A hypothetical scenario
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Warrior
Member # 7276
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written Friday, January 5 2007 16:34
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Waylander, congratulations on the success of your topic! I really, really don't want to spoil it by bringing in a debate on the Israel/Palestine thing (I limit the amount of political arguing I do, and don't come to game boards for it), so I won't comment on that example. But the Germans have historically had a lot of success with this tactic - I read that Frederick Barbarossa, for example, on his way to the Crusade, had a couple of his envoys seized by the Byzantine emperor. His response was simple - to grab a nearby village and explain that delay in returning the envoys would be measured in lives. He got the envoys, and supplies to continue his march, pretty quickly. The French Resistance was heroic in its way, but really did not make France hard to occupy, nor did the resistance movements in other parts of Europe, in either war - except Yugoslavia, mainly because Tito's partisans didn't care whether the local civilians suffered or not. (I don't believe an American resistance of any size could be conducted on that basis.) The Guns of August will tell you about the large numbers of Belgian civilians "shot by the Germans" - but once the (valiant) Belgian military resistance broke, I've never heard that the Germans had serious trouble in occupied Belgium. No doubt the reprisals make the locals hate the invaders, but in the examples you described, the Japanese wouldn't be conducting a "hearts and minds" campaign in any case - it would simply be a matter of force and fear, and civilian reprisals would be an excellent tool for destroying (or reducing to tiny levels) an active guerilla resistance. That's why I favor the "Polish uprising" model. (Which still requires some unsavory allies.) I certainly agree with your basic premise - that in conducting warfare of any kind, there are great limits to how "cleanly" you can do it (which is one of the things that makes warfare horrible in the first place). Especially if you are considering the kind of allies you pick, in a world where the people who can actually help you aren't very nice. And the greater the enemy's advantages, the less scrupulous you can afford to be on that score. My problem with the analogy - the one that to me is fatal - is the nature of the ally. The Drakons aren't just personally powerful and inhumanly arrogant; they are constantly working to shape themselves and their successors into things that are even stronger (and doubtless more arrogant), in a way that the shapers are not. I'm a Windows guy, so please don't spoil GF4 for me, but I know the Drakons ended GF3 with the hope that the Ur-Drakons would soon be ready. And I don't see any reason for the process to stop there (let alone what happens if the Gazers get in on the self-shaping act, and why wouldn't they?). Indeed, that is part of the cold, scary feeling that these games give me - the fact that if you leave these creatures alone for a few years, they don't just get a little older; they get a lot stronger. And a lot easier to replace, if they use geneforges to train their troops from novice to master in a matter of minutes... I mean, in your German/Japanese example, the American resistance (if it used the methods I recommend) together with the war overseas might finally break the Japanese ability to fight. I don't see how the Germans could then go on to occupy the USA - they would also be drained by the struggle, and everyone would be licking his wounds for a while. Given what we know about US productivity, time would be on our side in preparing for any future struggle (as it arguably was during most of the Cold War). With the Drakons, by contrast, time is always on their side, in a major way. Thus, given the choice, the Drakons are the tyrants I would eliminate first. [ Friday, January 05, 2007 16:42: Message edited by: Alberich ] Posts: 63 | Registered: Tuesday, July 4 2006 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, January 5 2007 16:58
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Waylander, the problem with your conclusion is that responces of most people fall into the wast area between "will do anything, including blowing up children at restaraunts" and "fighting only proper battles between uniformed armies". These people chose randomly between options 3 and 4 of your poll, so in reality the number of people who would chose the most extreme option is probably much lower. If you want to draw comparisons with Geneforge situation, you need a more refined poll, which I think I'll make. I think following categories should do: 1. No resistance. 2. Unarmed resistance doomed to failure. 3. Fighting only proper battles between armies. (Already failed, otherwise you wouldn't be conquered.) 4. Trying to minimize enemy's civilian casualties, even at the risk to own fighters. 5. Doing whatever it takes to destroy military objectives, including military hospitals and bases where soldiers live together with families. 6. Attacking civilians just to "stir things up". 7. Torturing children, spreading deseases among civilian population, etc. Option 6 would be equivalent to the behavior of Rebels in the Geneforge series. Does anybody have any suggestions before I make the new poll? PS (Off-topic.) Waylander, if you can't resist discussing Israel, please tell me how Australia would respond if a group of people started blowing up restaraunts and dance clubs, demanding control over the country? (Palestinian suicide bombers come from groups like Hamas that don't accept any solution short of complete destruction of Israel.) -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Friday, January 5 2007 17:05
