A hypothetical scenario
Pages
| Author | Topic: A hypothetical scenario |
|---|---|
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 16:57
Profile
Homepage
I've decided to create a poll so that veteran Geneforgers can respond with their opinions on a hypothetical scenario. Let's assume that the following alternative history occured: World War II has concluded, and has resulted in a victorious Axis (Nazi Germany has conquered Europe, the Africas, and what was the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Imperial Japan has conquered all of the Pacific and much of Asia). Imperial Japan's occupation of the United States is as brutal (if not worse) as the occupation of China during World War II. American citizens live in constant fear of an oppressor who abducts American citizens for use in forced labour camps, and as lab rats for cruel experiments. At a whim, the Japanese invaders can execute any American citizen, without giving him a trial. American political parties are banned, and even the slightest resentment of the occupying force (or the thought of United States Independence) is labelled as treason, and brutally crushed. Now that I have set the hypothetical scenario, all that remains is for you to explain how you would respond to this Asian threat. [ Wednesday, January 03, 2007 17:23: Message edited by: Waylander ] Poll Information This poll contains 1 question(s). 43 user(s) have voted. You may not view the results of this poll without voting. function launch_voter () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=vote;pollid=GKDivqTXZIyS"); return true; } // end launch_voter function launch_viewer () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=view;pollid=GKDivqTXZIyS"); return true; } // end launch_viewer function launch_window (url) { preview = window.open( url, "preview", "width=550,height=300,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status,menubar=no,scrollbars,resizable,copyhistory=no" ); window.preview.focus(); return preview; } // end launch_window   -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Triad Mage
Member # 7
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:00
Profile
Homepage
I think there should have been an option between the last two options. I would probably be involved in a violent resistance that did not go nearly as far as the 4th option. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:08
Profile
Homepage
Drakey: The option of violent 'non-extremist' resistance is made available in Option 3. Hence my expression 'Gentleman's war'. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 5814
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:19
Profile
Disseminate venereal diseases? Sign me up! Fight the Yellow Terror! -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:29
Profile
Homepage
As long as you choose that last option, the occupation will be doomed to failure... just like all occupations. Besides, why should we afford them any less than the most extreme resistance, Drakey? It would not weigh on my conscience in the least to do those things to someone invading like that. Sure I'd seek assistance from Nazi Germany, why not? It's not like I can fight them while under Japan's heel. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:35
Profile
Homepage
quote:There is a wide range of options between "Gentlemen's war" and "distribute habit-forming drugs, encourage prostitution, disseminate venereal diseases, and engage in acts of wanton terrorism and violence". Some things that fall into this range: - attacking off-duty soldiers - attacking military factories - attacking railroads, bridges, and other infrastructure that can be used by both soldiers and civilians - attacking power plants, machine shops, and other industry that has both military and civilian use - kidnapping/killing political leaders - kidnapping/killing relatives of leaders - kidnapping/killing relatives of soldiers - kidnapping/killing regular civilians None of these things fall under the definition of "gentleman's war", but at least some of them (attacking off-duty soldiers and dual-use infrastructure) are necessary for any meaningful resistance against militarily-superior enemy. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:38
Profile
Homepage
Zeviz, if you're confused by what I mean when I say 'Gentleman's War', think of the Geneva Conventions. Sure, they probably wouldn't exist in the alternative history I created, but use the Geneva Conventions when attempting to determine how one conducts a 'Gentleman's War'. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:47
Profile
Homepage
quote:I am not familiar with the exact text of Geneva Convention. Which of the actions I've listed are allowed by it? Also, doesn't Geneva Convention require strict separation between soldiers, who must always wear a uniform, and civilians? If so, how exactly are you planning to gather and arm your military without occupiers stopping every weapons shipment and killing every person who walks down the street wearing your uniform? [ Wednesday, January 03, 2007 17:47: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 17:48
Profile
Homepage
Dikiyoba would also like an option between three and four. Diplomacy and a strong organizational structure sounds like too much to hope for, but an anything-goes rebellion isn't any better than a brutal occupation. Resistance fighters will have to be ruthless but hopfully they don't have to be complete monsters. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 18:07
Profile
Homepage
Zeviz: quote:- attacking off-duty soldiers = Forbidden by Geneva Conventions. An off-duty/reserve soldier is not taking part in the conflict at the present, hence he is considered a civilian. - attacking military factories = Fine by the Geneva Conventions. - attacking railroads, bridges, and other infrastructure that can be used by both soldiers and civilians = Controversial. Witness Israel turning Lebanon's infrastructure to rubble. From what I understand, damaging infrastructure is not strictly forbidden, if the resulting damage to civilians is not excessive. It's been argued that Israel's destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure was excessive and unnecessary, and I'd be inclined to agree. - attacking power plants, machine shops, and other industry that has both military and civilian use = Same as above. - kidnapping/killing political leaders = Forbidden. Arresting them and subjecting them to a fair trial for war crimes is not. - kidnapping/killing relatives of leaders = Forbidden. - kidnapping/killing relatives of soldiers = Forbidden. - kidnapping/killing regular civilians = Forbidden, although some allowance is made for collaterol damage. Once again, 'excessive' collaterol damage is frowned upon. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 19:14
Profile
The Geneva Conventions are narrower than one might think. It doesn't look to me as though they protect occupying soldiers who are merely off duty. Some of the rules people attribute to the Geneva Conventions are actually in the Hague Regulations of 1907, instead. Others are just things that should be so, but aren't. In any case, the Geneva Conventions do not protect soldiers of countries which have not ratified the Geneva Conventions. Only the defeated Japan of real history ratified them, in 1953. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
|
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 19:21
Profile
Homepage
Waylander, could you keep RL politics to the General subforum, so that people who come here to get away from that mess wouldn't have to get involved in "debates" about Israel in game forums. As for the original poll, I'd vote for option 3.5: The same level of violence gurillas(sp?) performed during real World War II. (The clarified Option 3 sounds the same as Option 2, with the only difference being that in former case collective suicide is performed by marching with handguns against tanks, and in latter case it's performed by marching with peace banners against tanks.) [ Wednesday, January 03, 2007 19:24: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
|
Triad Mage
Member # 7
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 20:01
Profile
Homepage
I'd also go for 3.5 ... think Warsaw Ghetto uprising but on a larger scale. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 21:04
Profile
I wouldn't corrupt the minds of childrend or sell drugs. I won't neccarly ally my self with nazi germany buy I would make some efforts to pit japan and germany against each other. I understand that an some of that activity might occur and to some degree is needed but one needs to keep in mind of the long term aftermath of such tatics when you win the war. I also will smack the person who said they would be complacent to the invadeing force. Also I think it would be very hard logistically for Japan to invade America. Keep in mind that we out number them they are thousands of miles from their homeland makeing a logstical nightmare. Any succesful invasion of America will be less of army and more of a immigration. Keep the indians didn't loose America in one fell swoop they lost it due to a century of slow immigration with sporatic wars. Next time America changes hands I beleive it will be much in the same way. [ Wednesday, January 03, 2007 21:12: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 21:12
Profile
Considering the US no longer has a coherent millitary, it is pretty much anything goes. You have to make occupation so painful that there isn't any reason to stay. If there is no centralized resistance, then you can go after the leadership. This is the difference between this hypothetical scenario and the problems in the Middle East. There you have a command structure directing the rebellion and if it is destroyed then most of the rebellion will stop. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 22:32
Profile
Homepage
quote:That'd be me, and you're kidding yourself if you honestly believe you wouldn't do the same. I don't believe for a second that 11 out of 12 people here would really risk their lives in an attempt to fight off an occupation. [ Wednesday, January 03, 2007 22:33: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
|
written Wednesday, January 3 2007 22:48
Profile
Homepage
I voted that way as well... and ditto. If I really felt the need to martyr myself in the face of every evil, unfair situation I was confronted with, I wouldn't have made it very far in the world, or helped much of anything. People with power generally do awful, wretched things. But unless I actually have the power to stop them, I'm not going to add throwing my life away to the list of things I blame them for. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 00:15
Profile
I'll join the fight to free my country from invasive forces. Anyone who wouldn't, doesn't deserve to live in a country that does have freedoms. -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 03:13
Profile
Homepage
Reminds me of a poll I saw on NationStates about two years ago. I blogged about it here. -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 04:41
Profile
Homepage
quote: quote:Correction: more than half said they would. Given what you know about the history of actual resistance movements, does it strike you as even remotely plausible that they'd really do so? Show me any historical occupation in which more than half the population of the occupied country formed part of an armed resistance, and I will eat my hat. And don't give me any guff about those who responded to the poll not being a representative sample of the general population; they can't be that unrepresentative. Seriously, guys. I know we all want to play at being heroes, but if you had that kind of courage in real life you'd already be off doing aid work in Sudan instead of gabbing away on a message board. [ Thursday, January 04, 2007 04:44: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 05:36
Profile
Homepage
What on earth does this have to do with GF? What I'd do would depend on how screwed I'd be in the situation. If my entire home and livelihood were taken away and I were tossed out on the streets, I'd probably engage in some semi-criminal (and presumably violent) activity both for survival and resistance. If not (which I think is more likely, but we're talking WWII here, so who knows), I'd engage in some careful and well-placed passive resistance. No use in dying pointlessly. Moreover, people don't fight wars. Governments fight wars. Individuals who try to fight wars against governments get killed pretty quickly. Count me among the forces of defense when the armies are invading, but once we've lost, count me in the number of people committing silent sabotage in the rare moments when it is possible and otherwise whispering and hoping for freedom. Seize the opportunity to push for overthrow when it comes, but until then, one has to wait. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 07:08
Profile
Homepage
Given that the entire poll was about people saying what they would do, adding an extra subjunctive struck me as redundant. Honesty (to oneself, too) is another factor, of course. For example, there was this story yesterday about a man jumping on a subway track to save a stranger, and I read comments by people saying they'd do the same. Yeah right - maybe they wish they would, but the danger is a lot more tangible from close up. And no, I have no idea why this is in GF. Too bad this mod thing doesn't work backwards, or I'd take it to General. :P -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 08:06
Profile
Homepage
I would have no problem 'corrupting the minds of children.' How would it be corrupting them anyway if all your doing is telling them how evil the people that are invading your country are? I see no issues with that. Upon further consideration, I'm not sure I understand the "sell drugs' and 'encourage prostitution' parts. How does it help the resistance to screw up your own society? That part doesn't seem to make much sense. quote:Are you saying that American society as a whole is generally cowardly (something I don't beleive) or that the people on these boards are generally cowardly (something that may very well be true)? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 09:03
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Emperor Tullegolar: quote:He's saying that people in general are cowardly. (The only reason I voted for resistence is because I don't believe I could "stay below the radar" forever. If I could stay safe by doing nothing, I probably would.) Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
|
written Thursday, January 4 2007 09:10
Profile
Fear is effective and people have a tendency to keep their heads down during a storm. I would be supprised if even 1 out of 12 America adults would take part in constant active (some violence included) resistance. Most people would just wait out the storm and hope they don't get blown away. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |