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Displayed name	Suspicious Vlish
Member number	2245
Title	Infiltrator
Postcount	522
Homepage	http://N/A
Registered	Friday, November 15 2002 08:00

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A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Sunday, January 7 2007 00:56 Profile Homepage #72 Emp: quote: Black and White: Like I said, a whole new scenario entirely. This time it is not a matter of revolting against your own government, it's a matter of being a damn slave! There is a huge difference between being a slave in a racist society and living under an oppressive government. You keep making analogies that don't make any sense. The analogy makes perfect sense when tied in with my main contention. The main contention: Option 4 may be feasible, even when the government/stratum of society that you are fighting against is NOT foreign. Hence, the distinction of 'foreigner/indigenous ruler' is incidental in some cases. As you yourself have admitted, you would employ Option 4 (No holds barred) against the white regime, despite the fact that it is an indigenous (not foreign) government. quote: 1984: I've read it, thanks. You've given no indication that you have in the past. Which is rather annoying, as I would have used analogies from '1984', which I find far more applicable to Shaper society. I succumbed to utilizing an Imperial Japan hypothetical, because: 1. Very few people have read '1984', whereas anyone worth their salt knows basic WWII history. 2. Knowing that most posters here are American, I wanted to involve them on an emotional level. Granted, the Imperial Japan hypothetical isn't as accurate a portrayal of Shaper society as '1984' is, but it does the job, all the same. No analogy is perfect, especially in this case, where Jeff has invented an entire political order from scratch. quote: I don't understand the relevance. I can understand the analogy between the Shapers and the Party (good one) INNER PARTY. ;) quote: , but I don't get how any of that relates the the oppressive Japanese regime in your example. I used it to demonstrate that a different stratum of society is identical in nature to a 'foreign' force in the eyes of another stratum of society, if their aims are in conflict, and one oppresses the other. Ergo: It is possible that while your oppressors are indigenous, they may behave in a manner which makes the 'foreigner' distinction incidental. quote: Control Group: "Unsupported assumtion." Are you kidding? "So wouldn't it make more sense to use Creations as a baseline?" How does making someone more prone to join a certain faction the control group make any sense at all? It makes sense because Creations behave in a predictable way, whereas the humans and Shapers tend to be more complex creatures, and hence have varying alliances. A human mage may feel resentment towards the Shapers due to the overt control exerted over them, whereas a wealthy merchant may feel quite happy with the Shaper regime. quote: Sure they represent a stratum (which is the singular form of strata, by the way), and that is the stratum of the common people! Aren't we looking at what common people would do in these situation? Is there something I'm missing here? I was never looking at what 'common' people would do in this situation, but as to how those severely oppressed would respond. Given that Creations suffer by far the most under the Shaper regime, it would make more sense if they were used as the baseline when it comes to determining how one reacts to Shaper oppression. quote: Uh, have you played the games? Please, humor me by explaining this statement. Given that the Drakons were few and far between in GF 2 and GF 3, whereas the serviles, drayks and rogue Shapers performing most of the militant work, it doesn't seem like such a stretch to assume that they could overthrow the Drakons. If it suited them to do so, that is... Of course, this doesn't take GF 4 into consideration. Given that I didn't create this thread in the GF 4 forum, I'm assuming that it is reasonable that post GF 3 events should not be mentioned. quote: You can't keep saying I make unsupported claims when you keep saying things like this. You see freelance mages all the time in the games, where have you been? Freelance mages? Are you kidding? Freelance mages are under extreme scrutiny by the Shapers. For Christ's sake, the Shapers extreme control of all magic is mentioned several times during GF 2 and GF 3. The rebel mage on Greenwood Isle complains bitterly about such harsh control. A dialog box that pops up when you enter the School of Magery in Dhonal's Keep makes it quite clear that the Shaper's have very tight control over who becomes a mage, and what spells they can learn. quote: Creations: I'm glad we agree on the creations to slaves analogy. That one actually makes sense. Since there are no slaves in your original scenario, any argument you make concerning creations is now irrelevant. If by original scenario, you mean the Imperial Japanese scenario, may I point out that the occupied Americans are equivalent to the slaves of Imperial Japan? quote: Wasteland: You do realize that the rebellion did not always exist, yes? Umm, yes. Given that I asserted that the Shapers were responsible for the creation of the Rebellion due to their blundering on Sucia, it follows that I accept that the Rebellion has not always existed. quote: The Shapers kept the world safe from rogues and crap for years before this all started. Good for them. I'm not criticizing the Shaper regime of 100 years ago. I'm criticizing the state of the recent Shaper Regime, beginning at the events of Sucia, and ending at GF3. As with the Roman Empire, I have no doubts that the Shaper Regime once functioned efficiently. But it's quite clear that ever since Sucia, it's messed up time and time again. The Shaper regime is in decline, and can no longer be designated as an orderly and efficient Empire. quote: Just because they are fighting to bring the world back to order once again doesn't mean that they are incapable of keeping the world from falling into chaos in the first place. The above is just an internal contradiction on your behalf. If the Shaper regime wasn't incapable of keeping the world from falling into chaos in the first place, then there would be no present chaos. You seem to forget that the Shapers are not fighting an external foe. They are fighting an enemy of their own creation. quote: You can't ignore all those years of peace just because there is war now. Yes, I can ignore all those years of peace, given that the Shaper regime of 100 years ago is not necessarily representative of the Shaper regime of today. Empires have a tendency to become decadent and decline as the times change. The Shapers have had a good run, but it's come to an end. They will either adapt, or crumble. quote: They may be indirectly responsible for the rebellion, but give them a break. No, I can't give them a break. The Shapers have just made too many inexcusable blunders. The Rebellion is the product of their arrogance, decadence and inability to compromise and adapt. quote: Shaping is something so unpredictable that a single man can become a huge threat, the fact that the Shapers held off a rebellion of this scale for such a long time is a testimony to the strength of their order. You're trying to rationalize simple inadequacy on behalf of the Shapers. The fact that the Shapers are having difficulty handling their own creations is testimony to their plain short-sightedness and stupidity. quote: -------------------------------- They weren't aware of what liberation would entail for France. ------------------------------------------------ I'll just ignore the obvious fact that this statement makes no sense and go back to my earlier argument. You are mixing up two different scenarios again. In the original scenario (as well as the France/Germany one) you are being invaded by a foriegn power! The "devil you know" saying only works when your talking about an indigenous regime. I merely wanted to point out that 'Siding with the Devil You Know instead of the Possible Devil' philosophy isn't always sound or appropriate. If the current 'devil' is a barbaric and all powerful 'Inner Party', then you haven't got much to lose by siding with another possible devil (EastAsia perhaps?). [ Sunday, January 07, 2007 00:59: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Saturday, January 6 2007 21:25 Profile Homepage #67 Emperor: quote: Waylander: I would make the argument that the American founding fathers were not, in fact, fighting against their own government. The colonies had no representatives in parliament, and thus they were the equivalent of being ruled by a foreign government. And tell me, do creations and/or non-Shaper humans have any representatives in the ruling body? From what I understand, the government consists solely of Shapers. If we accept your logic, we must conclude that both human non-Shapers, and Creations, are being ruled by what is the equivalent of a foreign government, which has not been democratically elected. The more you continue talking, the deeper you dig your own grave. quote: As for your black and white scenario. Of course I would be willing to kill whitey in that situation. Interesting. You'd be willing to commit treason by killing your own people? Or are you willing to admit that perhaps whites aren't your own people? Perhaps they are a different strata of society, whose interests conflict with your own strata of society. Careful, you're ever so close to further justifying acts of extremism against different stratas of your own society. quote: But now your just altering your original scenario to fit your argument. No. I'm altering the scenario, since you seem to be hung up on irrelevancies. While the Shaper's are indeed part of Shaper society, they are in a different strata from both non-Shaper humans and Creations. They may as well be considered a foreign force. Which is what I attempted to demonstrate by the 'blacks vs. whites' example. I'd say that the Shaper society's hierarchy resembles the one observed in "1984". Inner Party ('Aristocracy') = Shapers Outer Party ('Peasants') = Non-Shaper humans Proles ('Slaves') = Creations quote: In the original scenario, my positions remain the same. As for option 4 attacking only targets of ‘strategic value’, just one question: how am I supposed to ‘strategically’ encourage prostitution? You're nitpicking. The question here isn't whether prostitution would have any strategic value. The question here is assuming that encouraging prostitution DID have strategic value, would you be willing to engage in that act? Quite simply, I'm merely attempting to gauge 'how far' the audience would go when attempting to fight a regime. I actually pilfered part of that quote from Question 4 from the novel '1984' (by George Orwell), a book which I have continually suggested you read in order to shed some light on my manner of thought. quote: Control Group: Non-shaper humans make up the biggest fraction of the population. 1. Unsupported assumption. 2. Merely being the 'biggest fraction' of a population is not a justification for designating that faction the 'control group'. quote: Creations are practically defaulted to be rebels if they can think freely. So wouldn't it make more sense to use Creations as a baseline? Personally, I don't think that any strata of society can be designated the 'control group'. Each strata has different (and often conflicting) goals. quote: Plus, the non-shapers humans are as close as you get to humans in the real world, and since our debate consists of issues from both worlds, they are the logical choice. Nonsense. The non-shaper humans are not the closest your can get to humans in the real world. The non-Shaper humans represent a strata of Shaper society, which is equivalent to the peasants in Roman society. quote: Everything in the game suggests otherwise. It is made clear in Geneforge 2 through 4 that drakons run everything The Drakons dominate very little. In fact, they generally seem to be confined to the research halls, whereas the rest of the Rebellion is spread throughout the lands. If it so suited the drayk-human-servile portions of the Rebellion, they could quite easily depose the Drakons. But it wouldn't suit their interests to do so. Much better to do so once the war is won, and a Free Republic is to be established. quote: and treat serviles and drayks like crap. A Sergeant generally treats the soldiers he commands like crap. Hell, the Allies used many of their footsoldiers as cannon fodder (D-Day and Gallipoli come to mind). Treating someone 'like crap' doesn't exactly amount to oppression. Also note that the vast majority of Rebel Lands are administrated by serviles and Drayks, not Drakons. quote: I object to this description of the Shaper regime. People are allowed to live freely, By live freely, do you mean living in perpetual fear, and slavish obedience, to the Shaper regime? Where even an apprentice Shaper can order about experienced mages, quartermasters, and human captains? quote: trade freely, Don't delude yourself. Given that the Shaper regime can quite easily confiscate the goods of a merchant on a whim, I wouldn't say that free trade exists in the Shaper Empire. quote: and even practice magic freely. Complete and utter nonsense! It's stated many times throughout the series that what magic non-Shaper humans can practice is tightly regulated by the Shaper regime. It fact, it's one of the reasons that non-Shaper mages are so bitter towards the Shaper regime. quote: No experiments are practiced on the human population. They are practiced on Creations. You know, sentient beings. You haven't forgotten about that, have you? Then again, people tend to forget about the slaves/lower class. quote: The Shapers keep the world safe from what would otherwise be a horrifying wasteland if shaping were out of control. Again, you're wrong. The Shapers have not kept the world safe, otherwise rogues wouldn't be such a threat to the citizens of their Empire. quote: All they ask in return is total control over the shaping aspect of the world, nothing more. No. All they ask in return is complete and utter obedience from both creations, and non-Shaper humans. The Shapers control far more than just the 'Shaping Aspect' of the world. quote: I fail to see the oppression people always speak of. Open your eyes. quote: Saying the Shapers are responsible for the rebellion is a stretch. That's not a very effective rebuttal to a statement which I have supported with numerous examples. quote: You keep saying that the Shaper regime has failed, but look at the games again: they are winning the war against the rebellion! Are they? From where I stand (having not played GF4), the Rebellion continues to grow stronger and stronger, despite the best efforts of the Shapers to hamper it. If the Shaper regime were truly as orderly and efficient as you claim, then: 1. The Rebellion wouldn't exist in the first place. 