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Emp: quote:Thanks for the term. Although Aussies and the British do use the term 'majority' to describe the largest proportion, even if said proportion is less than 50%. quote:Not really. - Imperial Japan uses the occupied Americans in cruel experiments. The Shapers use creations in cruel experiments. - Imperial Japan does not allow the occupied citizens to form any political movement, or voice their desire for independence. The Shapers do not allow the thought of independence from Shaper rule to even enter the heads of the non-Shaper humans and their creations. Needless to say, a political party consisting of creations is out of the question. - Occupied Americans have no rights. Humans and serviles have no rights, even to that of a fair trial. If a Shaper wishes to dispossess you of your home and your possessions, tough titty. If a Shaper takes a dislike to you and wishes to vapourize you, tough luck. - Imperial Japan uses extreme brutality to enforce its rule. The Shaper government employs extreme brutality to enforce its rule. - Imperial Japan possesses an elitist attitude, where it considers the Japanese man superior to all other races. Likewise, the Shapers consider themselves superior to all non-Shapers. In fact, I can't really detect any noticable difference between my Imperial Japan, and the Shaper Regime. quote:1. The above is debatable. Did the Shapers establish their order by invading the two major continents, and tearing the land from the hands of the indigenous, non-Shaper inhabitants? 2. I've explained why the distinction between 'foreign oppression' and 'indigenous oppression' is irrelevant. My hypothetical scenario was established to demonstrate that under severe oppression, one is willing to employ desperate measures in order to resist and refuse. WHO the oppressor is is incidental to my contention. Oppression is oppression, whether your oppressor is black or white, foreigner or countryman. quote:Would you go with the Shapers if you were a servile? What about a non-Shaper human? Would you aid a regime which has a long history of oppressing and intimidating your kind? You might claim that at least Shaper society is stable. On the surface, that may seem a valid objection. However, Ancient Egypt and Nazi Germany were also a stable societies. Unemployment was at a record low, law and order dominated, and society ran smoothly. However, I doubt that the Egyptian slaves would have smiled when you reassured them that 'at least you have a job, and a place in the current society'. And I'm sure that it would have been of little consolation to the Jews if you told them "Well, by accepting your gassing without resistance, you are ensuring that Germany remains stable", as they were being led to the gas chambers. An orderly society is not necessarily a desirable social order. And I think it is debatable as to whether the Shaper society is even orderly, given that they are responsible for the creation of the Rebellion. How anyone can support the Shaper regime when it in fact created the anarchy which they claim to detest is contradictory. quote:You're apparently confused, and are unintentionally obfuscating the issue as a result. The question here isn't whether you would assist an invader, but whether... 1. You would employ severe means to overthrow a regime (either indigenous OR foreign) which oppressed your particular strata of society. For instance, would your opinion change if I substituted 'Imperial Japan' for the ruling white elitist class, while I specified that the rebellion consisted of the oppressed blacks (assuming that the individual answering my question is also black)? 2. You would ally yourself with another group suffering for megalomania in order to fight your current oppressor. Does it really matter WHO your oppressor is? Would the severity of your resistance change if your oppressor was not a foreigner? Think carefully about this. [ Friday, January 05, 2007 17:09: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Councilor
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written Friday, January 5 2007 17:16
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Originally by Zeviz: quote:8. Attempt to flee/escape. (Which should go between 1 and 2, really.) Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Friday, January 5 2007 17:22
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Zeviz: quote:I'm not. You are attempting to push me into discussing it, however. In order to prevent the derailing of this topic, I won't respond to any attempt to open a discussion relating to the Israel vs. Palestine conflict. quote:1. Quite simply, I don't agree that posters have 'chosen randomly'. Quite the contrary, the posters have chosen the option which is most similiar to their actual opinion. 2. If a potential voter feels that my poll does not include a viewpoint similiar to their own, they can quite easily abstain from voting, and merely express their option in this thread. The below 7 poll options you suggested are not necessary... quote: -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Friday, January 5 2007 17:28
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Dikiyobi: quote:That's passive resistance, especially when you compare it with the Geneforge scenario. Serviles and humans can't 'escape' Shaper territory, unless they take an active part in the Rebellion. And if they take any part in the Rebellion (even a non-violent role), they are engaging in resistance to the Shaper regime. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Councilor
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written Friday, January 5 2007 18:20
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Originally by Waylander: quote:Also, 9. Other. (Please post to describe it.) quote:I would never vote for passive resistance, but I might vote for escaping. That makes them different. Passive resistance is selfless and basically futile. Escape is more selfish but has a chance of success for the individual. I'm not entirely sure where one would try to escape in either scenario, but it's unlikely that all of the western hemisphere is tightly controlled by Japan or that all of the Shaper lands are overrun with fighting. It would be harder for creations to escape than humans, but there was still a drayk in the crystal cavern in G2 a century after they were banned and hunted down. Sucia Island might even be a viable option now that everyone's come and gone. And it's Dikiyoba, not Dikiyobi. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, January 5 2007 18:44
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quote: quote:Your comparison of Israel with Nazi Germany is about as insensitive as the Pope's remarks about Islam, or those Danish Mohammed cartoons. If you don't understand why those annoying Jews got so offended, please stop for a moment and think of what it sounds like when you bring up Israel as the only other example in a thread that talks about Nazi Germany (who attempted to exterminate the Jews, among other atrocities), Imperial Japan, and Geneforge Shapers (whom you consider to be equivalent of the two RL powers). The implication of this comparison is that that a life of 1 Palestinian is worth more than lives of 1000 Jews, several thousand Russians, and 1000 Chinese, among other victims of Axis powers. [ Friday, January 05, 2007 18:54: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, January 5 2007 19:06
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There is a huge difference between when the oppressors are outsiders and when they are your own government. I suppose your right in that, if the American government itself was being oppressive like the Japanese one your describing, I would probably still revolt. The difference is, since I'm revolting against my own people, I would not pull out all stops. I would not want to hurt civilians and such because that would only lessen support for the rebellion itself. I would be much more tactful in my choice of targets when revolting against my own government, because it is a much more delicate situation than throwing off a foreign invasion. Do not say there is no difference, people would much sooner support an indigenous psycho dictator than a foreign anything. In the Geneforge war, I assume I'm a non-shaper human, because that is as close as it gets to a control group. Weighing the options, oppression under insane chaotic drakons or oppression under strict orderly Shapers, I'll always take the latter. The Shapers did not create the rebellion, why would you say that? Even if they did, how does that make the rebellion a better choice? I’ll take the evil I know over the evil I don’t know. Most people will. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
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written Friday, January 5 2007 19:13
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I think that it's important to differentiate humans and creations under Shaper rule. Humans are self-governing, with an elite class of Shapers (who are human). There are human mayors in every town, they're the main merchants, etc. Then there are the creations. Originally, only serviles were the sentient creations. Their situation was basically equivalent to slavery in the US. Somehow renegade Shapers began shaping Drayks, who began shaping Drakons, who began shaping Gazers and Eyebeasts. Really, they don't want to be a part of Shaper society. Most sane drayks just want to be able to live in peace apart from the Shapers. So really, the only creations we're dealing with are serviles, who want to be accepted by Shapers and treated the same as humans. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
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written Friday, January 5 2007 19:36
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Was it rogue shapers who made the Drayks, or was it that the mainstream shapers used to make them, then learned the error of their ways? (I mean, they stopped shaping Drayks and banned the practice; not that they reformed completely.) I thought it was the latter - which points up one of the main distinctions I draw. The Shapers, because they do stay human and refuse to shape themselves into madness, can make decisions like that...I have more hope for the future with them. Posts: 63 | Registered: Tuesday, July 4 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
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written Friday, January 5 2007 19:52
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It's a bit of both. The really old drayks are from before the ban against them came into being, and the younger ones are either shaped from rogue shapers or born to older drayks. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
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written Friday, January 5 2007 19:55
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You're right, Alberich; there were a couple of references in G4 to the fact that drayks were designed by the Shapers and Barred only after they were found to be too independent for the Shapers' liking. Of course, it's not clear that resolving to exterminate every drayk in existence was the best response; so far, it's only succeeded in making the drayks implacably and violently hostile to Shapers. [ Friday, January 05, 2007 19:58: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 00:46
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Emperor: quote:And yet there is very little difference when it comes to oppression. Oppression is oppression, not matter who is dealing it out. I'm doubt that you'd find it much consolation if it was a countryman attaching electrodes to your testicles, instead of a foreign occupier. Also note that your phrase 'your own government' is a little deceiving. I seriously doubt that a government which engages in such crimes of humanity was democratically elected by the people (and no, Hitler was not democratically elected, contrary to common misconception). Hence, to call it 'YOUR government' is highly misleading. Especially since Shapers aren't representative of the citizens they lead (non-Shaper humans and Creations). quote:That's rather reassuring. I was a little concerned that you didn't have the spirit of your forefather revolutionaries in you. After all, American revolutionaries fought against their own government, hence committing High Treason. quote:Would you be willing to hurt civilians if they supported the corrupt regime? Let's