Factions
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Tuesday, October 3 2006 05:43
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Originally by Waylander: quote:You apppeared to be using Lankan and his followers as an example of people who didn't go to the Shaper for protection. I was merely pointing out that they did go to the Shapers for protection at first and only fled when the Shapers failed to help them. Even if they are oppressed, regular people still have a lot of faith in the Shapers. At least until the Shapers fail to protect them against the rogues and rebels. quote:But the analogy is different enough from the actual situation that I didn't find it convincing at all. And we're trying to convince others that our opinion is right in this debate, are we not? quote:See, that was a lot more convincing than your previous analogy. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Tuesday, October 3 2006 08:18
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quote:Take a look at almost any GF1 ending for the Takers. Without the geneforge or Drakons, their cause would never survive, simply because they lack the ability to shape an army strong enough to counter the shapers. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, October 3 2006 08:45
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Chaos: The shapers always manage to make war in an orderly and efficient manner. The Takers on the other hand, have a ‘destroy everything and worry about it later’ strategy. Everyone loses with this method. As for the innocent towns and civilian casualties, I'll admit that all wars have these, but usually they are accidental or at least regretted afterwards. The Takers, on the other hand, are purposely seeding fear into all humans through the death and destruction they bring about. Destruction: I believe that the Takers wage war in a way that damages the land for years to come. While the shapers move in with controlled creations, wipe out the enemies and move on, the Takers are scarring the land in a colorful variety of ways. There are rogues everywhere, who knows how that is going to effect the ecosystem. Then there are the diseases. Then there are Ghaldring's trademark 'fires.' Sympathy: Who are these high ranking individuals that joined the rebels you speak of? Lankan: The rebels on the second island were forces to form their own militia due to lack of shaper presence. If there were enough shapers there to keep the town safe (which there would have been if they were Tullegolites) that isolated incident would not have happened. Given the choice, people will take shaper protection over Taker ‘liberation’ any day. Protection: The point is that shapers protect their people, whereas the Takers cause chaos to get what they want. It all boils down to the social contract: how much freedom are you willing to give up for protection? With rogue monsters running around spitting acid, all of the sudden bowing to the shapers doesn't seem like such a bad idea. Analogy: There is no way you can get away with trying to compare the Shaper regime to Iran and the Takers to the rest of the (sane) world. If anything, it is the opposite. Joining the Takers is like joining some kind of terrorist organization, who's goal is to spread fear and chaos and eventually bring the world under a new order. Serviles: I didn't mean that the Drakons force the serviles to fight. The point is, serviles were not meant to do battle, and the drakons giving them this option is very irresponsible of them. Of course the serviles will fight, they are stupid like that, the inevitable result if their deaths. The drakons know this, yet they allow them to fight anyway. Finally, I am having trouble naming historical revolutionaries that destroyed their own nation to free it. It is different when two separate nations are fighting and destroying each other (Allies vs. Axis). But when a group is fighting for freedom, they don't usually destroy their own people or property to accomplish this goal. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Tuesday, October 3 2006 17:37
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Emperor: quote:That is conjecture. Jeff gives very little background on the history of Shaper warfare, so we really don't know the results of Shaper wars. What we have seen in previous Geneforge games is that the Shapers are methodical in their butchering of any humans or serviles who have even the slightest inkling of independent thought. For example, when the Shapers managed to conquer Medab, they razed it and the surrounding settlements. They either slaughtered the serviles/humans within, or carted them off as slaves. So while Shapers may not employ rogue creations, they still don't seem to have any qualm with killing or enslaving civilians. quote:The Takers aren't interested in destroying everything, merely destabilizing the Shaper regime. They are very selective about where they release 'rogue' creations (which are often under the control of the Rebels). Rogues are released in areas near Shaper outposts, or on roads which Shaper armies would use to travel. quote:How do you know that the Takers do not regret the deaths of innocent serviles and humans? quote:An unfortunate side-effect when fighting an oppressive regime whose military might far exceeds your own. The Takers can't fight the Shapers via conventional warfare, due to their lack of Shaping skill and resources. Hence, they need to resort to asymmetrical warfare. Sun Tzu suggested this is his 'Art of War'. quote:'Scarring the land' is fanciful nonsense. quote:The elderly mage from Island 1. Spharon from Dhonal's Isle, who was entrusted with a troupe of serviles. Another mage from Dhonal's Isle, who ambushed you at the pass. Corrie, from Island 4. quote:The rebels on the second island were able to form their own militia due to the lack of Shaper presence. quote:Again, your claim that people would take Shaper protection over Taker liberation is conjecture. It is strongly evidenced throughout the series that many humans and serviles would like to see nothing more than the collapse of the Shaper regime. In some cases, these individuals have joined with, or colloborated with, the rebellion. We also see numerous servants of the Shapers who are coerced into serving. They don't want to serve, they consider themselves autonomous beings, but they are too frightened to flee and attempt to challenge the Shapers. So overall, there are three types of humans/creations in Geneforge. 1. Humans/creations who genuinely prefer Shaper rule over that of the revolutionaries. These tend to be in the minority. 2. Humans/creations who despise the Shaper regime, and join the revolutionaries. In general, mainly creations (serviles), and a small proportion of humans join the revolutionaries. Serviles have a greater tendency to defect, as they are treated far worse than the humans (again, the 'slave' and 'peasant' analogy). 3. Humans/creations who despise the Shaper regime, but who lack the courage to rise up due to fear of Shaper retaliation. Many creations, and the majority of humans, fall into this group. quote:No, the Shapers purposefully make their people defenseless, so that the people are: 1. Unable to resist their tyranny. 2. Forced to rely on them during disaster. If the Shapers genuinely desired the welfare of their people (including the serviles), they would allow them the right to defend themselves. This would include the right to form a well trained militia, as well as the knowledge required to defeat rogue creations. If the Shapers genuinely cared about the humans and creation,s they would not use them as meat shields during every conflict. quote:As I mentioned previous, analogies aren't mirror images of the scenario in question, which is why they are analogies. However, the analogy was relevant to the following assertion: People who do not declare independence from the Shapers (ie. join the Takers) often do so out of fear of Shaper reprisal, not out of some affection for the Shaper regime. This is similiar to the situation in Iran. Many Iranian civilians do not stay in Iran out of love for their theocratic government. They stay because they fear that they (or their family) will be shot if they attempt to flee. quote:Unsupported conjecture on your behalf. Merely because serviles were not specifically created by the Shapers for battle does not change the fact that they are capable of defending themselves, and capable of holding their own against human counterparts. In fact, evidence suggests that if serviles are given the same combat training as a human, they should perform in battle just as well. quote:It is not irresponsible to allow independent, mature beings to choose their fate. The serviles are not coerced to fight. They want to fight, and had begun the resistance against the Shapers long before the drakons were even involved. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, October 3 2006 19:22
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Me: quote:You: quote:I suppose what I said was speculation, but at least you seem to agree with it. Medab: The Shapers razed Medab because there were no innocents within its walls. Everyone who lived in that city was guilty of treason against the Shaper Council. The penalty for treason is, even to this day, death. Those that were enslaved got off easy. Rogues: No, the rebels are not methodical about where they place rogues. Where aren't there Taker rogues in the games? They are everywhere, released with no concern for where they are or who they kill. And no, most of them are not under rebel control. Maybe a few towards the end of the games, but other than that... that is why they are called rogues in the first place. Regret: The Takers are killing innocents on purpose, to create fear and chaos. Drakons are arrogant creatures, and they care for no one other than themselves. They try to fool their followers with vision of grandeur which are really thinly veiled calls for blood. I can't even remember a time I ever saw a drakon express emotion other than anger or hatred. They obviously have no souls. Scarring the Land: Just because Sun Tzu says it's a good idea, doesn't mean good people use it. It is still a scumbag tactic and it is further evidence of why the Takers are worse than the shapers. Oh, and what's so fanciful about the evidence I provided that you failed to include in your quote? Sympathizers: By 'elderly mage' do you mean Hodge? The total psychopath? Spharon, how can you say he wasn't just in it for his own good? He does not justify the Taker ways. Not sure who this this "another mage" is. As for Corrie, she is hardly high ranking. She seems like a backwater hick to me. You'll always have those, again not good justification. Common Sense: You say what I say was conjecture. It’s more like common sense. Why do you think humans despise shaper rule so much? Are the shapers sending hostile creations to attack their cities? Are the shapers walking into towns and pillaging them for no good reason? Even Diwaniya says that the shapers can not be as ruthless as you say because they like to maintain good relations with the people. No, what you say is conjecture, why would people be so intent on rebelling against a system that works? You say that loyalists are in the minority, how do you support this? Where is your proof that the people act only in fear rather than in reverence and respect for their protectors? Militia: The fact that shapers use creations to defend towns shows how much they care for the people in them. Why allow them to put their lives at risk when a thahd can quickly be made to go in their place? I would think that anyone in the world today would kill to not have the government send their friends and family into battle. quote:I would like to argue against this... but your going to have to make more sense first. What makes you think this? Iran Analogy: Still lame, my terrorist one is more accurate... a mirror image, if you will. Serviles: Again you miss my point. Why should they have to go to battle when they don't have to? Shapers take care of them, they give them homes and food, the Takers give them only bloodshed and death. What's mature about rushing into battle to your inevitable death? Serviles make bad decisions, they need the protection and guiding hand of a shaper, not the madness of a drakon. Also, evidence (gore at the end of my sword) shows serviles suck at battle, I don’t know what your talking about... performing just as well... nonsense. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, October 3 2006 19:44
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quote:Waylander you just decribed the reason for Japanese Imperialism... Japan became an imperial state after Western Imperialism came in and enslaved China and put restrictions on Japan. The Japanese were like "We see now, in this new world it is conquer or be conquered, so we must conquer!" Also, they saw America as a threat to their Pacific territories (and wanted their terretories). Hai soo desu. quote:I remember that there were hints in G2 and G3 that the Drakons' methods of shaping were superior... and since when did you here about the drakon forces being weaker? (Drakons and drayks are quite imposing, not to mention multitudes of crazed magic serviles plus grunts). quote:This is your list for "high ranking" individuals who joined the rebels... The elderly mage was a selfish punk with no real hint of his supporting of the rebel cause (besides his own personal gain). Spharon was a pawn who was used to spread extra chaos, he still enslaved servile (and in a worse way than the Shapers). The random mage that ambushed you, in my opinion, probably learned magic under the rebels or was given a few cansiters. Corrie was just a little guard who had family issues. Also, I don't think any of these were truely "influential individuals". quote:You are fogetting the main group (if it isn't those who actually do love Shapers) those that really are indifferent to Shapers, besides the fact that they were brought many advantages in daily life by the Shapers, so they really have nothing to gain and everything to lose if the Rebels win. Also, I don't see why you think that most of the population hate Shapers. People seem to be living comfortably under the Shapers in general (and don't even bother using the analogy of the swamp people because they wanted to do what they did, if you here about the free food and shelter they would have gotten if they stayed in town.) Have you ever seen a begger in Geneforge? Jeff did make a point in putting them in Avernum if I remember correctly. Fixed some unwanted bolds in the post. [ Thursday, October 05, 2006 11:14: Message edited by: Retlaw May ] -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |