A hypothetical scenario
Pages
| Author | Topic: A hypothetical scenario |
|---|---|
|
Triad Mage
Member # 7
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 09:23
Profile
Homepage
Well, resistance is in my blood and my history, and I know that from my group of friends, I'd be one of the most likely to resist. I'd imagine Zeviz is the same way, but I don't know about anyone else. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 2759
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 09:50
Profile
Homepage
Good heavens, I'm the only one to vote for passive resistance. In real life, I think quite a number of people would choose this option. [ Thursday, January 04, 2007 09:59: Message edited by: Micawber. ] -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 10:21
Profile
You are the only one because people hold grand illusions as to what they would do. But when the time comes most won't. Talk is fine and all, but it is rarely backed up by action. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
|
Lifecrafter
Member # 7331
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 10:22
Profile
Homepage
I would probably stay in my room with some rubber tubing and plastic piping. Also an air compressor, a bucket of golf balls, a rubber sealer, a 2x4, and a quarterstaff. (Those few members who have been to the Spudtech website will know what I am talking about. ) I would probably take the defensive stand and defend my own territory. Aggressiveness is just too suicidal against such odds. -------------------- You Shall Die Laughing: http://www.worfthecat.ermarian.net/converted The Roost: www.roost01.proboards104.com. Birds of a feather flock together. Posts: 794 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 3442
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 10:27
Profile
Homepage
I'm thinking this is here because the Shapers and the Resistance or supposed to be Nazi Germany and Japan... Anyway, I think either 1 or 4... It depends on a lot of things - I'd describe myself as quite quixotic. Although, I also think Thuyrl has a good point... (yay a story!!) In secondary school (so when I was about 14 or 15), we were rushed to an emergency assembly and told that the school was under siege. Our teachers told us they wanted volunteers to try and find out where the people attacking where coming from, with the risk of certain death if found. About a dozen people out of 500 or so volunteered, myself included. Of course, we weren't under siege, and once outside, we volunteers were let in on the idea - it was something about War awareness or something they were trying to teach (and obviously it worked, since I forget the point :P ). Still, only about 2% of the population reacted in a way comparable to choices 3 and 4. And sure, maybe age is an issue, and maybe the scenario is different, but the fact remains that half of us didn't stand forward when asked to, even be people we supposedly respected. In fact, my school was bad about things like this - earlier on when we were 11 or so, we were told that there had been an outbreak of plague... -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 10:47
Profile
Thuryl, rather than castigate those who profess the desire to stand up and fight for freedom (yours and theirs) why not congratulate them and hope for success? Why must you provide doubt that either they will succeed or carry through with their mission? It doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than to further the cause of the invading forces. But you knew that, otherwise you wouldn't have wasted time posting the messages. -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 10:50
Profile
Homepage
quote: quote:Yeah, try telling this nonsense to the people of Vietnam. Or Algeria. Or anywhere that was forced to undergo a long occupation. The example occupations I used weren't even as brutal as this hypothetical one sounds. I think you all underestimate the resolve of humans. Lets take me as an example. I am not a fighter. Despite the things I say, I would piss my pants in a real war. I would never fight willingly in places like Iraq, Vietnam, or even in wars worth fighting, like World War II. However, everything changes when your way of life is under attack. If I can't live the way I want to, suddenly pissing my pants doesn't seem like such a bad option. I can safely say I would be willing to fight and die to preserve the way I live right now. Living under the will of a foreign nation is as good as living as living as a slave, and I will not be a slave. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 10:50
Profile
Homepage
quote:If those were either of the things that he doubted, this comment might make more sense. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 11:19
Profile
Homepage
Aran, in the analysis you posted on your blog, you are forgetting that the main factor in whether people chose to resist the occupation is their feelings about their old government and the occupying force. An illustration of that was a poll by Tullegolar where people's willingness to defend their country ranged from few people being willing to find another similar nation to almost everybody being willing to fight Martian invaders who want to enslave or destroy humanity. quote:That's because passive resistance works only against people with conscience. The occupiers described here have no problem sending people to death camps, or monstrous medical experiments, so they aren't going to hesitate to kill anybody trying to organize a demonstration. Your death wouldn't even succeed in encouraging others to join your cause, because if people weren't convinced by other atrocities, they will not be convinced by your death either. As for whether people saying that they would follow option 3.5 would go through with it, that might depend on their upbringing, as much as personality. If the simulation Nikki described in his post had been performed in a Soviet school, a lot more kids would have volunteered. (This is not necessarily a good thing, but some balance is needed between the extremes of being excessively militaristic and being unwilling to ever defend your country.) -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 2759
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 13:04
Profile
Homepage
quote:The point is not whether resistance works, but what methods are morally justifiable. Option 4 seems to me to be clearly immoral. Option 1 involves hypocritically pretending to agree with the occupying regime, so that's out as well. Option 3 is just as unlikely to succeed as 2 but involves violence. Therefore Option 2 is the preferred moral choice. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 14:33
Profile