revert to my 'whites and blacks' scenario. Assuming that you are a black slave in a white dominated country who maintains control with brutality similiar to that of Imperial Japan, would you be willing to harm any white civilian, or any blacks who collaborate with the white regime, if it aided your struggle for liberation? quote:I agree that in some instances, terrorism and extreme acts of violence merely detract from your cause. However, you will note that I carefully worded Option Four: "I would engage in a 'dirty' war of resistance against the invaders, employing any acts of resistance which have strategic value in destabilizing the occupying regime, no matter how ethically unsound they may seem." In otherwords, Option 4 does not necessarily require for you to support senseless acts of terrorism which detract from your cause. All it states is whether you would be willing to commit acts of terror if it had a net benefit effect to your resistance. Would you be willing to kill civilians which supported the corrupt regime which you are fighting against, if the act resulted in a more successful resistance effort? quote:The above is a strawman argument. You've obviously misunderstood. I never claimed there was no difference between a foreign power, and a tyrannical ruling strata of society in your own country. Indigenous inhabitants often tend to be more outraged when occupied by a foreign power, due to a human's ability to feel a sense of nationalism. However, I did claim that this difference was incidental when it came to one of my contentions. And that contention is that rationally, oppression is oppression, plain and simple. Merely because your own government is practicing it, instead of a foreign power, does not make such acts of barbarity more palatable. In fact, I'd argue that it is far worse when your countryman oppresses you, instead of a foreigner. You'd expect better from a comrade. quote:Control group? Huh? Are you treating a highly complex political and sociological situation as a science experiment? Nevertheless, each group in Geneforge has its own interests and goals, and you need to justify why non-Shaper humans should be considered as a 'control' group. quote:1. Drakons are insane? I'd disagree. They just seem like reptilian forms of Barzhal. However, the hatred for creations is substituted for a hatred (and admiration) for Shapers. 2. Would I prefer rule under Drakons? I don't really know, as they haven't been given the chance to form a government in peacetime. They are pretty brutal when fighting a war. But then agian, who isn't? But that's irrelevant, because as the matter stands, the drakons don't oppress diddly squat, and they most likely never will, as the Rebellion consists of far more than just the Drakons. Presently, the Shapers hold almost total control, and oppress all that is not a Shaper. So you essentially have a choice between CONTINUING to remain under Shaper oppression, or POSSIBLY ending up Drakon rule. As you yourself said, if you were under oppression, you would seek aid from Nazi Germany. After all, you couldn't fight Nazi Germany while under the bootheel of Imperial Japan. Why are you suddenly changing your tune? What's the difference between 'insane' Drakons, and megalomanic Nazi Germany? 3. Even if your claim that "Shaper society is orderly" was accurate, it is still a laughable claim. After all, all that is required to maintain such order is the deprivation of basic human rights, the suppression of all free and independent thought, and the practicing of cruel and inhumane experiments. That's not so bad, right? :rolleyes: As I see it, there are two major questions here: 1. "Can an orderly society exist in which human rights are respected, and creations are awarded equal rights?". I believe that the answer here is a resounding YES. However, if this is to happen, the Shaper regime must be deposed and replaced with a new government. The Takers were right in this aspect. If Creations are to ever be treated with any respect or dignity, the Shaper regime must first be scattered to the wind. 2. "Can the Rebellion produce the society I outlined in Qu 1.?" Again, I believe that answer here is yes. There will definitely be anarchy and chaos during the transition from a Shaper regime to a Free Republic, but that is the trademark of any revolution. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. The Drakkons will definitely make forming a democratic Free Republic a headache, but I think it's reasonable to say that cooler heads will prevail. The younger generation of serviles, drayks and humans seem to be a pretty rational bunch. quote:Let's look at this objectively. The Shapers were the major contributors to the Rebellion, because they: - Abandoned the serviles on Sucia, hence producing unchecked Shaper resentment, and resulting in the formation of the Takers (the 'seeds' of the Rebellion'). - Abandoned the drayks on Sucia, and declared them 'Barred' Creations after realized that they had created something that they couldn't control. This pretty much forced a rogue Drayk - Servile alliance. - Engaged in almost unchecked research, which they left unguarded. - Allowed one of their own members to get his grubby hands on this forbidden research (Barzhal). Many Shapers defected, and allied with Barzhal. As a result, extreme power was put into the hands of the serviles-drayk alliance, and the Drakon was born. - Due to their stubborness, inaction, and refusal to compromise with a new political power, the Shapers allowed the Rebellion to grow and further feel justified in a war against the Shapers. quote:You've just missed the clue train. In my previous post, I pointed out that the only real reason put forward in support of the Shapers is that they are a stable, orderly, efficient regime. However, nothing could be further from the truth. It was Shaper inaction, arrogance, brutality and stubborness which triggered, and was the main contributor, to the formation and fermentation of the Rebellion, and the anarchy which now sweeps through Shaper ruled territory. The anarchy observed in the Geneforge series is prime evidence that the Shaper regime has [b]failed.[b] Their way of life no longer works, and the creations and humans are beginning to realize this. If the Shaper regime was stable, orderly and efficient (as you claim), then they wouldn't be in such a mess. quote:Then you'd need to explain the vast number of revolutions which have occured over the centuries. I can just imagine the WWII French denying the assistance of the Allies as they were being led to the gas chambers. "Nope, sorry, but we don't want your help. We'll take the evil we know over the evil we don't." What you need to realize is that the beginning of the end of the Shaper regime has come. Geneforge 1 contained a classic quote, which describes the entire series. "You can't unring a bell." This quote doesn't just apply to the forbidden Shaper knowledge which has been leaked out to anti-Shaper factions. It also applies to the Rebellion in general. It has been demonstrated that creations and humans are capable of gaining and maintaining independence, as well as being able to hold own against the Shapers. If the Rebellion were utterly crushed tomorrow, the seed of Rebellion would remain, to spring forth again and again. Thanks to the events on Sucia Island, both Creations and humans know that they can function as dignified and independent beings. And while this notion remains, the Shapers are doomed to eventual defeat. You can't unring a bell. Ideas never die, no matter how many people you kill. [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 01:01: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 01:06
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Zeviz: quote:I couldn't care less if you find my example 'insensitive'. I merely made a factual observation, and that was that Israel makes systematic use of collective punishment in order to quell dissent. And all you've been doing is attempting to pick a fight, merely because I dare to mention Israel. Since when was using Israel as example forbidden in these forums? Am I breaking any rules? If so, please quote which ones. Otherwise, if you have a problem with my posts, you're welcome to ignore them. I wouldn't consider it a huge loss if you refused to respond. [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 01:14: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 07:15
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I wouldn't call it a factual observation either. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 12:24
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Waylander: I would make the argument that the American founding fathers were not, in fact, fighting against their own government. The colonies had no representatives in parliament, and thus they were the equivalent of being ruled by a foreign government. As for your black and white scenario. Of course I would be willing to kill whitey in that situation. But now your just altering your original scenario to fit your argument. In the original scenario, my positions remain the same. As for option 4 attacking only targets of ‘strategic value’, just one question: how am I supposed to ‘strategically’ encourage prostitution? Control Group: Non-shaper humans make up the biggest fraction of the population. Creations are practically defaulted to be rebels if they can think freely. And shapers are far too unpredictable to be any sort of reference. Plus, the non-shapers humans are as close as you get to humans in the real world, and since our debate consists of issues from both worlds, they are the logical choice. quote:Uh, Barzahl was insane. But Tullegolar, insane is a relative term. No, Barzahl was quite insane. quote:Everything in the game suggests otherwise. It is made clear in Geneforge 2 through 4 that drakons run everything and treat serviles and drayks like crap. As for consistency, sure there are all kinds of rebels, but all but the drakons get crushed by shapers, and the drakons don’t even try to help them. At least the Shapers make an effort to protect towns with civilians in them. As for help from Nazi Germany. This is another case where it makes a huge difference whether or not your oppressors are foreign. It's one thing to use a foreign nation like Germany to throw of a foreign invasion of another; Japan. However, I would not ask Germany to intervene in a civil war against my own government. Huge difference. That would only be asking for trouble. If Germany is fighting Japan, that will give you a chance to get back on your feet as your own nation. If you ask them to play a part in a civil war, however, they might not want that part to end when the war does. Do you understand the difference yet? quote:I object to this description of the Shaper regime. People are allowed to live freely, trade freely, and even practice magic freely. No experiments are practiced on the human population. The Shapers keep the world safe from what would otherwise be a horrifying wasteland if shaping were out of control. All they ask in return is total control over the shaping aspect of the world, nothing more. I fail to see the oppression people always speak of. Saying the Shapers are responsible for the rebellion is a stretch. Saying that many shapers allied with Barzahl is just incorrect. You keep saying that the Shaper regime has failed, but look at the games again: they are winning the war against the rebellion! Why? The drakons are too busy fighting amongst themselves and the human are to disordered to put up real resistance to them. The PC aside, the Shaper regime is better than the rebellion in every way, the only thing the rebellion had going for them was the element of surprise, and that is gone now. Saying that they have failed and so the rebellion must be superior is just crap. quote:They knew the Germans better than the English? The allies were evil? This is a terrible example... it makes no sense whatsoever. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 21:25
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Emperor: quote:And tell me, do creations and/or non-Shaper humans have any representatives in the ruling body? From what I understand, the government consists solely of Shapers. If we accept your logic, we must conclude that both human non-Shapers, and Creations, are being ruled by what is the equivalent of a foreign government, which has not been democratically elected. The more you continue talking, the deeper you dig your own grave. quote:Interesting. You'd be willing to commit treason by killing your own people? Or are you willing to admit that perhaps whites aren't your own people? Perhaps they are a different strata of society, whose interests conflict with your own strata of society. Careful, you're ever so close to further justifying acts of extremism against different stratas of your own society. quote:No. I'm altering the scenario, since you seem to be hung up on irrelevancies. While the Shaper's are indeed part of Shaper society, they are in a different strata from both non-Shaper humans and Creations. They may as well be considered a foreign force. Which is what I attempted to demonstrate by the 'blacks vs. whites' example. I'd say that the Shaper society's hierarchy resembles the one observed in "1984". Inner Party ('Aristocracy') = Shapers Outer Party ('Peasants') = Non-Shaper humans Proles ('Slaves') = Creations quote:You're nitpicking. The question here isn't whether prostitution would have any strategic value. The question here is assuming that encouraging prostitution DID have strategic value, would you be willing to engage in that act? Quite simply, I'm merely attempting to gauge 'how far' the audience would go when attempting to fight a regime. I actually pilfered part of that quote from Question 4 from the novel '1984' (by George Orwell), a book which I have continually suggested you read in order to shed some light on my manner of thought. quote:1. Unsupported assumption. 2. Merely being the 'biggest fraction' of a population is not a justification for designating that faction the 'control group'. quote:So wouldn't it make more sense to use Creations as a baseline? Personally, I don't think that any strata of society can be designated the 'control group'. Each strata has different (and often conflicting) goals. quote:Nonsense. The non-shaper humans are not the closest your can get to humans in the real world. The non-Shaper humans represent a strata of Shaper society, which is equivalent to the peasants in Roman society. quote:The Drakons dominate very little. In fact, they generally seem to be confined to the research halls, whereas the rest of the Rebellion is spread throughout the lands. If it so suited the drayk-human-servile portions of the Rebellion, they could quite easily depose the Drakons. But it wouldn't suit their interests to do so. Much better to do so once the war is won, and a Free Republic is to be established. quote:A Sergeant generally treats the soldiers he commands like crap. Hell, the Allies used many of their footsoldiers as cannon fodder (D-Day and Gallipoli come to mind). Treating someone 'like crap' doesn't exactly amount to oppression. Also note that the vast majority of Rebel Lands are administrated by serviles and Drayks, not Drakons. quote:By live freely, do you mean living in perpetual fear, and slavish obedience, to the Shaper regime? Where even an apprentice Shaper can order about experienced mages, quartermasters, and human captains? quote:Don't delude yourself. Given that the Shaper regime can quite easily confiscate the goods of a merchant on a whim, I wouldn't say that free trade exists in the Shaper Empire. quote:Complete and utter nonsense! It's stated many times throughout the series that what magic non-Shaper humans can practice is tightly regulated by the Shaper regime. It fact, it's one of the reasons that non-Shaper mages are so bitter towards the Shaper regime. quote:They are practiced on Creations. You know, sentient beings. You haven't forgotten about that, have you? Then again, people tend to forget about the slaves/lower class. quote:Again, you're wrong. The Shapers have not kept the world safe, otherwise rogues wouldn't be such a threat to the citizens of their Empire. quote:No. All they ask in return is complete and utter obedience from both creations, and non-Shaper humans. The Shapers control far more than just the 'Shaping Aspect' of the world. quote:Open your eyes. quote:That's not a very effective rebuttal to a statement which I have supported with numerous examples. quote:Are they? From where I stand (having not played GF4), the Rebellion continues to grow stronger and stronger, despite the best efforts of the Shapers to hamper it. If the Shaper regime were truly as orderly and efficient as you claim, then: 1. The Rebellion wouldn't exist in the first place. 2. The Rebellion wouldn't have been allowed to ferment, and grow to become such a significant threat. 3. Anarchy would not exist in the Shaper Empire. quote:I don't remember claiming that the Rebellion is a ruling body is superior to the Shaper regime, precisely because the Rebellion hasn't yet established a new order. quote:It makes perfect sense. The French knew that they were suffering under the Germans. They weren't aware of what liberation would entail for France. Hence, according to the saying you continue to make use of, the French would have been better off accepting the devil they know (German rule), instead of the devil they don't (Liberation, and possible anarchy and takeover). -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 21:40
