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Choosing a side has never been so tough in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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quote:
Originally written by Wojiz:


1) Reform within the Shapers. Basically, slowly transition away from a totalitarian government to a secret sect.
2) Total destruction of the rebels and the shapers. The world would be thrust into the Dark Ages, but whatever sprung from the ashes could be a government much better than the shapers... or much worse.
3) The Trakovite path; destroy Shaping, society throws off its crutches and moves on, advances, prospers.

It seems like option 1 is the best path, but you can't play that way. Any ideas?

Yes, we have been discussing this for some time now on these Forums (most recently in the "G4 Poitics Revised" Topic), and some of us, including me, have come to the same conclusion as you do; Namely that option number 1, that of Shapers learning and evolving, would be the wisest.

The reason that you can't play this way in game is that in game, people have allot of prejudice, and greed, and anger, and loss, etc etc, to befuddle their minds. And they don't have all the facts either, like we do.
But you CAN play as a Pro-Shaper, and hope that in G5, the Shapers have evolved slightly.
Afterall, it only takes eons and eons to make a difference..

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Contra:

Oh, by the way, I have to fall back, atleast a tiny bit, on my "Caninsters are damnation" standpoint. I just encountered Litalia in G4, and she seems to have been able to cure her mind to a rather vast degree (compared to G3), even with her extensive Canister use.
Very interesting indeed.
Litalia is just as insane, if not more so, than any other canister user. She is arrogant to the point of forgetting you are in the room with her. She probably doesn't attack you outright because she doesn't sense a threat.

What's more interesting would be a canister user's reaction to another who is similarly enlightened. At one point, you meet up with someone who has used canisters (I forget who) and if you have used them as well the game says you have a mutual respect for each other's powers. This leads me to believe that there would be peace if everyone used canisters, rather than the absolute chaos people seem to fear so much.

I seriously doubt that a world ruled by arrogant madmen who's only intentions and purpose of life is to garner more and more power would include mutual respect and peace.
There would soon be Canister-powered, insane Warlords who pitted creations against eachother, all striving to be the one on top. The big dog.

..And after a few years, or decades, maybe one actually manages to become the absolute ruler of a realm (or the world?) with treachery and through raw force. This person would probably take controll of all canister use and creation, making sure noone could threaten him/her with equal power.
Then we'd have Shaper society again, untill the next rebellion..

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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..Now that I have read the story provided from the temple I will have to say that I am very pleased with how Jeff builds his stories.
So, the Shapers doomed themselves once, just as the Rebels will. I wonder if any of the Shaper Council knows this very old truth, and perhaps that is why they are so fierce in their persecution of illegal Shaping?

Oh, by the way, I have to fall back, atleast a tiny bit, on my "Caninsters are damnation" standpoint. I just encountered Litalia in G4, and she seems to have been able to cure her mind to a rather vast degree (compared to G3), even with her extensive Canister use.
Very interesting indeed.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:


Based on the history from ancient temple in Geneforge 1, it seems to me that Shapers started out as a kind of Trajkovites: survivors of the devastating shaping wars that destroyed the old Sulica civilization, who tried to impose strict controls on Shaping to prevent the repeat of such disasters. However, as SoT describes, that control was never as firm as they'd hoped for, and eventually one of the experiments got out of controls, producing canisters at the time when they could do the most damage.

..I remember hints in G1 of the people who lived there before (the ones who are now shades) used to shape, but I never actually went into the Ancient Temple (don't know why, really. Took too much effort, possibly) - So, enlighten me, please. Were these shades actually some sort of proto-shapers?

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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It's been a long time since I posted here.
Heck I haven't even finished G4 yet, and I'v been gone from these forums for almost two years now. Still, these discussions always draw me back.
So let's get to it, eh?

In all honesty, as many have pointed out, the Rebellion couldn't survive without the Drakons.
And if the Drakons were gone, they would support the Rebels because they then have the moral highground.
Okey, fair enough - A bunch of people fighting Shaper dictatorship, corruption, arrogance and, in some cases, slavery (for the creations).
Sounds nice, doesn't it? There's just one catch, that most people seem to forget; Canisters.

That's right. Even with the Drakons gone, the Rebels would never survive without Canisters (G4 points this out, and it's obviouse throughout the series that without this power, fighting the SHapers is pointless). Problem is, Canisters make you inte an arrogant, ravaging madman who can't accept anything but submission and uttermost "respect" from anyone who isn't as "pure" as they are.
In essence; Exactly like the Shapers, except the Shapers can actually controll themselves if they have to.

So even without the Drakons, the Rebels are doomed. Because when (and IF) they actually knock off all the Shapers and win the war, the now "purified" humans would seek to continue their quest for power, and take the role as shapers. Serviles and lesser creations to obey them, and Drayks most likely being threated as enemies and hunted all over again (becuase they are proud, afterall, and won't show the proper "respect" for Purified humans) - And we'd have Rebelion all over again, sooner or later.

I remember when we discussed the same thing, a long, long time ago. Might have been G2, but I think it was G3. Student of Trinty made the same point I did; That Rebels are too uncontrollable and powermad to make any good, even IF they managed to take charge and that change must come from within, from the Shapers. It might take centuries, but slowly more liberal ways could evolve. Like the fact that pitting creations against eachother is now illegal (but it hasn't always been, as told in G1).
The SHapers are wrong, but they CAN change. The Rebels are doomed by the very power they need to stay alive.

(Ever played G1 and used the Geneforge, then destroyed it so that noone else can use it? Do that, and imagine that you did it to get enough power to help the Rebelion, or Awakened to win their fight. You'll see what I mean.)

Edit: Typos. I'm tired, and I type too fast.

[ Monday, November 12, 2007 16:04: Message edited by: Contra ]

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Well, finally! in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
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Profile #0
I'm back on the boards. I'v been checking Spidweb about once a week, getting more and more frustrated about the slow release. Well, now it's here!
Good to see you all again - Contra.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Kill Bill (Spoilers) in Geneforge Series
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quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

It's okay not to make it too hard to finish the game. But there should be an additional 'ultra' ending that is more challenging. Perhaps with careful planning one could make a combat which is straightforward on Easy but impossible on Torment without great cunning. Or perhaps there could be an extra Easter Egg that is really hard. Something like the latter is a Geneforge tradition now, having not one but two extra super-tough areas that are not necessary to beat to end the game. So just ramp those up a bit, and give them more point. How much could one last hard part at the end really hurt sales?
Email this to Jeff, I acutally think he will give it some seriouse consideration.
Anything that makes a game playable more times is something that he will likely include.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Pylons in Avernum 4
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I always try to save my allies, no matter what game, so I kill the Pylons first, then I ask the Vahanati to join me.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
undead by mertis in Avernum 4
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I ran down to the Tower Colony and solved their problems before I got back to the Mertis Spiral, but that's because I ran out of Piercing Crystals.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Piercing crystal - barrier question in Avernum 4
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quote:
Originally written by *i:

The other place to learn it is in the ruins of Harston in the Giant Lands east of the Abyss. However, there is no person who teaches the spell as with Bolt of Fire, etc.
...And even if you can find a spellbook with Dispell Barrier, a very powerful spell, there isn't a single book in the game that will teach you Bolt of Fire. A tad annoying.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Khoth's Red Herring? (Possible spoiler) in Avernum 4
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They open, of this I am sure. I don't even recall having to use any Tool Use to move the levers.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
any use for research notes in GF2? in Geneforge Series
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Oh, right, this is a G2 discussion? Heh, my bad.
No no no, in G2, Guardian can smoke anything, withotu or with Canisters. It's so patheticly easy, even on Torment.
Agent becomes harder, however, mostly because you don't have an efficient Daze untill late in the game (when you acquire Stong Daze).
I was refering to the G3 guardian.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Follow or not follow the Shaper's way? -GF3- in Geneforge Series
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quote:
Originally written by Cyber_Skaarj:

I take the rebel route every time. I just don't seem to have the iron will needed to be a heartless b******* towards people and serviles. :P
You will become a heartless bastard dictator if you follow the rebel path, eventually.
When playing as a loyalist you atleast get a chance to redeem yourself later in your life, like Khyrryk.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
any use for research notes in GF2? in Geneforge Series
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..And even when playing as a loyalist Agent without canisters on Torment, you can smoke everyone and everything without a bead of sweat.
Game was made far too easy for Agents, and far too hard for Guardians.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Kill Bill (Spoilers) in Geneforge Series
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Before we kill Ghaldring, we have to find Ghaldring. That will probably harder than anything else. He will most likely never, ever meet with a Shaper, or anything that he doesn't have full controll over.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
The Vahnati Envoy's "Needs" in Avernum 4
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[quote=Dikiyoba]
[qb]Be careful. Alorael's minions, er, friends, are really touchy about anyone who mimics Alorael's sig in any shape or form. Even one that doesn't remotely resemble it.

Edit: Dikiyoba knows exactly what Dikiyoba is talking about.
[/quote]Alorael might not be happy, but I am.
I'm happy that I have managed to spread TFL quotes on the board.

Long live Bahl'al The Watcher.

...Which is sort of a paradox, since he is technically
dead..well..Undead.

Third and final edit: Uh, yeah, I did not mean to dubblepost. My internet is laging or something.

[ Thursday, January 26, 2006 05:05: Message edited by: Contra ]

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
The Vahnati Envoy's "Needs" in Avernum 4
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quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Be careful. Alorael's minions, er, friends, are really touchy about anyone who mimics Alorael's sig in any shape or form. Even one that doesn't remotely resemble it.

Edit: Dikiyoba knows exactly what Dikiyoba is talking about.

Alorael might not be happy, but I am.
I'm happy that I have managed to spread TFL quotes on the board.

Long live Bahl'al The Watcher.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Stuck. in Avernum 4
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Profile #11
Did you speak with Rone, the court magician?

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Stuck. in Avernum 4
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I'v tried to agument him, to keep him alive. He still dies. He always takes 73 damage, and he always dies.
It's supposed to happen.
Go and speak with Rone, and then speak with Starrus. You will get your quest.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Did I miss the first trial? in Avernum 4
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True, but there is a hint that leads you to the first trial.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Clawbug Infestation in Geneforge Series
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Ignore crumbling labs, and go to the area south of it (forgot the name, but it has allot of Pylons in it), in the SW part of this area is a hole in the ground which you can climb down in, and thus get to the infestion.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
GF2: guardian claymore or puresteel blade in Geneforge Series
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For a Guardian, you should use Emerald Chestguard. Provides better defence and higher damage in combat. Crystaline Shroud is only for Shapers.

Using melee weapons as a Guardian in G3 is really though. An example is the Guardian Claymore doing 10-80 damage in G2, and 10-40 in G3. That's half the damage.
Wands, crystals and javelines, however, have an increased usefulness. Playing a "Hunter Guardian" is both challenging and fun, and deals out more damage than melee weapons compared to the investment in skillpoints.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
Undergroud fortress west of Spire and Erika's tower (there could be spoilers) in Avernum 4
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The shamblers were a real letdown compared to how hard they used to be in previouse Avernums.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
GF2: guardian claymore or puresteel blade in Geneforge Series
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quote:
Originally written by Micawber:

quote:
Originally written by CPeters:

But (my recollection is not perfect here) if the guardian claymore adds strength to your creations as well, and you actually have a powerful creation, then the claymore's stat boosts pay off.
I can confirm it gives +2 strength to your creation(s) as well as your PC (in this case a guardian, as you correctly deduced). But I'm not sure how much difference +2 strength really makes to my gazer's attack; no more can I quantify how much the +2 strength boosts my PC's attack. It would simply be too boring to do a proper controlled trial.

Thanks anyway.

Luckily, we have had many tech-geeks before you do this boring stuff for us.
+2 strenght means another two levels of damage in combat, and another 10% to hit in melee. What's a level? Check your gameguide, where it lists spells. A gaxer uses Kill, if I am not mistaken, so another level would mean..2-16 extra damage, I think.
For your Guardian, it would depend on what level the Guardian Glaymore has. I don't know this, but he will have an icnreased 10% chance to hit, and the damage increase is sizeable still.
Not to mention that it helps carrying around stuff, resist stun, an d the Quick Action is nice too.
Really, in G2, no other weapon can touch it. In G3, all melee weapons blow, and yet this one still comes up on top.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00
G3 Shaper Guide in Geneforge Series
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I hope you go through the mass number of posts on this forum first, to see if there is anything that has been discussed before.

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"..The seventh wave of Thrall stumbled and climbed over the slippery, piled dead and Mazzarin saw The Watcher with them and at last knew the number of his days."
Posts: 522 | Registered: Wednesday, May 4 2005 07:00

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