2. The Rebellion wouldn't have been allowed to ferment, and grow to become such a significant threat. 3. Anarchy would not exist in the Shaper Empire. quote: Saying that they have failed and so the rebellion must be superior is just crap. I don't remember claiming that the Rebellion is a ruling body is superior to the Shaper regime, precisely because the Rebellion hasn't yet established a new order. quote: They knew the Germans better than the English? The allies were evil? This is a terrible example... it makes no sense whatsoever. It makes perfect sense. The French knew that they were suffering under the Germans. They weren't aware of what liberation would entail for France. Hence, according to the saying you continue to make use of, the French would have been better off accepting the devil they know (German rule), instead of the devil they don't (Liberation, and possible anarchy and takeover). -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
How exactly does Trajkov stay sane? in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Saturday, January 6 2007 02:16 Profile Homepage #15 mars: quote: Buuhhha!!!!!!! he screambed at me for misbelling Trajkov!!BUHAAA!!! i wan't my mumy!! I note that the above poster has been 'Canned'. Why? He provides a constant source of comic relief. [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 02:17: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Saturday, January 6 2007 01:06 Profile Homepage #64 Zeviz: quote: Your comparison of Israel with Nazi Germany is about as insensitive as the Pope's remarks about Islam, or those Danish Mohammed cartoons. If you don't understand why those annoying Jews got so offended, p I couldn't care less if you find my example 'insensitive'. I merely made a factual observation, and that was that Israel makes systematic use of collective punishment in order to quell dissent. And all you've been doing is attempting to pick a fight, merely because I dare to mention Israel. Since when was using Israel as example forbidden in these forums? Am I breaking any rules? If so, please quote which ones. Otherwise, if you have a problem with my posts, you're welcome to ignore them. I wouldn't consider it a huge loss if you refused to respond. [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 01:14: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Saturday, January 6 2007 00:46 Profile Homepage #63 Emperor: quote: There is a huge difference between when the oppressors are outsiders and when they are your own government. And yet there is very little difference when it comes to oppression. Oppression is oppression, not matter who is dealing it out. I'm doubt that you'd find it much consolation if it was a countryman attaching electrodes to your testicles, instead of a foreign occupier. Also note that your phrase 'your own government' is a little deceiving. I seriously doubt that a government which engages in such crimes of humanity was democratically elected by the people (and no, Hitler was not democratically elected, contrary to common misconception). Hence, to call it 'YOUR government' is highly misleading. Especially since Shapers aren't representative of the citizens they lead (non-Shaper humans and Creations). quote: I suppose your right in that, if the American government itself was being oppressive like the Japanese one your describing, I would probably still revolt. That's rather reassuring. I was a little concerned that you didn't have the spirit of your forefather revolutionaries in you. After all, American revolutionaries fought against their own government, hence committing High Treason. quote: The difference is, since I'm revolting against my own people, I would not pull out all stops. I would not want to hurt civilians Would you be willing to hurt civilians if they supported the corrupt regime? Let's revert to my 'whites and blacks' scenario. Assuming that you are a black slave in a white dominated country who maintains control with brutality similiar to that of Imperial Japan, would you be willing to harm any white civilian, or any blacks who collaborate with the white regime, if it aided your struggle for liberation? quote: and such because that would only lessen support for the rebellion itself. I would be much more tactful in my choice of targets when revolting against my own government, because it is a much more delicate situation than throwing off a foreign invasion. I agree that in some instances, terrorism and extreme acts of violence merely detract from your cause. However, you will note that I carefully worded Option Four: "I would engage in a 'dirty' war of resistance against the invaders, employing any acts of resistance which have strategic value in destabilizing the occupying regime, no matter how ethically unsound they may seem." In otherwords, Option 4 does not necessarily require for you to support senseless acts of terrorism which detract from your cause. All it states is whether you would be willing to commit acts of terror if it had a net benefit effect to your resistance. Would you be willing to kill civilians which supported the corrupt regime which you are fighting against, if the act resulted in a more successful resistance effort? quote: Do not say there is no difference, people would much sooner support an indigenous psycho dictator than a foreign anything. The above is a strawman argument. You've obviously misunderstood. I never claimed there was no difference between a foreign power, and a tyrannical ruling strata of society in your own country. Indigenous inhabitants often tend to be more outraged when occupied by a foreign power, due to a human's ability to feel a sense of nationalism. However, I did claim that this difference was incidental when it came to one of my contentions. And that contention is that rationally, oppression is oppression, plain and simple. Merely because your own government is practicing it, instead of a foreign power, does not make such acts of barbarity more palatable. In fact, I'd argue that it is far worse when your countryman oppresses you, instead of a foreigner. You'd expect better from a comrade. quote: In the Geneforge war, I assume I'm a non-shaper human, because that is as close as it gets to a control group. Control group? Huh? Are you treating a highly complex political and sociological situation as a science experiment? Nevertheless, each group in Geneforge has its own interests and goals, and you need to justify why non-Shaper humans should be considered as a 'control' group. quote: Weighing the options, oppression under insane chaotic drakonsor oppression under strict orderly Shapers, I'll always take the latter. 1. Drakons are insane? I'd disagree. They just seem like reptilian forms of Barzhal. However, the hatred for creations is substituted for a hatred (and admiration) for Shapers. 2. Would I prefer rule under Drakons? I don't really know, as they haven't been given the chance to form a government in peacetime. They are pretty brutal when fighting a war. But then agian, who isn't? But that's irrelevant, because as the matter stands, the drakons don't oppress diddly squat, and they most likely never will, as the Rebellion consists of far more than just the Drakons. Presently, the Shapers hold almost total control, and oppress all that is not a Shaper. So you essentially have a choice between CONTINUING to remain under Shaper oppression, or POSSIBLY ending up Drakon rule. As you yourself said, if you were under oppression, you would seek aid from Nazi Germany. After all, you couldn't fight Nazi Germany while under the bootheel of Imperial Japan. Why are you suddenly changing your tune? What's the difference between 'insane' Drakons, and megalomanic Nazi Germany? 3. Even if your claim that "Shaper society is orderly" was accurate, it is still a laughable claim. After all, all that is required to maintain such order is the deprivation of basic human rights, the suppression of all free and independent thought, and the practicing of cruel and inhumane experiments. That's not so bad, right? :rolleyes: As I see it, there are two major questions here: 1. "Can an orderly society exist in which human rights are respected, and creations are awarded equal rights?". I believe that the answer here is a resounding YES. However, if this is to happen, the Shaper regime must be deposed and replaced with a new government. The Takers were right in this aspect. If Creations are to ever be treated with any respect or dignity, the Shaper regime must first be scattered to the wind. 2. "Can the Rebellion produce the society I outlined in Qu 1.?" Again, I believe that answer here is yes. There will definitely be anarchy and chaos during the transition from a Shaper regime to a Free Republic, but that is the trademark of any revolution. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. The Drakkons will definitely make forming a democratic Free Republic a headache, but I think it's reasonable to say that cooler heads will prevail. The younger generation of serviles, drayks and humans seem to be a pretty rational bunch. quote: The Shapers did not create the rebellion, why would you say that? Let's look at this objectively. The Shapers were the major contributors to the Rebellion, because they: - Abandoned the serviles on Sucia, hence producing unchecked Shaper resentment, and resulting in the formation of the Takers (the 'seeds' of the Rebellion'). - Abandoned the drayks on Sucia, and declared them 'Barred' Creations after realized that they had created something that they couldn't control. This pretty much forced a rogue Drayk - Servile alliance. - Engaged in almost unchecked research, which they left unguarded. - Allowed one of their own members to get his grubby hands on this forbidden research (Barzhal). Many Shapers defected, and allied with Barzhal. As a result, extreme power was put into the hands of the serviles-drayk alliance, and the Drakon was born. - Due to their stubborness, inaction, and refusal to compromise with a new political power, the Shapers allowed the Rebellion to grow and further feel justified in a war against the Shapers. quote: Even if they did, how does that make the rebellion a better choice? You've just missed the clue train. In my previous post, I pointed out that the only real reason put forward in support of the Shapers is that they are a stable, orderly, efficient regime. However, nothing could be further from the truth. It was Shaper inaction, arrogance, brutality and stubborness which triggered, and was the main contributor, to the formation and fermentation of the Rebellion, and the anarchy which now sweeps through Shaper ruled territory. The anarchy observed in the Geneforge series is prime evidence that the Shaper regime has [b]failed.[b] Their way of life no longer works, and the creations and humans are beginning to realize this. If the Shaper regime was stable, orderly and efficient (as you claim), then they wouldn't be in such a mess. quote: I’ll take the evil I know over the evil I don’t know. Most people will. Then you'd need to explain the vast number of revolutions which have occured over the centuries. I can just imagine the WWII French denying the assistance of the Allies as they were being led to the gas chambers. "Nope, sorry, but we don't want your help. We'll take the evil we know over the evil we don't." What you need to realize is that the beginning of the end of the Shaper regime has come. Geneforge 1 contained a classic quote, which describes the entire series. "You can't unring a bell." This quote doesn't just apply to the forbidden Shaper knowledge which has been leaked out to anti-Shaper factions. It also applies to the Rebellion in general. It has been demonstrated that creations and humans are capable of gaining and maintaining independence, as well as being able to hold own against the Shapers. If the Rebellion were utterly crushed tomorrow, the seed of Rebellion would remain, to spring forth again and again. Thanks to the events on Sucia Island, both Creations and humans know that they can function as dignified and independent beings. And while this notion remains, the Shapers are doomed to eventual defeat. You can't unring a bell. Ideas never die, no matter how many people you kill. [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 01:01: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Friday, January 5 2007 17:28 Profile Homepage #55 Dikiyobi: quote: 8. Attempt to flee/escape. (Which should go between 1 and 2, really.) That's passive resistance, especially when you compare it with the Geneforge scenario. Serviles and humans can't 'escape' Shaper territory, unless they take an active part in the Rebellion. And if they take any part in the Rebellion (even a non-violent role), they are engaging in resistance to the Shaper regime. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Friday, January 5 2007 17:22 Profile Homepage #54 Zeviz: quote: Waylander, if you can't resist discussing Israel, I'm not. You are attempting to push me into discussing it, however. In order to prevent the derailing of this topic, I won't respond to any attempt to open a discussion relating to the Israel vs. Palestine conflict. quote: Waylander, the problem with your conclusion is that responces of most people fall into the wast area between "will do anything, including blowing up children at restaraunts" and "fighting only proper battles between uniformed armies". These people chose randomly between options 3 and 4 of your poll, so in reality the number of people who would chose the most extreme option is probably much lower. 1. Quite simply, I don't agree that posters have 'chosen randomly'. Quite the contrary, the posters have chosen the option which is most similiar to their actual opinion. 2. If a potential voter feels that my poll does not include a viewpoint similiar to their own, they can quite easily abstain from voting, and merely express their option in this thread. The below 7 poll options you suggested are not necessary... quote: I think following categories should do: 1. No resistance. = Covered by Option 1. 2. Unarmed resistance doomed to failure. = Covered by Option 2. 3. Fighting only proper battles between armies. (Already failed, otherwise you wouldn't be conquered.) = Covered by Option 3. 4. Trying to minimize enemy's civilian casualties, even at the risk to own fighters. = Covered by Option 3. 5. Doing whatever it takes to destroy military objectives, including military hospitals and bases where soldiers live together with families. = The phrase 'whatever it takes' is rather broad. You'd need to create a new poll in order to determine the actions one is willing to take to harm the opponents military. 6. Attacking civilians just to "stir things up". = Covered by Option 4. 7. Torturing children, spreading deseases among civilian population, etc. = Covered by Option 4. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Friday, January 5 2007 17:05 Profile Homepage #52 Emp: quote: The word of the day is plurality: the most votes but still less than 50%. Thanks for the term. Although Aussies and the British do use the term 'majority' to describe the largest proportion, even if said proportion is less than 50%. quote: In your analogy, are the Shapers represented by Japan? This makes the Shapers looks far worse than they really are. Also, I don't think the Shapers treat the people nearly as bad as the Japanese in your description. I know I'm nitpicking, but that explains the contradiction in my coices. Not really. - Imperial Japan uses the occupied Americans in cruel experiments. The Shapers use creations in cruel experiments. - Imperial Japan does not allow the occupied citizens to form any political movement, or voice their desire for independence. The Shapers do not allow the thought of independence from Shaper rule to even enter the heads of the non-Shaper humans and their creations. Needless to say, a political party consisting of creations is out of the question. - Occupied Americans have no rights. Humans and serviles have no rights, even to that of a fair trial. If a Shaper wishes to dispossess you of your home and your possessions, tough titty. If a Shaper takes a dislike to you and wishes to vapourize you, tough luck. - Imperial Japan uses extreme brutality to enforce its rule. The Shaper government employs extreme brutality to enforce its rule. - Imperial Japan possesses an elitist attitude, where it considers the Japanese man superior to all other races. Likewise, the Shapers consider themselves superior to all non-Shapers. In fact, I can't really detect any noticable difference between my Imperial Japan, and the Shaper Regime. quote: For one, the Shapers aren't a foriegn government like the Japanese would be in America. 1. The above is debatable. Did the Shapers establish their order by invading the two major continents, and tearing the land from the hands of the indigenous, non-Shaper inhabitants? 2. I've explained why the distinction between 'foreign oppression' and 'indigenous oppression' is irrelevant. My hypothetical scenario was established to demonstrate that under severe oppression, one is willing to employ desperate measures in order to resist and refuse. WHO the oppressor is is incidental to my contention. Oppression is oppression, whether your oppressor is black or white, foreigner or countryman. quote: I would go with the Shapers in the Geneforge war, Would you go with the Shapers if you were a servile? What about a non-Shaper human? Would you aid a regime which has a long history of oppressing and intimidating your kind? You might claim that at least Shaper society is stable. On the surface, that may seem a valid objection. However, Ancient Egypt and Nazi Germany were also a stable societies. Unemployment was at a record low, law and order dominated, and society ran smoothly. However, I doubt that the Egyptian slaves would have smiled when you reassured them that 'at least you have a job, and a place in the current society'. And I'm sure that it would have been of little consolation to the Jews if you told them "Well, by accepting your gassing without resistance, you are ensuring that Germany remains stable", as they were being led to the gas chambers. An orderly society is not necessarily a desirable social order. And I think it is debatable as to whether the Shaper society is even orderly, given that they are responsible for the creation of the Rebellion. How anyone can support the Shaper regime when it in fact created the anarchy which they claim to detest is contradictory. quote: but I would go with the nation not invading me in the hypothetical real world war. According to your analogy, those are two different sides. You're apparently confused, and are unintentionally obfuscating the issue as a result. The question here isn't whether you would assist an invader, but whether... 1. You would employ severe means to overthrow a regime (either indigenous OR foreign) which oppressed your particular strata of society. For instance, would your opinion change if I substituted 'Imperial Japan' for the ruling white elitist class, while I specified that the rebellion consisted of the oppressed blacks (assuming that the individual answering my question is also black)? 2. You would ally yourself with another group suffering for megalomania in order to fight your current oppressor. Does it really matter WHO your oppressor is? Would the severity of your resistance change if your oppressor was not a foreigner? Think carefully about this. [ Friday, January 05, 2007 17:09: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Friday, January 5 2007 15:25 Profile Homepage #47 Dikiyobi: quote: Can I nitpick? 45% is not "the majority". 45% can be a majority, if each of the other three options received less than 45% of the votes. If there are more than two options available, the majority can be less than 50%. Remember, Tony Blair was voted in on a majority of less than 50%. Perhaps the word 'majority' has a slightly different meaning in American politics (note: I'm Australian). Either way, Option 4 has received far more votes than Options 1, 2 or 3. That is what is important here. quote: The majority of people say they would fight, certainly, but it's rather misleading to say that the majority of voters would do whatever it takes. We could quibble over this, but I think it's obvious that the poll does suggest that people will take extreme measures (which are often labelled as 'radical' by spectators) against extreme oppression. quote: But you've created an interesting discussion and tied it back into the game, so kudos from Dikiyoba. Thanks! :D -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Friday, January 5 2007 15:15 Profile Homepage #45 Alberich: quote: A few things to keep in mind. Firstly, with any kind of resistance, passive or otherwise, a really brutal occupier has a simple way around it: reprisals. Speak to a crowd, and everyone who stays to listen to you disappears. If three soldiers die in an ambush, 30 citizens of the nearest village are shot. Support for the resistance would dry up fast! I suggest you read 'The Moon is Down' by John Steinbeck. He argues that when occupiers use the harsh tactics which you describe, support for the resistance would actually increase. Collective punishment only increases resentment amongst the occupied, and hence encourages resistance. Witness Israel's use of collective punishment against the Palestinians and Lebanese in order to 'suppress terrorism' (this is merely an example. And yet, we observe the opposite effect (this is merely used as an example, not to open a new point of discussion). The Nazis also employed collective punishment, to their detriment. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Friday, January 5 2007 14:55 Profile Homepage #44 Wow, this thread has turned out to be quite a success. I think that most (if not all) posters here are aware as to what I am alluding to with my hypothetical scenario. What's interesting here is that a majority of individuals have chosen option 4, where you will do 'anything it takes' to resist oppression, no matter how unethical it may seem. And yet, it seems that when it comes to the issue of the Shapers vs. the Rebellion, posters seem to have very little sympathy for the Rebellion. Mostly because it is too bloodthirsty. Perhaps now that I've painted a analogy which is more relevant to our lives, people can at least be a little more sympathetic towards the Rebellion's perceived extremism. Why was Nazi Germany mentioned? It does NOT represent the Rebellion, as one poster suggested. More accurately, it represents the Drakon alliance. The serviles, humans and drayks of the Rebellion are often criticized for allying themselves with the megalomaniac Drakons (Nazi Germany), who may not be ethically superior to the Shapers (Imperial Japan). But as Emperor Tug pointed out earlier: quote: Sure I'd seek assistance from Nazi Germany, why not? It's not like I can fight them while under Japan's heel. Many would say that the serviles/humans/drayks are merely exchanging one master for another. But that's not a given. It's not even really known whether the Drakons will be on top of the food chain when the war ends. What IS a given is that in their current condition, serviles, humans and drayks suffer under the complete and total control of an oppressive Shaper regime, and have done so for as long as they can remember. The crimes of Shaper rule against non-Shapers are well documented. When you're desperate, you get the help which you have available. Not the help which you'd necessarily want. Allying yourself with a megalomaniac is not an act of evil. It's an act of desperation. This has been demonstrated time and time again. A rather nice example is Poland. During the early 1800's, after the Partitioning of Poland between Austria, Prussia and Russia, the Polish served with distinction under Napoleon Bonaparte. They did so because Napoleon promised to do his best in order to carve a new Poland out of Europe. Sadly, due to Liepzig and Waterloo, he wasn't successful. During WW1, Poland was willing to support Germany in order to liberate itself from Russian rule. During WW2, they allied themselves with the Russians in order to liberate themselves from Russian rule. Quite simply, I do not see the Drakons as 'the' Rebellion, but a Nazi Germany. A necessary evil, which the Rebellion must (temporarily) ally itself with. They are powerful, but there are relatively few of them when compared to the rest of the Rebellion. Those in the front lines, those marching in rank and file, are serviles, humans, drayks, and rogue Shapers. They are more numerous, and if they truly wished it, they could shake off the Drakons like a horse shakes the flies away with its tail. No doubt people are going to start and nitpick my analogy. Yes yes, it's not 100% similiar. That's what makes an analogy an analogy. What is important is that it demonstrates that: 1. The majority of posters here appear to be willing to engage in methods of resistance which are 'extreme', when they are being held in thrall by a highly oppressive regime. Whether it is foreign, or an 'indigenous' strata of society (think the 'Inner Party' from 1984, or the Royalists in France), is not really relevant. Oppression is oppression, whether it is being dealt out by foreigners, or by a strata of the said society. 2. These posters also seem to have no qualms about allying themselves with a highly questionable foreign regime, in order to fight their oppressor. This demonstrates that when under oppression, it is wise to take whatever allies you can get, even if they megalomaniacs. My apologies to those who feel that the poll offers too few options, but I feel that the main ones have been covered. I can't rightly include every option, including every act which you may be/may not be willing to commit against the regime. The poll would be three pages long. If you have a '3.25' opinion, it might be a good idea to round down and vote for option three. [ Friday, January 05, 2007 15:09: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Wednesday, January 3 2007 18:07 Profile Homepage #9 Zeviz: quote: I am not familiar with the exact text of Geneva Convention. Which of the actions I've listed are allowed by it? - attacking off-duty soldiers = Forbidden by Geneva Conventions. An off-duty/reserve soldier is not taking part in the conflict at the present, hence he is considered a civilian. - attacking military factories = Fine by the Geneva Conventions. - attacking railroads, bridges, and other infrastructure that can be used by both soldiers and civilians = Controversial. Witness Israel turning Lebanon's infrastructure to rubble. From what I understand, damaging infrastructure is not strictly forbidden, if the resulting damage to civilians is not excessive. It's been argued that Israel's destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure was excessive and unnecessary, and I'd be inclined to agree. - attacking power plants, machine shops, and other industry that has both military and civilian use = Same as above. - kidnapping/killing political leaders = Forbidden. Arresting them and subjecting them to a fair trial for war crimes is not. - kidnapping/killing relatives of leaders = Forbidden. - kidnapping/killing relatives of soldiers = Forbidden. - kidnapping/killing regular civilians = Forbidden, although some allowance is made for collaterol damage. Once again, 'excessive' collaterol damage is frowned upon. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:38 Profile Homepage #6 Zeviz, if you're confused by what I mean when I say 'Gentleman's War', think of the Geneva Conventions. Sure, they probably wouldn't exist in the alternative history I created, but use the Geneva Conventions when attempting to determine how one conducts a 'Gentleman's War'. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
How exactly does Trajkov stay sane? in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:34 Profile Homepage #4 I agree with Dikiyoba on this one. Trajkov stayed sane after using the Geneforge because he had an extraordinary strength of character and will. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:08 Profile Homepage #2 Drakey: The option of violent 'non-extremist' resistance is made available in Option 3. Hence my expression 'Gentleman's war'. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
A hypothetical scenario in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Wednesday, January 3 2007 16:57 Profile Homepage #0 I've decided to create a poll so that veteran Geneforgers can respond with their opinions on a hypothetical scenario. Let's assume that the following alternative history occured: World War II has concluded, and has resulted in a victorious Axis (Nazi Germany has conquered Europe, the Africas, and what was the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Imperial Japan has conquered all of the Pacific and much of Asia). Imperial Japan's occupation of the United States is as brutal (if not worse) as the occupation of China during World War II. American citizens live in constant fear of an oppressor who abducts American citizens for use in forced labour camps, and as lab rats for cruel experiments. At a whim, the Japanese invaders can execute any American citizen, without giving him a trial. American political parties are banned, and even the slightest resentment of the occupying force (or the thought of United States Independence) is labelled as treason, and brutally crushed. Now that I have set the hypothetical scenario, all that remains is for you to explain how you would respond to this Asian threat. [ Wednesday, January 03, 2007 17:23: Message edited by: Waylander ] Poll Information This poll contains 1 question(s). 43 user(s) have voted. You may not view the results of this poll without voting. function launch_voter () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=vote;pollid=GKDivqTXZIyS"); return true; } // end launch_voter function launch_viewer () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=view;pollid=GKDivqTXZIyS"); return true; } // end launch_viewer function launch_window (url) { preview = window.open( url, "preview", "width=550,height=300,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status,menubar=no,scrollbars,resizable,copyhistory=no" ); window.preview.focus(); return preview; } // end launch_window -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
War in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Wednesday, January 3 2007 16:23 Profile Homepage #6 I'd definitely choose the Rebellion over the Shapers. Viva La Rebellion! -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Ridiculous droppings in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Monday, January 1 2007 15:53 Profile Homepage #25 I remember boosting Luck in GF2, and getting two Roamertooth Bands (+2 to Fire Shaping) in a row, just outside the Magus Complex. Highly unusual, and quite a nice perk. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
If canisters were real... in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Monday, January 1 2007 14:52 Profile Homepage #101 Emperor Tug: quote: Times of Peace: Here is where my plans might actually be undeniably flawed. The Tullegolite Empire is designed to exist in a time of total war. You take away the war, you take away an enemy for my crazy followers to focus their energy on, and I can no longer guarantee stability. Hmm, I suppose it would be in my best interest, then, to drag out the war as long as possible. Shouldn't be hard at all. Suggestion: Read '1984' by George Orwell (if you haven't done so already, that is). Orwell elaborates on how perpetual war can be used to maintain order, and the current social hierarchy. Hence the slogan: "War is peace." -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
GF 3 Tier 4 Creations Overview in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Saturday, December 9 2006 16:04 Profile Homepage #12 For my own experience of GF3 (since I'm not really interested in number crunching): 1. Drakons are underpowered for their huge essence cost. A rather weak diamond spray, and a half-way decent physical bite. Remember that resistance to physical damage is rather common from the middle of the game onwards. Overall, not worth the essence. 2. Rotgroths are undoubtably the most effective battle creation. As has already been mentioned, they use acid to melee, not physical. This makes their strike hard to resist (except by other Rotgroths.) On the other hand, I never was fond of battle creations. Creations with missile attacks seem superior, as they don't waste action points moving up close to the enemy to strike them in melee. 3. Eyebeasts are quite good for their cost, although they have been nerfed since GF2. The fact that while their melee is weak, it has a nasty secondary effect, means that they aren't totally useless in close combat. Gazers have also been nerfed, although I'd argue that they are still worth their weight in essence. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Random Questions in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Friday, November 10 2006 04:51 Profile Homepage #22 SNM: quote: 1) Is it possible to get an ending for G1 in which you rejoin the shapers (after destroying the Geneforge) where they don't distrust you? No. If you stay loyal to the Shapers, they will always distrust you. Even if you don't use any canisters. quote: (ie, you don't get the "always wonder what might have been" thing). Similarly, is there a way to use the Geneforge without going insane? I never thought that the PC was 'insane' after using the Geneforge. He/she just doesn't tolerate insolence. And frankly, would you tolerate insolence if you were the most powerful being on the planet? But no, there is no way to stop yourself from going 'insane' after using the Geneforge. quote: 2) I played G1 as a Shaper and just started G2 as a Guardian. The fyora I created at the beginning really sucks (he misses his shots as often as not, and I don't think that ever happened in G1). Is this because I'm a Guardian or because in G2 fyoras suck? Both. A Guardian generally has a low Shaping ability. And a Fyora is only meant to be used in the early game. However, the Shaper class can make reasonably good Fyoras. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Factions in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Tuesday, October 3 2006 17:37 Profile Homepage #53 Emperor: quote: Chaos: The shapers always manage to make war in an orderly and efficient manner. That is conjecture. Jeff gives very little background on the history of Shaper warfare, so we really don't know the results of Shaper wars. What we have seen in previous Geneforge games is that the Shapers are methodical in their butchering of any humans or serviles who have even the slightest inkling of independent thought. For example, when the Shapers managed to conquer Medab, they razed it and the surrounding settlements. They either slaughtered the serviles/humans within, or carted them off as slaves. So while Shapers may not employ rogue creations, they still don't seem to have any qualm with killing or enslaving civilians. quote: Takers on the other hand, have a ‘destroy everything and worry about it later’ strategy. Everyone loses with this method. The Takers aren't interested in destroying everything, merely destabilizing the Shaper regime. They are very selective about where they release 'rogue' creations (which are often under the control of the Rebels). Rogues are released in areas near Shaper outposts, or on roads which Shaper armies would use to travel. quote: As for the innocent towns and civilian casualties, I'll admit that all wars have these, but usually they are accidental or at least regretted afterwards. How do you know that the Takers do not regret the deaths of innocent serviles and humans? quote: Destruction: I believe that the Takers wage war in a way that damages the land for years to come. An unfortunate side-effect when fighting an oppressive regime whose military might far exceeds your own. The Takers can't fight the Shapers via conventional warfare, due to their lack of Shaping skill and resources. Hence, they need to resort to asymmetrical warfare. Sun Tzu suggested this is his 'Art of War'. quote: While the shapers move in with controlled creations, wipe out the enemies and move on, the Takers are scarring the land in a colorful variety of ways. 'Scarring the land' is fanciful nonsense. quote: Sympathy: Who are these high ranking individuals that joined the rebels you speak of? The elderly mage from Island 1. Spharon from Dhonal's Isle, who was entrusted with a troupe of serviles. Another mage from Dhonal's Isle, who ambushed you at the pass. Corrie, from Island 4. quote: Lankan: The rebels on the second island were forces to form their own militia due to lack of shaper presence. The rebels on the second island were able to form their own militia due to the lack of Shaper presence. quote: If there were enough shapers there to keep the town safe (which there would have been if they were Tullegolites) that isolated incident would not have happened. Given the choice, people will take shaper protection over Taker ‘liberation’ any day. Again, your claim that people would take Shaper protection over Taker liberation is conjecture. It is strongly evidenced throughout the series that many humans and serviles would like to see nothing more than the collapse of the Shaper regime. In some cases, these individuals have joined with, or colloborated with, the rebellion. We also see numerous servants of the Shapers who are coerced into serving. They don't want to serve, they consider themselves autonomous beings, but they are too frightened to flee and attempt to challenge the Shapers. So overall, there are three types of humans/creations in Geneforge. 1. Humans/creations who genuinely prefer Shaper rule over that of the revolutionaries. These tend to be in the minority. 2. Humans/creations who despise the Shaper regime, and join the revolutionaries. In general, mainly creations (serviles), and a small proportion of humans join the revolutionaries. Serviles have a greater tendency to defect, as they are treated far worse than the humans (again, the 'slave' and 'peasant' analogy). 3. Humans/creations who despise the Shaper regime, but who lack the courage to rise up due to fear of Shaper retaliation. Many creations, and the majority of humans, fall into this group. quote: Protection: The point is that shapers protect their people No, the Shapers purposefully make their people defenseless, so that the people are: 1. Unable to resist their tyranny. 2. Forced to rely on them during disaster. If the Shapers genuinely desired the welfare of their people (including the serviles), they would allow them the right to defend themselves. This would include the right to form a well trained militia, as well as the knowledge required to defeat rogue creations. If the Shapers genuinely cared about the humans and creation,s they would not use them as meat shields during every conflict. quote: Analogy: There is no way you can get away with trying to compare the Shaper regime to Iran and the Takers to the rest of the (sane) world. As I mentioned previous, analogies aren't mirror images of the scenario in question, which is why they are analogies. However, the analogy was relevant to the following assertion: People who do not declare independence from the Shapers (ie. join the Takers) often do so out of fear of Shaper reprisal, not out of some affection for the Shaper regime. This is similiar to the situation in Iran. Many Iranian civilians do not stay in Iran out of love for their theocratic government. They stay because they fear that they (or their family) will be shot if they attempt to flee. quote: Serviles: I didn't mean that the Drakons force the serviles to fight. The point is, serviles were not meant to do battle, Unsupported conjecture on your behalf. Merely because serviles were not specifically created by the Shapers for battle does not change the fact that they are capable of defending themselves, and capable of holding their own against human counterparts. In fact, evidence suggests that if serviles are given the same combat training as a human, they should perform in battle just as well. quote: and the drakons giving them this option is very irresponsible of them. It is not irresponsible to allow independent, mature beings to choose their fate. The serviles are not coerced to fight. They want to fight, and had begun the resistance against the Shapers long before the drakons were even involved. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Factions in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Monday, October 2 2006 22:15 Profile Homepage #48 Dikiyoba: quote: The analogy doesn't work, because the Takers started the war. 1. False. The Takers did not 'start' this war. The Shapers did. It is an act of war to force a particular race into subservience via the use of force and coercion. The Takers are on the defensive, as they are fighting against Shaper oppression, for the right to be treated as equal, autonomous beings. 2. Even you were to argue (on technicalities) that the Takers did start the war (because they struck the first blow against a regime who would genocide them if it was aware of their existence), I fail to see why my analogy doesn't work. Merely because it isn't a mirror image of the situation in question doesn't invalidate the analogy. That's the reason why its an analogy. The principle I am attempting to put forward remains the same in both cases. Sometimes destruction is necessary to preserve freedom, equality and dignity. Merely because they use destructive means to achieve their goals does not nullify the legitimacy of their cause. Many resistance groups have struck the first blow against their oppressors, such as the Greeks against the Ottomans in a struggle for an independent Greece, or the Polish against the Russians after the partitions. quote: Didn't Lankan go to Diwaniya to ask for help in dealing with the rogues first, and only became a rebel after losing his temper because Diwaniya didn't do anything, though? Again, I fail to see the point. Lankan is rather hostile towards the Shapers, and clearly sympathizes with the Rebels. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
drakon question in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Monday, October 2 2006 20:47 Profile Homepage #10 Archy: quote: I suspect a certain amount of judicious re-writing of history went on between GF2 & GF3. Or perhaps the Drakons 'devolved'. Not enough selective pressure from a war with the Barzites, Awakened and Shapers... -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
batta Gamma? in Geneforge Series
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Monday, October 2 2006 20:37 Profile Homepage #5 SHHHH. Perhaps we can encourage the newbies to use the 'Search' Function... -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00

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