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Geeze a lot written since I have been gone so excuse me if I miss anything or refer to anything that seems many posts ago. Please hurt me, because I am much closer to ET's opinion than to Waylander's. Of course I see some holes in his reasoning, but I see holes in Waylander's too. Shapers do not want you to speak out against them and may be harsh, but people (humans) flourish under them. There are good living standards for humans and trade is great. Everyone is safe except for the occasional accident. Drakons ARE represive and regard all as inferior to them. Shapers are humans and capable of evolution and adaptation, but Drakons only evolve in the way opposite to what is good for us "lesser" beings. The Shapers have shown that they are getting less and less dogmatic (see how they no longer have arenas). Want to use history to explain things? Heres one thing that you should know if you took AP Euro: The Japanese became what they were because of Western Imperialism and its harshness. Who's to say that they would not follow the path of the Western nations and eventually relinquish or lower their grip? You would basically be arguing that the Japanese are worse people if you don't even entertain the thought. The "all gloves off" approach to the rebellion in America would probably lead to America just replacing Japan and a vicious cycle ensuing. I'm tired, just got home and will post more on this when I'm thinking more clearly. Please point out anything you see as a mistake in my post. I was writing this post when Waylander posted so I didn't respond to what he said. Waylander: Your views on the rebellion may very well change once you see G4. Segregation and total disregard for all lives other than Drakons ensue in it. Still tired... write more later. [ Saturday, January 06, 2007 21:47: Message edited by: Retlaw May ] -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 21:58
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Well, it explains a lot that you haven't played GF4. It explains a lot about the rebellion, and you get the impression that humans, serviles, and even drayks will be worse off with the Drakons than with the Shapers. Tullegolar's most recent post is basically how I feel as well. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 22:01
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Just a bit of nitpicking I'd like to do, Waylander. quote:If that was true, there would be a lot more civilian casualties. quote:Not true. While serviles don't have rights, outsider humans do. And shapers don't wantonly kill. One of the keys to their rule is that they look flawless from the outside. If they started randomly butchering everyone, this would soon fade. Also, shapers tend to use their ability of demanding possessions sparingly, and I have yet to hear of a shaper taking someone's house. quote:That should read "The Shaper government employs extreme brutality to enforce its rules on shaping." They guard their power carefully, and for good reason. Look at what a mess it can cause in the wrong hands. But they don't, in 99 times out of 100, apply extreme brutality for no good reason. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, January 6 2007 22:56
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Black and White: Like I said, a whole new scenario entirely. This time it is not a matter of revolting against your own government, it's a matter of being a damn slave! There is a huge difference between being a slave in a racist society and living under an oppressive government. You keep making analogies that don't make any sense. 1984: I've read it, thanks. I don't understand the relevance. I can understand the analogy between the Shapers and the Party (good one), but I don't get how any of that relates the the oppressive Japanese regime in your example. The Party rules it's people by harping on nationalism, something the Japanese would not have in America. You still haven't expressed understanding of the vital difference between fighting an invading force and fighting an oppressive domestic regime. Do you get it yet? Control Group: "Unsupported assumtion." Are you kidding? "So wouldn't it make more sense to use Creations as a baseline?" How does making someone more prone to join a certain faction the control group make any sense at all? Sure they represent a stratum (which is the singular form of strata, by the way), and that is the stratum of the common people! Aren't we looking at what common people would do in these situation? Is there something I'm missing here? quote:Uh, have you played the games? Please, humor me by explaining this statement. quote:You can't keep saying I make unsupported claims when you keep saying things like this. You see freelance mages all the time in the games, where have you been? All kinds of people can teach you magic for a price, it's only when you bring up shaper training that things get complicated. Creations: I'm glad we agree on the creations to slaves analogy. That one actually makes sense. Since there are no slaves in your original scenario, any argument you make concerning creations is now irrelevant. Wasteland: You do realize that the rebellion did not always exist, yes? The Shapers kept the world safe from rogues and crap for years before this all started. Just because they are fighting to bring the world back to order once again doesn't mean that they are incapable of keeping the world from falling into chaos in the first place. You can't ignore all those years of peace just because there is war now. They may be indirectly responsible for the rebellion, but give them a break. Shaping is something so unpredictable that a single man can become a huge threat, the fact that the Shapers held off a rebellion of this scale for such a long time is a testimony to the strength of their order. quote:Whew, now some of the nonsense you've been saying can be excused. Hate to spoil it for you, but the rebels are losing as of Geneforge 4. Your character is in the situation where he can try to salvage it by meeting with the distant and racist drakons on the other side of the world (they are the only ones not getting their asses handed to them by the Shapers) or you can jump ship and join the oppressors. Don't worry, you find all that out in the first five minutes, I didn't really spoil anything. quote:I'll just ignore the obvious fact that this statement makes no sense and go back to my earlier argument. You are mixing up two different scenarios again. In the original scenario (as well as the France/Germany one) you are being invaded by a foriegn power! The "devil you know" saying only works when your talking about an indigenous regime. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 00:56
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Emp: quote:The analogy makes perfect sense when tied in with my main contention. The main contention: Option 4 may be feasible, even when the government/stratum of society that you are fighting against is NOT foreign. Hence, the distinction of 'foreigner/indigenous ruler' is incidental in some cases. As you yourself have admitted, you would employ Option 4 (No holds barred) against the white regime, despite the fact that it is an indigenous (not foreign) government. quote:You've given no indication that you have in the past. Which is rather annoying, as I would have used analogies from '1984', which I find far more applicable to Shaper society. I succumbed to utilizing an Imperial Japan hypothetical, because: 1. Very few people have read '1984', whereas anyone worth their salt knows basic WWII history. 2. Knowing that most posters here are American, I wanted to involve them on an emotional level. Granted, the Imperial Japan hypothetical isn't as accurate a portrayal of Shaper society as '1984' is, but it does the job, all the same. No analogy is perfect, especially in this case, where Jeff has invented an entire political order from scratch. quote:INNER PARTY. ;) quote:I used it to demonstrate that a different stratum of society is identical in nature to a 'foreign' force in the eyes of another stratum of society, if their aims are in conflict, and one oppresses the other. Ergo: It is possible that while your oppressors are indigenous, they may behave in a manner which makes the 'foreigner' distinction incidental. quote:It makes sense because Creations behave in a predictable way, whereas the humans and Shapers tend to be more complex creatures, and hence have varying alliances. A human mage may feel resentment towards the Shapers due to the overt control exerted over them, whereas a wealthy merchant may feel quite happy with the Shaper regime. quote:I was never looking at what 'common' people would do in this situation, but as to how those severely oppressed would respond. Given that Creations suffer by far the most under the Shaper regime, it would make more sense if they were used as the baseline when it comes to determining how one reacts to Shaper oppression. quote:Given that the Drakons were few and far between in GF 2 and GF 3, whereas the serviles, drayks and rogue Shapers performing most of the militant work, it doesn't seem like such a stretch to assume that they could overthrow the Drakons. If it suited them to do so, that is... Of course, this doesn't take GF 4 into consideration. Given that I didn't create this thread in the GF 4 forum, I'm assuming that it is reasonable that post GF 3 events should not be mentioned. quote:Freelance mages? Are you kidding? Freelance mages are under extreme scrutiny by the Shapers. For Christ's sake, the Shapers extreme control of all magic is mentioned several times during GF 2 and GF 3. The rebel mage on Greenwood Isle complains bitterly about such harsh control. A dialog box that pops up when you enter the School of Magery in Dhonal's Keep makes it quite clear that the Shaper's have very tight control over who becomes a mage, and what spells they can learn. quote:If by original scenario, you mean the Imperial Japanese scenario, may I point out that the occupied Americans are equivalent to the slaves of Imperial Japan? quote:Umm, yes. Given that I asserted that the Shapers were responsible for the creation of the Rebellion due to their blundering on Sucia, it follows that I accept that the Rebellion has not always existed. quote:Good for them. I'm not criticizing the Shaper regime of 100 years ago. I'm criticizing the state of the recent Shaper Regime, beginning at the events of Sucia, and ending at GF3. As with the Roman Empire, I have no doubts that the Shaper Regime once functioned efficiently. But it's quite clear that ever since Sucia, it's messed up time and time again. The Shaper regime is in decline, and can no longer be designated as an orderly and efficient Empire. quote:The above is just an internal contradiction on your behalf. If the Shaper regime wasn't incapable of keeping the world from falling into chaos in the first place, then there would be no present chaos. You seem to forget that the Shapers are not fighting an external foe. They are fighting an enemy of their own creation. quote:Yes, I can ignore all those years of peace, given that the Shaper regime of 100 years ago is not necessarily representative of the Shaper regime of today. Empires have a tendency to become decadent and decline as the times change. The Shapers have had a good run, but it's come to an end. They will either adapt, or crumble. quote:No, I can't give them a break. The Shapers have just made too many inexcusable blunders. The Rebellion is the product of their arrogance, decadence and inability to compromise and adapt. quote:You're trying to rationalize simple inadequacy on behalf of the Shapers. The fact that the Shapers are having difficulty handling their own creations is testimony to their plain short-sightedness and stupidity. quote:I merely wanted to point out that 'Siding with the Devil You Know instead of the Possible Devil' philosophy isn't always sound or appropriate. If the current 'devil' is a barbaric and all powerful 'Inner Party', then you haven't got much to lose by siding with another possible devil (EastAsia perhaps?). [ Sunday, January 07, 2007 00:59: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 01:08
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quote:Yes, he was. Hitler's party won the most seats in parliamentary elections and, as the leader of the largest party, he was invited to form a government with himself as chancellor. That is how democracy works, in most European states. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 01:22
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Mica: quote:If we follow that logic, Saddam and Stalin were both also democratically elected. All that stuff about abducting and killing rival politicians, as well as storming the streets to intimidate and bash anyone who owes allegiance to a different party, is QUITE democratic. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |