Factions
Pages
| Author | Topic: Factions |
|---|---|
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Wednesday, September 27 2006 14:59
Profile
Homepage
Everyone: Dikiyoba says no one shares my belief that things should be returned to the way they were. However, this thread (edit: the shapers keeping secrets thread, not this one) has shown that most people here seem to believe that the shapers should keep their secrets to themselves rather than allow them to be generally known to the public. The Awakened represent a failure of this ideology. The only way for the shapers to keep their secrets is if they continue their policy of shaper superiority over other humans and over creations. So you must make your choice: are you conservative shapers, or do you truly believe in equality for all? Or are you all hypocrites that think the serviles should be treated as equals as long as they do not seek to know shaper secrets? [ Wednesday, September 27, 2006 15:00: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
|
written Wednesday, September 27 2006 15:44
Profile
First on the original topic: I'll admit that in G1 I liked helping the Obeyers first and then I used the Genefoge and went rampant on the Taker city. In G2 I like playing as a no canister loyalist, because it is the most orderly way to go. And in G3 I am a Shaper that agrees with most of the Shaper answers except I let those two serviles who have been "tainted" live because they still want to serve the Shapers. On the current topic: I guess I'm a moderate here. I would exile all the intelegent serviles to a reasonably remote and decent island, but keep the regular serviles as is. My reasoning is that most serviles (until stired up by the rogues) like what they are doing. I don't like the intelegent serviles' policy of forcing many reluctant serviles to follow them. Oh and ET may be pleased to here that everytime I play a Shaper loyalist in G3, I always kill Learned Darian (why did Darian get a sex change after G1 anyways?) -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 3442
|
written Thursday, September 28 2006 07:03
Profile
Homepage
quote:The serviles who aren't put of secret mountain sects may develop these attitudes on their own. In GF3, the Awakened servile in Drypeak only takes away serviles who show the intelligence to actually be independant. And these haven't been stirred up. They realise that they are being exploited. As for Darian... the thought of killing her makes me...I don't know. upset? Disappointed? The very fact that she doesn't do anything hostile at all through the series, and works only to try and better the life of serviles makes her a kind of Martin Luther King Jr. figure to me. Probably extreme, but who cares? Even in GF3 when she sides with the rebels (who I always end up following as well), she doens't force you to switch sides if you are loyal. She asks, and pleads to your better nature. On the subject of serviles driving themselves mad to get magic (yes, it was a while ago), well, this just further proves they are determined to be equals with humans. Don't humans sometimes do the wrong things for the right reasons? -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Thursday, September 28 2006 07:18
Profile
Homepage
If serviles are under constant care and protection of shapers, there will be no need for them to develop these thoughts. In fact, it should be prevented, because, as we have seen, such thoughts generally lead to destruction on a massive scale. "Take our free" indeed. Darian may be peaceful on the outside. But look at her actions and intentions. Serviles that could still be perfectly good servants go to her and learn to be independent, the next step being to leave her and join a faction, promoting hostility towards other factions. Darien's compound in Geneforge 2 was a recruiting and training ground for future serviles terrorists. In Geneforge 3, she even tried to make you a rebel. I think most people here would side with the Geneforge 3 shapers rather than the rebels. Servile mages = homicidal maniacs. Their inferior brains can not handle magic. Just because they are determined to have it means nothing. I am determined to be a god, does that make me the equal to a god? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 3442
|
written Thursday, September 28 2006 07:42
Profile
Homepage
Serviles under the "care and protection" of shapers still develop these thoughts. If Shapers make serviles that can want to be free, then they should let them be free. If they want something to mow the lown, invent something that can't argue, or feel, or think. I'm going to try this another way... Intellectual evolution. Man once thought serfdom was a good idea. We realised we were wrong. Serviles are learning to be independant, instead of mindless zombies. This can only be a good thing, right? And Darian didn't try to make you a rebel. She asks you to think, and reminds you it's not to late to change your mind... She doesn't point a gun at you and says, "Join the Evil Bad Guys, now!" And people only support the Shapers in GF3 because the rebels are going about things the wrong way. If the Shapers were going about planting spawners everywhere too, and killing innocents, I think a lot more people would side with the Rebels... As for the God thing, no. I didnt mean that aspiring to be a human made serviles more human. I meant aspiring did. Your wish to be a God shows you have a human side to you. -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 7148
|
written Thursday, September 28 2006 19:46
Profile
I just wanted to answer a thought that was posed quite a bit ago in the thread, since it's right up my alley of study. The most recent school of thought when it comes to intelligence is the brain to body weight ratio. Humans (expecially babies) have ridiculously large brains for our body sizes. Dolphins are right behind us in this regard. So depending on this ratio, serviles may not be all that dumb. If the world of Geneforge works the same as our world, then any creation that can talk and understand speech would fall under the "intelligent" category. Language is an incredibly complex human behavior. If you think about it, words are really just bits of noise that your brain is able to pick out and attach meaning to. The fact that serviles can communicate and understand language puts them at an intelligence level that is somewhat on par with an average human. Obviously even toddlers are able to form sentences, but they can't form and comprehend complex concepts like the smart serviles can. This is even hinted at by your character when talking to smart serviles for the first time. They'll usually make some remark that your character will point out is "very uncharacteristic of a servile." I guess what I'm getting at is that none of the serviles are technically dumb when compared to every other creature on the planet. When compared to humans, the average servile isn't as intelligent. But, ET, you don't feel that the smart serviles have actually earned a little respect for breaking out of the handicap that Shapers placed on them? By your logic, I would think the Shapers would earn a little less respect since they didn't design the servile model well enough to keep this intelligence from showing up. But that's just my thoughts. Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, May 21 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Thursday, September 28 2006 21:01
Profile
Homepage
Be-Cavalier: First I must ask about this brain to body weight ratio. How does that make sense scientifically? If someone is born with no arms or legs, will they be smarter than the average person? I do recognize that serviles are superior to other creations. Because of this, I believe they should be given a place to live, food to eat, and I'll even agree not to slaughter them for food or force them onto the battlefield. All I ask is that they put in a days work in the mines or make me a sandwich to repay me for giving them life in the first place. They may be the most clever of all creations, but they are still creations, and shapers are still far superior. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Thursday, September 28 2006 22:41
Profile
Homepage
quote:That's actually an interesting question, and while I don't have an answer as such, I wouldn't be enormously surprised if the answer was "yes". The brain organises itself dynamically during the first years of life based on the kind of sensory input it receives. It's widely known, for example, that someone born blind will devote a larger brain area to hearing (and generally have better hearing than a sighted person), and someone born deaf will devote a larger brain area to vision. So it's reasonable to assume that in someone born without limbs, some parts of the brain normally dedicated to moving the limbs would devote themselves to other uses. I suspect the result would more likely be better coordination in what muscles remain than greater overall intelligence, though. At any rate, the point is that a large proportion of the brain is devoted to processing sensory input and motor output -- and the number of neurons required for both of these things scales up with body size. It's the "extra" brain mass on top of what's needed to keep the body working properly that can be used for higher-order cognitive tasks. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
|
written Friday, September 29 2006 00:45
Profile
Though all of this is whistling in the dark, since we understand little about either intelligence, in the abstract, or the brain. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 7500
|
written Friday, September 29 2006 03:23
Profile
I think all humans are equal in a way. Of course there are differently skilled humans, but they are able to apply for better jobs and they have the chance to become famous, like Einstein. (you know who he is, don't you?) I think serviles should be the same. If there are some who are more intelligent, they should be equal with humans and they should have the right to learn magic. Of course, they could do anything they wanted, as long as they didn't start wars or otherwise didn't make others life harder. EDIT: also, I remember one thing about brains. Humans only use 10% of it, at least according to our current knowledge. Or something such, my memory ain't the best. And humans can, at any point, make more memory if they run out. So we shouldn't worry about that our brains couldn't handle all info we get. EDIT2: and, ET, if you try to be god, go on. If you succeed in getting enough power to be counted god, then you are a god. Do we really need someone to serve us? By all means, I would let serviles live and maybe form a nation. If they couldn't handle magic, I wouldn't give them it. They don't need to be crushed. You can be in peace with them but you still can ask them to mine in a mine for you, for reasonable pay of course. Just look at women. Men cruelly enslaved them, even if they are at least equal or maybe even more worthy than us, and nowadays they are equal. And this actually doesn't have about anything to do with this topic... just felt like writing this. [ Friday, September 29, 2006 03:36: Message edited by: Crafterlord ] Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 7148
|
written Friday, September 29 2006 04:57
Profile
quote:This is actually a more general concept of intelligence, from species to species. Obviously you can have humans that have a huge brain but can be dumb as rocks. Brain size actually doesn't matter all that much when you're comparing it to other members of the same species. And I'm not sure about a blind person actually being able to hear better than a person who can see normally. Sight is our main mode of gathering information around us, and hearing is probably the second most important. People who are blind have actually just adapted their attention to focus more on what they hear. It's sort of similar to wandering around a dark room. Since sight is useless, you rely on a different sense more than you normally do: touch. It's sort of the same principle, as far as I'm aware. Also, I think my neuroscience professor actually made the comment that if human hearing were any better, we'd actually be able to hear Brownian motion. Which would get pretty irritating if you ask me :P Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, May 21 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Friday, September 29 2006 09:58
Profile
Homepage
I have heard of an experiment done where a woman was blindfolded for several months. Brain activity in the eye section of the brain or whatever slowed to a halt, but after a week or so there was activity there again, hinting that that part of the brain was indeed being assigned to other tasks, hearing perhaps. As for servile brains, it really is a matter of how developed they are. First generation serviles seem to be extremely stupid, however, they have great evolutionary potential it seems, almost on par with humans after a mere 200 years on Sucia island. Really, we might be dealing with two separate species here, as the differences are so substantial. I say enslave first generation serviles, and destroy intelligent evolved ones. Intelligent serviles must be destroyed because they are not only a threat to shaper culture, but they are also very physically destructive. I believe this is true for them as a race. Sure, there will be exceptions, but for the most part, intelligent serviles are hostile, and should be dealt with accordingly. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 7148
|
written Friday, September 29 2006 10:35
Profile
quote:I haven't heard of this experiment, but it'd be interesting to read up on. The only problem I can see is that some areas of the brain are very specialized and can't really adapt to other functions. The occipital lobe in humans is almost entirely devoted to sorting through visual information and sending it down the proper pathways. It would be hard for it to start decoding audible clues for instance. But if someone provided me a link to this or similar studies, I'd love to read it. And back to Geneforge, I agree that for the original way of Shaper life to continue, the intelligent serviles would have to be killed, and wiped out of history. But who's to say that the old Shaper philosophy would still work today? Now that the Shaper civilization has been through rebellion and freakish new creations, they're going to have to adapt to a new way of thinking. But I'm not sure if any of the factions in the Geneforge universe have gotten it completely right yet. Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, May 21 2006 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
|
written Friday, September 29 2006 18:02
Profile
The information about using only 10% of the brain was a made up statistic. I hadn't heard of that particular study on a blind-folded woman, but I do remember reading a few years ago about other related work. It's been shown that the brain will, even late in life, rewire itself to cope with a loss. Brain area functions will be reassigned, new connections can be formed, and in general the brain will try to use under utilized capacity. Servile brains were much like those of serfs in the middle ages. With most of the day spent in backbreaking toil, there is little leisure time for intellectual thought. Sucia Island gave the serviles time to develop since they weren't overworked or having their thinking done for them by Shapers. Most intellectual revolutions were marked by a surge in leisure time for part of the population. Ancient Greece had a golden age in Athens because the slaves did most of the manual labor. You had similar periods in Europe coming out of the Dark Ages. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Sunday, October 1 2006 22:28
Profile
Homepage
The factions which I find most convincing? Geneforge 1 = Takers. Geneforge 2 = Takers. Geneforge 3 = Rebels. The logic behind the Taker philosophy is so mind numbingly simple, that even a child could see its validity. [ Sunday, October 01, 2006 22:31: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Monday, October 2 2006 04:23
Profile
Homepage
Where is the logic in trying to spread chaos? The Takers are cold blooded murderers that would genocide humanity if they had the chance. They claim to support freedom and equality, but the serviles are as much servants under the them as they are under shapers. It's more like only a child could see its validity. Which makes sense since serviles have child-brains and drakons are insane. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7472
|
written Monday, October 2 2006 06:14
Profile
Homepage
quote:Seconded, except for the servile bit. No good can come from the wanton violence that the Takers/Rebels support. The paradox is, the serviles can only get freedom by resorting to full-out war. But in order to start a war, they have to become enslaved to another race. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Monday, October 2 2006 15:58
Profile
Homepage
Emperor: quote:The Takers aren't trying to 'spread chaos'. They are struggling to overthrow a corrupt and repressive regime. In the process, chaos occurs. Chaos is a natural product of any revolution or struggle against a tyranically regime. Generally, the overthrow of a repressive government is preceded and followed by chaos, which is then followed by anarchy, and then (most often) the establishment of a new government. Would you have argued that the Jews in the Nazi concentration camps should not have shown any resistance to their Nazi oppressors, as they would be causing 'chaos'? quote:It is not cold blooded murder to kill an enemy who allows the functioning of a tyrannical regime. quote:Nonsense. The vast majority of the Takers feel sympathetic to humans, as humans are also under the thumb of the Shapers. While the serviles are the slaves, the humans are the peasants. quote:The Serviles made a voluntary choice to join the Takers, as have humans and even the odd rogue Shaper. In fact, it seems that serviles have a natural compulsion to want to be free. Otherwise the Shapers wouldn't need to be so strict in monitoring and controlling the thoughts of their creations! Either way, Serviles who join the Takers are willing participants. No one holds a gun to their heads. Unlike the serviles who serve under the Shapers... quote:No, both children and adults who lived under oppression can see the validity of the Taker cause. quote:The evidence contradicts you. quote:I disagree. The drakons tend to be selfish and coldly rational. But not insane. Nioca: quote:What better alternative do you suggest? I seem to distinctly remember the Awakened of GF2 taking the diplomatic path with the Shapers, only to get destroyed for their efforts. The Taker logic is simple for this very reason: The mindset of the Shaper regime refuses to accept the idea of granting humans or creations equality. HENCE, it logically follows that the only way for Serviles and humans to gain equality is to overthrow the Shaper regime. And judging from what I have seen, the creation and human alliance would have a reasonable chance of destroying the Shaper regime. quote:Well, you've just agreed with me... quote:Not necessarily. I think you underestimate the tenacity of the serviles. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Monday, October 2 2006 18:12
Profile
Homepage
The Takers are spreading unnecessary chaos. If the shaper regime were truly as repressive as you say it is, why do the Takers not have overwhelming support of the population? It’s because they attack innocent towns, they release rogues upon commoners with little to no affiliation with the shapers whatsoever. They leave only destruction in their wake. Yeah, real "sympathetic." The fact that people go to the shapers for protection rather than helping to overthrow their oppressive regime is all the evidence I need to show me who is in the right here. Serviles join the Takers willingly because they are foolish children. You can't let them make this decision on their own. It's like wanting to run away and join the circus, only this circus has deadly results. Are the serviles not in better hands under the care of shapers than they are being thrown into battle by drakon overlords? Drakons seem rational? What's rational about destroying the world they are trying to free? But what is the alternative? The Tullegolites. We will bring about a new age of peace and order. Join me, and together we can rule the world! -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
|
written Monday, October 2 2006 18:48
Profile
The Taker "simpithy" that Waylander is refering to, is probably that of that town on Gull Island. He makes the generalization that all towns are treated like this, but that is a bad generalization. The only reason that they treated humans like this there was because it was so remote and small (also the dirrect will of drakons was missing there). If you look at the ending of G3 you will see that drakons are ruthless to their targets (not to mention the diseases they manufactured) and set everything "aflame". Also, I found that the Taker leader, Ghaldring, lacked empathy to all (including the Shapers, regular humans, serviles, drayks, and even his own drakons) when he looks on deaths and losses, which even the Shapers hold some remorse for their own regular troops. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Monday, October 2 2006 19:29
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Waylander: quote:Not if you join them. If you join them, you provide just enough help and power for them to claim the mountains as their own and defend it against the Shapers. quote:Dikiyoba doesn't believe for one moment that a servile or drayk who joins the Takers and then decides they don't like it has the option to quit. The other Takers would view it as betrayal and kill them instead. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Monday, October 2 2006 20:35
Profile
Homepage
Emperor: quote:That is opinion, not fact. What qualifies as 'unnecessary chaos' is open to interpretation. quote:You've just answered your own question. Think about it... quote:Perhaps you should tell me exactly what 'innocent' towns the rogues attacked? EVERY target attacked by the rebels could be considered a military target, or at least an outpost for Shaper rule. quote:No. They don't release rogues on commoners. They release them near Shaper outposts, which will (hopefully) result in destabilization. Any civilian deaths are merely collateral damage. quote:Sort of like the Allies in WWII? I seem to distinctly remember Japan and German occupied areas being reduced to rubble by Allied carpet bombing campaigns. Ahh, now I see. The Allies should have just laid down their arms and allowed themselves to be conquered by Nazi and Japanese imperialists. That would have been so much better than causing 'destruction'. Perhaps you want the Rebels to fight the Shaper regime with cotton balls and feather dusters? quote:Apparently there IS widespread sympathy for the Rebels, otherwise the rebellion wouldn't be a problem in the first place. In fact, a number of individuals with high positions have defected to the rebels. quote:Like the rebels on the second island? quote:You have no evidence, merely selective observational skills. The vast majority of individuals serve the Shaper regime out of fear, due to coercion. This is evidenced in each of the 'rebel' ending in the Geneforge series, where many Shapers are murdered by their own creations while they sleep. Added to which, there is intensive brainwashing by the Shaper regime to force the humans and serviles into slavish obedience, similiar to the propaganda employed by the North Koreans. quote:Partially correct. It's like wanting to flee Iran to move to a secular state. Only attempting to leave Iran and join the 'infidels' will result in you getting shot by the government that claims to 'protect' you. quote:'Thrown into battle'? We must have been playing different games, because the last time I checked, the serviles are willing participants in the war against the Shapers. No Drakons are holding a thorn baton to their head. quote:Why not ask the Allies that? Or any revolutionaries or resistors to an invader? -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Monday, October 2 2006 21:11
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Waylander: quote:The analogy doesn't work, because the Takers started the war. They're on the offensive, not the defensive. All I get out of that statement is a very good reason why the Shapers should keep fighting to uphold their empire. quote:Didn't Lankan go to Diwaniya to ask for help in dealing with the rogues first, and only became a rebel after losing his temper because Diwaniya didn't do anything, though? Edit: Dikiyoba looked up correct spelling of names. [ Monday, October 02, 2006 21:14: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Monday, October 2 2006 22:15
Profile
Homepage
Dikiyoba: quote:1. False. The Takers did not 'start' this war. The Shapers did. It is an act of war to force a particular race into subservience via the use of force and coercion. The Takers are on the defensive, as they are fighting against Shaper oppression, for the right to be treated as equal, autonomous beings. 2. Even you were to argue (on technicalities) that the Takers did start the war (because they struck the first blow against a regime who would genocide them if it was aware of their existence), I fail to see why my analogy doesn't work. Merely because it isn't a mirror image of the situation in question doesn't invalidate the analogy. That's the reason why its an analogy. The principle I am attempting to put forward remains the same in both cases. Sometimes destruction is necessary to preserve freedom, equality and dignity. Merely because they use destructive means to achieve their goals does not nullify the legitimacy of their cause. Many resistance groups have struck the first blow against their oppressors, such as the Greeks against the Ottomans in a struggle for an independent Greece, or the Polish against the Russians after the partitions. quote:Again, I fail to see the point. Lankan is rather hostile towards the Shapers, and clearly sympathizes with the Rebels. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Tuesday, October 3 2006 03:13
Profile
Homepage
quote:I ran, you ran, we all ran from Iran! Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all night. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |