one must take care not to become a monster oneself." -Friedich Nietzche "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Sunday, December 9 2007 22:50
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I have seen no indication that the drakons who rule the rebellion (to what degree can be debated) are morally any better then the shapers. If they win the will be just as cruel as the shapers. They have committed every atroticy the shapers have: crushing people/things that don't follow their will/rules, arrogant to those under them (and often hated), same barbirc methods of treating and exmperimenting with no seinting creatures. They have with out exeception committed every wrong doing the shapers have. Even if their is one wrong doing the shapers have done I'm sure time will surely change that. However the shapers have two saving graces that the drakons don't: 1 Drakons gentic self shaping causes maddness. It has been made evedent in the unbound, the drakon's tendencies, canisters, and geneforges that maddness is an unavoidable side effect of their pursit for power. The only way for them to survive is to conintue research that will make them unstable and no one with that out amount of power should be unstable. Let me put it this way, Drakon techinques increase the likely hood of becomeing menstable by several hundredfold (if not thousand), where as traditional shaping techinques the chances are nill. 2 The shapers have experince. Some of the shaper laws are meant to keep them from being challenged. They also make a good point about the dangers of letting every bum off the street shape. The shapers also have some pratical rules like not making new stronger crops becuase they will exhaust the soil and poteinally destroy the enviorment. Are the drakons likely to adobt the shapers more pratical rules? I doubt it. The Drakons who have proven themselves just as cruel as shapers will have to make all of the mistakes the shapers have just when the shapers where starting to learn from them. I don't support the trakvoite ending for three reasons. One is that you can't eradicate shaping nor can you erdicate shaping research. The fact that the rouge shapeing techinques have surived despite the shapers best efforts is testiment to that. Even if the whole of soceity was against shaping the shapers and rebel lifecrafters would go into a quite life until horrors of shaping where forgotten and bring back shapeing a new. Only this time no one would no how to deal with it. Two is that society will find a way to destroy it self. With them it is shaping, with us it is nukes. Even if you could somehow manage to find some method of stoping shapeing, how long would it be before it was replaced by some magic or technolgy equally destructive? Three is shaping is useful. To compeletly remove shaping from soceity would be the same as banning electricity. Even if you did it over time, it would be an indication of soceitys slow driffting into poverty if nothing else. Their society has depended on shapeing for untold millieums, and yet you want to remove it compeletly with in a few decades? -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7228
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written Monday, December 10 2007 19:39
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Personally, I prefer the Neutral path, where I get to kill both the Shaper and Rebel heroes, and their leaders, Michael and Asura, pave the way for the reincarnation of the goddess, and still get the girl. edit: wait what do you mean this isn't shin megami tensei [ Monday, December 10, 2007 19:39: Message edited by: Cronocke ] -------------------- We all have our crushes. We all have our unrequited loves. They don't make you special. They only make you more ordinary. Posts: 11 | Registered: Friday, June 16 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
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written Tuesday, December 11 2007 14:57
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quote:Ummm.....What? This is Geneforge and i dont remember a Michael or Asura. :confused: -------------------- Life's important Questions: What is the best Artifact Gloves of Savagery Is there a more uber sword that the Puresteel Soulblade: No Vie va la Travokites Vie va la Kyryk Vie va la Serviles Vie va la Drayks Your incompidence is your own fault Before you complain, ask yourself, does anyone care? The answer, of course is No. My life for Auir! Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, December 11 2007 19:16
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It was a joke and reference to another game, if you couldn't tell by the last line... -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "When one fights a monster, one must take care not to become a monster oneself." -Friedich Nietzche "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
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written Wednesday, December 12 2007 03:17
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quote:And the comparison sort of fits. Both the Chaos and Rebel factions claim to want freedom from the oppressive rule of their opponents, but on the other hand, the unrestrained freedom they propose can only end in at least as much suffering, and they're not scrupulous about using very dark methods and/or people/creatures to get their ways. Likewise, both Law and Shaper factions want to suppress their adversaries, and restore stability to the world, but they care very little for everyone who doesn't fit into their very heavily structured and segmented worldview, even going so far as to enslave or eliminate them. -------------------- We all have our crushes. We all have our unrequited loves. They don't make you special. They only make you more ordinary. Posts: 11 | Registered: Friday, June 16 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 12516
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written Wednesday, December 12 2007 16:51
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There are, like, no Republicans here. I'm one of the few I guess. [ Wednesday, December 12, 2007 16:52: Message edited by: Janitorial Closet ] -------------------- Spiderweb Software Games I have- BoA Spiderweb Software Game I'm currently playing- G3/4 Demos Current non Spidweb game I'm currently playing- Dragon Quest Monsters Because you care about this. XD Posts: 31 | Registered: Wednesday, December 12 2007 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
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written Tuesday, December 18 2007 16:16
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Originally wrote by Safty quote:Good point about the shapers and drakons but, umm, do you see the drakons going on a organized genocidal crusade on humans because they have the potential to be dangerous? As on the Travokite matter, i agree with you, the Travokites have the right idea, but haven't thought it out. -------------------- Is there a more uber sword that the Puresteel Soulblade: No Vie va la Travokites Vie va la Kyryk Vie va la Serviles Vie va la Drayks Your incompidence is your own fault Before you complain, ask yourself, does anyone care? The answer, of course is No. My life for Auir! Do you hate it when your password is changed by your brother? Touch of Bambi hits the spot, what what? Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 12599
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written Friday, December 21 2007 12:21
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quote:I voted democrat-shaper and I'll explain why. First, I'm member of a center wing political party in my country (France), so it's not difficult for me to choose the dems. To my standards, dems are center-right where reps are far right (there is no real left-wing in the USA... you're lucky !). So obviously, dems are closer to me. In the way they see economy (targeting efficiency first, but with sometime making compromise to help lower and lower-med class at the cost of a small to medium global decrease in economy efficiency), and in the way they see society (I'm sort of ultra-libertarian on those topic, gay marriage and such). Now, shapers or rebels ? That choice is a though one. Shapers are sort of extrem right, and rebels extrem left. And the whole meaning of my political involvement is to fight extremism, no matter from which side. (extrem nationalists are, imo, as dangerous as communists. If either of these ideology prevail, bye bye freedom, hello poverty. I know there is a lot of french communists on the web so please don't flame me if you are. I only express my personal opinion because it's topic, and I respect yours, and won't debate on this thread). So, which one is the lesser evil ? Being neither center left nor center right but pure center wing, it is a very very tough decision to make. But at the end, I chose extrem right over communism, because I think it's easier to move from an extrem right fascist state to a balanced peaceful yet libertarian state, than from a communist state, which would be too chaotic and too messy to move it to something else, civilisation would have to be rebuilt from scratch. Now that I've explicited my choice, do you still think I'm a "miserable hypocrit" as you said ? Or that I've been brainwashed by "liberal propaganda" (which doesn't make any sense to me in the context since "liberals" means reps-like far right parties in France). Posts: 2 | Registered: Sunday, December 16 2007 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, December 21 2007 12:34
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A very nice explanation. Welcome to the boards. -------------------- Listen carefully because some of your options may have changed. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Friday, December 21 2007 13:21
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quote:Good point about the shapers and drakons but, umm, do you see the drakons going on a organized genocidal crusade on humans because they have the potential to be dangerous? As on the Travokite matter, i agree with you, the Travokites have the right idea, but haven't thought it out.[/QB][/QUOTE] In the near future?No. If their power should become unchecked? Yes but for what excuse the give I'm not to sure. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Friday, December 21 2007 13:33
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quote:Yes. Geneforge 3 & 4 show quite clearly the Drakons are prepared to go to any length to kill the Shapers. For example killing all the students in the greenwood academy, because they might be dangerous in the future. And of course, unleashing the Unbound. -------------------- Espresso - as close as you're going to get to an intravenous caffeine shot. Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 9688
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written Friday, December 21 2007 13:41
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I really do not believe that any political things such as democrats have any correlation to Geneforge, why? Our politicians are for governing our society and nation and for making decisions. Shapers are for continuing their rule and research and wiping out the rogues who challenge their authority Rebels are for gaining their freedom at any cost How are those related? I mean come on guys... Posts: 28 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 9688
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written Friday, December 21 2007 14:21
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quote:Have you forgotten Ghaldring? He has considered all the moral possibilities, and he isn't an evil cruel greedy lizard, as in all cases he is shown to be wise. He is still wrong however, Khryk had the EXACT idea of how it should go about, instead of wiping each other out, reach a stalemate. In all cases the Shaper's treat HUMANS well that are more useful to them then lowly peasants that are poor, I see a recurring theme, the more powerful people tend to mistreat those weaker then them, I have not seen many exceptions, the shapers seem good, but in all cases to rise up and overthrow them for anarchy would probably be better as hopefully indivisuals liek Ghaldring and Khyrk or some other person would eventually lead to an overall better society The rebels use of the Unbound is wrong, completely wrong, survival is good, but to kill EVERYONE except for those poor sods who get to eke out an existance in an apocalyptic world with Unbound and rogues wandering around? That is evil, it is not right And it depends on the view points of many, the drakons threaten the shapers yes, but how much better would the rebels have done with overall less need for something like the Unbound if the Drakons had allowed the rebels to shape more and had they fought along with the humans and serviles You will note that drayks won't fight with the humans and serviles quite as often, its mostly humans and serviles paying the butcher bill in fighting and death, do you see many drayks dying along with them? No I think if there were less idiots like Sallasar and more like Ghaldring and they helped more the war would have gone more favorably and I would mosr definately side with rebels, and even then since the rebels are making the Unbound side with them anyway, better than being annhilated. Rebels are better than Shapers overall, Litalia stopped being quite so extreme in her ways of fighting in G4 but even then as the saying goes "All is fair in love and war." In our American Civil war they did not follow the rules of war, they did not sit there and say "Okay children we are going to play nice" They did everything they could to hurt the enemy, they used every nasty trick in the book, using scorched earth, driving away game, generally doing whatever it took to drive the confeds into submission. In all cases, being extreme is not nice, but in the face of pushing everything to a better world with freedom for all creations, yes just not to the point of the Unbound. Doomsday things are never acceptable to win a war. The Trakovites are idiots, get rid of the use of Shaping in war sounds better, but abolishing it? Stupidity, Shaping can be used for enourmous good if you did a few things... -No self shaping -No shaping in war -Absolutely no creating new species without great deliberation -No shaping of intelligent creations without thought on the overall impact, same with above -Used shaping to improve technology for the better(Yes there are machines, using a hybrid of shaping and magic and mechanical machinery) The Awakened might be dead, but they had something in their philosophy that impressed me the want of equality, if there was ever to be a government that would work that would have to exist between serviles/drayks/humans/drakons And instead of a Shaper Council, let it be a Council of the best of the races in the council to lead, ect ect. I am out of thoughts and need to think some more, lots of crap I just unloaded. Posts: 28 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00 |