It then becomes clear we don't all share the same morals. -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 15:08
Profile
Homepage
quote:And what percentage of the population was actively involved in those resistance movements? A small minority in every case. quote:We're all slaves to something. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Triad Mage
Member # 7
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 16:17
Profile
Homepage
quote:I can either disagree with this or point out that the things I'd consider myself a slave to, are all things that I would want anyway. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7472
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 18:43
Profile
Homepage
Option 3.25 is the one for me. Basically, I'd start an underground resistance, slowly picking off the invaders one-by-one. Maybe not as impressive as a blatant, out-in-the-open resistance, but I'd survive longer, and it would probably be more effective. quote:Firstly, I'm not sure a bunch of under-21-year-olds are going to help much in the Sudan (Recent polls and censuses have shown that the two leading age majorities on these boards are collage-age and teenagers). Secondly, why go off and fix other nations' troubles when we have crippling problems of our own right here in the good old U.S.A? The Bush Administration has seen to that. Thirdly, there's a lot of good to be done in our own country. We don't have to run off to a foreign country just to prove we're courageous, or to do good. And as for being a coward: I'm sure that people in the topic situation have a right to be somewhat cowardly, no? quote:I think it also depends on your ancestry. If there's violence in your ancestry, you're probably more likely to be violent yourself. I have more opinions on this subject, but it's getting off-topic as it is. quote:Well, war has been discussed quite a bit on this particular forum, so... -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 7276
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 19:40
Profile
A few things to keep in mind. Firstly, with any kind of resistance, passive or otherwise, a really brutal occupier has a simple way around it: reprisals. Speak to a crowd, and everyone who stays to listen to you disappears. If three soldiers die in an ambush, 30 citizens of the nearest village are shot. Support for the resistance would dry up fast! And the moral equation becomes a lot harder then; yes, you can say that they, not you, have just killed thirty of your neighbors, but it still doesn't feel right to do a beautiful, heroic, and futile act that dooms them. The Polish Uprising would be my model. That is to say, secretly train units for open warfare...but do not do any actual "resisting" until after the German and Japanese empires are locked in a death struggle; then field the secretly trained units and otherwise support the German side in the war - e.g., ambush convoys on their way to the front, when the Japanese have no time or resources to spare for the reprisals, and conduct espionage for the Germans. And keep that cell structure intact and those suicide pills handy. I don't call anyone a coward for picking another option, and I don't think any of us really knows how brave he is (or whether he can kill) until he actually faces the situation. [ Thursday, January 04, 2007 19:48: Message edited by: Alberich ] Posts: 63 | Registered: Tuesday, July 4 2006 07:00 |
|
Triad Mage
Member # 7
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 20:00
Profile
Homepage
That will eventually reach a breaking point, though. There's a portion of the population that figures if they might die for nothing as part of a reprisal, they might as well die for something and form/join a resistance. There's actually a movie coming out in a while about this in apartheid South Africa. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
|
Canned
Member # 7704
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 23:03
Profile
Tensions break out in a society when something is left unchecked and slowly rotting away. Violence must break out one day or another because we can't control our power and our emotions. BUT what about Europe i am sure that the furer would be killed for his madness communists would back up in the northern parts of russia and attack by up-rises in every country under german occupation we would speak german and be mind manipulated by nazis and don't like oppressing others for their faiths and their so called races every country in Europe would speak german an italian so what could be the world after that? BUT if the try negotiate option wouldn't work: The martian goes to war. Pepole are mostly conformists pepole that follow orders without thinking or thinking very little others are strong minded either are neglected by society or are chosen to be the light of society for a short time. [ Friday, January 05, 2007 12:01: Message edited by: upon mars ] -------------------- You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how . Posts: 312 | Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 7276
|
written Friday, January 5 2007 05:48
Profile
Drakefyre, true, the resistance would have to be held under iron discipline to stop frustrated hotheads from ruining everything before the time was ripe - it would need its own prosecutors and executioners, and in some ways would have to be as ruthless as the oppressors. (Rent The Informer with Victor McLaglen to see what that side of things might look like...or just to see a great performance.) Posts: 63 | Registered: Tuesday, July 4 2006 07:00 |
|
Canned
Member # 7704
|
written Friday, January 5 2007 11:57
Profile
I would say that no one is shure about what he is going to do in a violent society i would bend to it's violent rules? I don't know. And most pepole adapt to situations so that is why hitler dinot have a lot resistance is that most pepole are conformists pepole like us that won't be bothered by any big decision . [ Friday, January 05, 2007 12:04: Message edited by: upon mars ] -------------------- You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how . Posts: 312 | Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Friday, January 5 2007 14:55
Profile
Homepage
Wow, this thread has turned out to be quite a success. I think that most (if not all) posters here are aware as to what I am alluding to with my hypothetical scenario. What's interesting here is that a majority of individuals have chosen option 4, where you will do 'anything it takes' to resist oppression, no matter how unethical it may seem. And yet, it seems that when it comes to the issue of the Shapers vs. the Rebellion, posters seem to have very little sympathy for the Rebellion. Mostly because it is too bloodthirsty. Perhaps now that I've painted a analogy which is more relevant to our lives, people can at least be a little more sympathetic towards the Rebellion's perceived extremism. Why was Nazi Germany mentioned? It does NOT represent the Rebellion, as one poster suggested. More accurately, it represents the Drakon alliance. The serviles, humans and drayks of the Rebellion are often criticized for allying themselves with the megalomaniac Drakons (Nazi Germany), who may not be ethically superior to the Shapers (Imperial Japan). But as Emperor Tug pointed out earlier: quote:Many would say that the serviles/humans/drayks are merely exchanging one master for another. But that's not a given. It's not even really known whether the Drakons will be on top of the food chain when the war ends. What IS a given is that in their current condition, serviles, humans and drayks suffer under the complete and total control of an oppressive Shaper regime, and have done so for as long as they can remember. The crimes of Shaper rule against non-Shapers are well documented. When you're desperate, you get the help which you have available. Not the help which you'd necessarily want. Allying yourself with a megalomaniac is not an act of evil. It's an act of desperation. This has been demonstrated time and time again. A rather nice example is Poland. During the early 1800's, after the Partitioning of Poland between Austria, Prussia and Russia, the Polish served with distinction under Napoleon Bonaparte. They did so because Napoleon promised to do his best in order to carve a new Poland out of Europe. Sadly, due to Liepzig and Waterloo, he wasn't successful. During WW1, Poland was willing to support Germany in order to liberate itself from Russian rule. During WW2, they allied themselves with the Russians in order to liberate themselves from Russian rule. Quite simply, I do not see the Drakons as 'the' Rebellion, but a Nazi Germany. A necessary evil, which the Rebellion must (temporarily) ally itself with. They are powerful, but there are relatively few of them when compared to the rest of the Rebellion. Those in the front lines, those marching in rank and file, are serviles, humans, drayks, and rogue Shapers. They are more numerous, and if they truly wished it, they could shake off the Drakons like a horse shakes the flies away with its tail. No doubt people are going to start and nitpick my analogy. Yes yes, it's not 100% similiar. That's what makes an analogy an analogy. What is important is that it demonstrates that: 1. The majority of posters here appear to be willing to engage in methods of resistance which are 'extreme', when they are being held in thrall by a highly oppressive regime. Whether it is foreign, or an 'indigenous' strata of society (think the 'Inner Party' from 1984, or the Royalists in France), is not really relevant. Oppression is oppression, whether it is being dealt out by foreigners, or by a strata of the said society. 2. These posters also seem to have no qualms about allying themselves with a highly questionable foreign regime, in order to fight their oppressor. This demonstrates that when under oppression, it is wise to take whatever allies you can get, even if they megalomaniacs. My apologies to those who feel that the poll offers too few options, but I feel that the main ones have been covered. I can't rightly include every option, including every act which you may be/may not be willing to commit against the regime. The poll would be three pages long. If you have a '3.25' opinion, it might be a good idea to round down and vote for option three. [ Friday, January 05, 2007 15:09: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Friday, January 5 2007 15:15
Profile
Homepage
Alberich: quote:I suggest you read 'The Moon is Down' by John Steinbeck. He argues that when occupiers use the harsh tactics which you describe, support for the resistance would actually increase. Collective punishment only increases resentment amongst the occupied, and hence encourages resistance. Witness Israel's use of collective punishment against the Palestinians and Lebanese in order to 'suppress terrorism' (this is merely an example. And yet, we observe the opposite effect (this is merely used as an example, not to open a new point of discussion). The Nazis also employed collective punishment, to their detriment. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Friday, January 5 2007 15:16
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Waylander: quote:Can I nitpick? 45% is not "the majority". (Plus you have to take into consideration some people might have "voted" for option 3.5 by voting for option 4.) The majority of people say they would fight, certainly, but it's rather misleading to say that the majority of voters would do whatever it takes. But you've created an interesting discussion and tied it back into the game, so kudos from Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Friday, January 5 2007 15:25
Profile
Homepage
Dikiyobi: quote:45% can be a majority, if each of the other three options received less than 45% of the votes. If there are more than two options available, the majority can be less than 50%. Remember, Tony Blair was voted in on a majority of less than 50%. Perhaps the word 'majority' has a slightly different meaning in American politics (note: I'm Australian). Either way, Option 4 has received far more votes than Options 1, 2 or 3. That is what is important here. quote:We could quibble over this, but I think it's obvious that the poll does suggest that people will take extreme measures (which are often labelled as 'radical' by spectators) against extreme oppression. quote:Thanks! :D -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Friday, January 5 2007 15:45
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Waylander: quote:You're probably right. Dikiyoba just read that point with a "people who will take extreme measures vs. people who will not take extreme measures" perspective. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Friday, January 5 2007 16:31
Profile
Homepage
The word of the day is plurality: the most votes but still less than 50%. In your analogy, are the Shapers represented by Japan? This makes the Shapers looks far worse than they really are. For one, the Shapers aren't a foriegn government like the Japanese would be in America. Also, I don't think the Shapers treat the people nearly as bad as the Japanese in your description. I know I'm nitpicking, but that explains the contradiction in my coices. I would go with the Shapers in the Geneforge war, but I would go with the nation not invading me in the hypothetical real world war. According to your analogy, those are two different sides. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |