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Originally written by Jewel:

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Originally written by Nioca:

EZboard decided to spontaneously change the Lyceum's URL. It can be found here.

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No, no, no, say it isn't so. Is this a permanent change? Like it's not going back any time soon or ever?

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Originally written by Iffy:

Also, for some reason I got "canned" after I was unbanned, but Nija (I know you don't like to be called that, but it is the most recognizable name) didn't. Why is that? He is more annoying than me...

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Originally written by Iffy:

I will kill Alorael, hide his body, disguise myself as him, get an empty skribbane bottle, claim I need more from the moderator forum and that some glitch removed my modship, and look at all the threads in the moderator forum

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Originally written by shadow9d9:

Am I right that you have unlimited arrows now?

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Am I right that you could train anywhere in town now?

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Am I right that you only heal/regain spell points when you step into town or use potions/spells?

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Is there a delay/wait button in combat or has it been removed?

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Originally written by Zeviz:

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Originally written by LakiRa@:

And what is mehanical pencil?

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Nicothodes' gimmick. (She likes to talk about stubbing people with mechanical pencils.)

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Nioca:

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Note the 'we do not wish to share influence' line.

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Red herring. We were discussing whether the Drakons are greedy for wealth, and I provided the quote from Salassar to demonstrate that wealth isn't their highest priority, even with one of the most temperamental Drakons.

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And said greed isn't just limited to wealth either.

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Bait and switch. Your original statement regarding Drakon greed was: "They have an inherent greed that stems from their Drayk beginnings." This implies that the greed you were referring to is the material greed sometimes observed in Drayks, for items such gold and trinkets (ergo. 'Hoards').

Now that I've demonstrated such a claim to be bunk , you're broadening the definition of greed.

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Hardly. Unless, of course, annihilating a continent is considered saintly.

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Which is not comparable with Shaper behaviour, given that the Drakons are fighting a war for survival. But it is interesting to note that the Rebel ending states that the Shapers engage in the same tactics the Drakons use, once they are on the back foot.

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I don't recall anything done by the Shapers coming even close to that.

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Even when the Shapers aren't facing annihilation, they raze towns and cities merely for disobedience, perform cruel experiments on creations without a valid excuse, and starve and torture Rebels to death.

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And it actually proves that the Drakons are going for genocide.

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Genocide is the deliberate, targeted and systematic extermination of an ethnicity or religion. What race/religious group are the Drakons targeting for extermination?

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The latter two sum it up. Ghaldring is probably the best example available of a 'model drakon' if you will, but his fight with Salassar and his comments after Salassar's death show that he's the exception, not the rule.

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Conjecture. I'd argue (and far more effectively) that the majority of Drakons are in agreement with Ghaldring's ideology, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to successfully dispose of Salassar.

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You just answered your own question. You're basing you're opinions on the Shapers, and then broadening it to include all humans, guilty or not.

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But the humans are guilty. Either they actively exploited and abused the serviles, or stood by and let it happen. There are exceptions to the rule, such as Lilata and Greta, but they are the tiny minority.

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So, instead of trying to free themselves from Shaper rule, they're giving them good reason and more credence to go after them and kill them.
Truly, they are geniuses.

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Yes, they are geniuses, considering that the Drakons, Drayks and independent serviles are marked for extermination to begin with, and engaging in violence is hardly going to change the Shapers' attitudes towards them.

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It's not their only means to survive

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Patently false. Once again:

Release Unbound = Rebellion survives, lots of non-rebels die.

Not release Unbound = Rebellion destroyed, Drakons, Drayks, independent serviles and Eyebeasts exterminated.

There is no 'third option'. This is repeated throughout the game, and reflected in the game endings.

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The Drakons proved themselves very effective in the assault on that gate in the wastes, so why not attack the Shaper forces directly?

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Been there, done that. The Drakons did engage the Shaper forces directly, and suffered horrific losses. Hence they withdrew to the North to work on their grand project. One successful guerilla strike hardly can be extrapolated to assume any success in all-out conventional warfare.

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Also note that the Shaper ending states that the Drakons were slaughtered after several months of siege at Quess-Uss. Without the Unbound, the Drakons are no match for a force superior in numbers and resources, despite having the advantage of fortifications in their own territory. And yet you postulate that somehow, the Drakons would stand a chance in hostile territory, away from their own fortifications and support systems.

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The Shapers aren't actively hunting down and slaughtering anything that strays from their rule.

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Yes they are. And they are doing far worse than that. They are actively hunting down and slaughtering entire sapient races for the mere crime of existing. What regime in real world history recently did that?

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No, because someone would still rebel against their rule.

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People usually don't rebel if they don't have a good reason. If the Shapers had been more tolerant, than this particular Rebellion would not exist.

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I'd like to end this with my perspective on what the Drakons are doing. They may claim that they're trying to free those wronged by the Shapers, but it really is more an act of revenge.

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No, releasing the Unbound is motivated by the desire to survive. Hence your lengthy quote becomes irrelevant to this discussion.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Nioca:

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By 'not yet', I mean that there's a trend developing that's clearly showing how merciless

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Drakons tend to be rather haughty and detached, but they are hardly what I would classify as merciless. They are capable of empathy.

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and greedy the Drakons are,

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The Drakons covet wealth, much like humans. However, not all Drakons place wealth as their highest priority. As Salassar says:

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We drakonsss are engaged in a great project, yes. A gloriousss work. But it isss our project. We have expended great energy and wealth from our hoardsss on it, and we do not wish to share influence.

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Apparently the vast majority of Drakons don't consider wealth as important as their fight for liberation and independence.

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As for inherent evil, well, there's a little bit of that in everyone in the Geneforge series.

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Sure. Yet any 'evil' act committed by the Drakons pales in comparison to that of the Shapers.

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You know. Giant, bi-pedal, green (sometimes red) scaly things that breathe fire and have been the topic of debate the last few post. One goes by the name of Ghaldring, ring any bells?

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Delightful. So are you saying that every Drakon would gladly do away with the human/servile half of the rebellion? Or is that the general opinion amongst the Drakon population? Or do the influential Drakons have that opinion? And if so, source?

But apparently Ghaldring doesn't hold such an opinion.

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Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers.

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Note how Ghaldring wants to shelter the less beings, instead of saying something along the lines of "Once we have released the Unbound, we no longer need you chaps around. You'll all be out on your ear!"

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Second, not all serviles share that same opinion.

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Yet it's a general trend amongst liberated serviles to despise and distrust all humans. And remember, they haven't been hunted to near extinction like the Drakons and their very recent ancestors (the drayks) have.

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Pirik is blinded by past experience,

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How on earth can you be 'blinded' by past experience? The Shapers treat the serviles atrociously, and the humans are no better. Pirik merely states the obvious.

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and judging all humans the same because of a few.

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Isn't that what you have just done with the Drakons?

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But to claim that serviles haven't been hard done by in regards to slavery and oppression by humans in general is ridiculous. Some humans are sympathetic towards creation rights, but there does certainly seem to be a trend of either exploitation or apathy in regards to the human races' views on creation rights.

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And finally, Drakons have made it clear that 'lesser species' are merely their own pawns.

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Ghaldring disagrees with you:
"Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers."

Since when has a king gone to the effort of sheltering his 'pawns' when they are no longer needed?

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Which actually brings up an interesting point: how many differences can you actually spot between Shaper serviles and Drakon serviles? Because I don't see much.

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The serviles have more autonomy in the rebellion.

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They're slaughtering anything that gets in their way, and doing more collateral damage than they are actually fighting the enemy.

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They prefer inflicting collateral damage to being genocided. The horror. Israel at your heart out.

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Essentially, this is more of the oppressed killing other oppressed and claiming it's for the greater good of their cause.

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No. It's the oppressed using the only means available to them in order to survive. Big difference.

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If there were other alternatives available which were just as (if not more) effective than the Unbound, then you might have a case. But as it stands:

"Only all Shaper life. Of course, most of the rest of it will die. But our only other choice is losing this war. I suppose, from some perspectives, what we are doing is morally questionable. But it is the only choice."

Hmm, Ghaldring seems pretty rational, given how Drakons are supposedly power hungry, greedy nutcases.

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And, excuse me if I'm wrong, I don't see the Shapers actively seeking out bloodshed.

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So marking entire sapient species for death isn't 'actively seeking out bloodshed'? Crushing any independent thought isn't 'acitvely seeking out bloodshed'? The Nazis didn't seek out bloodshed when they targeted the Jews for extermination? The Turks didn't seek out bloodshed when they targeted the Armenians for extermination?

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Do the Shapers need to reform or, possibly, be overthrown and replaced with a more compassionate government? Yes.

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Is reform, or a force of morally upstanding individuals going to be successful in overthrowing the Shapers? I doubt it.

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But with the way the Drakons are going about it, there won't be anything left to free by the time they're done.

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And the Shapers could have avoided all this by simply treating their creations and human lackeys with a bit more dignity. *sigh*

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Originally written by Thomas Hobbs, located on [url=http:
//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Revenge]Wikiquote[/url]:
The sixth precept of the natural law is, that in revenge and punishments we must have our eye not at the evil past, but the future good: that is, it is not lawful to inflict punishment for any other end, but that the offender may be corrected, or that others warned by his punishment may become better. But this is confirmed chiefly from hence, that each man is bound by the law of nature to forgive one another, provided he give caution for the future, as hath been showed in the foregoing article. Furthermore, because revenge, if the time past be only considered, is nothing else but a certain triumph and glory of mind, which points at no end (for it contemplates only what is past, but the end is a thing to come), but that which is directed to no end, is vain: that revenge therefore which regards not the future, proceeds from vain glory, and therefore without reason. But to hurt another without reason introduces a war, and is contrary to the fundamental law of nature. It is therefore a precept of the law of nature, that in revenge we look not backwards, but forward. Now the breach of this law is commonly called CRUELTY.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Nioca:

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Not yet. Right now, they have bigger things to worry about.

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I find that critics of Drakonian actions seem to apply the above logic rather selectively.

Whenever Drakons behave in an ethically questionable fashion, it's because they are inherently evil. But if they act in an ethical fashion, it's because they are forced to do so due to the war.

God forbid ever considering that the Drakons act in ethically questionable ways due to being forced into a war to prevent the extinction of their species.

Either way, it's pure conjecture to assume that once the Drakons win, they will run about annihilating all non-Drakon life.

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However, they made it clear that if they could safely get rid of the human/servile side of the rebellion, they would.

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Who's 'they'?

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They regard creations (and humans) with less compassion then the Shapers.

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Drakons have more compassion for creations than Shapers. They can be pretty condescending and easily irritated by 'lesser species', but not to the point of wiping them out for merely existing. However, I do agree that Drakons dislike humans. And for good reason. As Orois Blaze explains:

"We generally dislike humans greatly. There is a real grudge there. Since humans tried to exterminate us, you understand. And are still trying."

Even today, the Germans aren't too popular with the Polish and Jews. Go figure.

Note that the serviles have a strong dislike for humans as well. This is reflected by Pirik:

"Humans created us, then they enslaved us for centuries. Shapers were cruel to us, and non-Shapers tolerated us and gladly benefited from our labor. Now humans fight, but not for the rights of creations, the true justice in the rebel cause. They fight for greed. They fight to gain the Shaper powers for themselves. I hope, as a servile, that you have not grown too fond of the humans. I have seen much, and I tell you this. You will regret that."

I guess the hostility shown towards humans by serviles is evidence of the fact that serviles are big evil jerks.

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So what's to stop them from taking complete control, and effectively becoming the Shapers themselves, only with far more cruelty and power?

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Conjecture vs. reality. The Drakons 'might' take control and become as bad as the Shapers. Or they might willingly, or be forced, to become more peaceful when the war is over.

On the other hand, we know that life sucks under Shaper rule if you're an independent servile, Drayk, Drakon, Eyebeast, or human desiring autonomy.

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The Shapers need to reform, not be overthrown by tyrannical lizards.

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And how likely is 'reform'? And if you were a Jew under Nazi rule, would you wait for 'reform', or actively fight alongside the Allies?

The Drakons are far from perfect, but currently they are the lesser of the two evils for the Rebels.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Tale:

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The drakons are simply the latest generation of Shaping tyrants,

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The drakons haven't targeted sapient races for genocide. That makes them ethically superior to the Shapers, who target entire species for genocide for the crime of existing.

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Originally written by swapoer:

Well,if it is possible to change the hotkey?

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