Factions

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Author	Topic: Factions
Emperor Tullegolar Shaper Member # 7420	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:07 Profile Homepage #0 Which faction out of all the Geneforge games do you find most convincing? By convincing I mean which one do you really feel you wound most like to join, and why? Though I have beaten the games with every possible ending, I was never quite satisfied with the way things worked out. I found no faction particularly convincing, yet I was unable to gain the power and prestige I desired by working alone. I suppose that I prefer the Obeyers. I approve of their groveling. However, the Obeyers of Sucia were contaminated. I would feel obligated to give them rights if they actually had the intelligence and courage to ask me for them, and so I feel creations should be destroyed before they are capable of such things. I also use the geneforge, simply because I hate the Shaper Council and their backward ways. I long to see them fall. Unfortunately, it seems the only ones capable of bringing them down are the Takers, and I would side with the Shapers as the lesser of two evils in that conflict. It is also unfortunate that the original geneforge was so flawed. Not that it matters that much, as I don’t really act any less like myself when I’m under its influence. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 \| Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
*i The Establishment Member # 6	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:12 Profile #1 Early on I would say the Awakened, they appear to be the most reasonable, although Trajkov did make some good points (he was almost un-Taker like to be a full Taker I feel). Later on, I would say the Shapers...the Awakened were too weak as time went on, the Barzites were crazy, and the Takers insane. Once things turned into Rebels versus Shapers, I'd stick with the Shapers. Even if they are cruel, they are not indiscriminately spreading dangerous creatures all over the place. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Amyth Shaper Member # 7472	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:17 Profile Homepage #2 In GF1 and 2, I'm Awakening all the way. I prefer their way of attempting to get freedom, by building bonds with the shapers, rather than killing them. In GF3, I'm a reluctant shaper. I don't agree with most of their views, but if no one is in control, chaos and death will regin. Oh, and welcome back, Tullegolar. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 \| Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:31 Profile Homepage #3 In G1, I prefer the Obeyers. The character I play there has a loyal, practical personality and wouldn't stand for Takers and their war and he wouldn't side with the Awakened because they have so little power to accomplish anything. But the Obeyers are loyal and fairly sensible. In G2, I usually ally with the Awakened. The character I play with there is interested in power, open to new ideas, and still ethical, so the Awakened provide a balance between power, freedom for serviles, and not harming too many innocents. Dikiyoba hasn't played G3 yet, so no opinions there. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Emperor Tullegolar Shaper Member # 7420	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:39 Profile Homepage #4 I am interested to know why you all think serviles should be treated as equals. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 \| Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:53 Profile Homepage #5 Because my moral beliefs compel me to treat humans and beings of similar mental and emotional abilities with decency. Unless, of course, they are evil beings intent on harming decent beings and with lots of treasure. Those beings must be ruthlessly slain and looted of all valuables. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
*i The Establishment Member # 6	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:57 Profile #6 quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: I am interested to know why you all think serviles should be treated as equals. Because they are sentient, able to grasp abstract ideals like freedom and liberty, and have feelings/emotions like any other human. Do you feel the Drakons are justified in treating the Drayks as inferior? -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Emperor Tullegolar Shaper Member # 7420	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 17:05 Profile Homepage #7 Preposterous! What if there was such a thing as artificial intelligence? Would you give computers rights as well? Serviles may be able to grasp certain ideas, but surely you can recognize the inferiority. They are weak, small brained, greedy, and more often hostile than not. They can’t even learn magic without either help from a superior human, or by going completely crazy. How can these things be treated as equals? As for drakons treating drayks like lesser being. Well, drayks are lesser beings! They are weaker and less intelligent. But it matters not, what do I care what a drakon thinks? Drakons are inferior to shapers. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 \| Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Randomizer Law Bringer Member # 6785	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 17:17 Profile #8 We already had much of this debate here in Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy as little while ago. Most of the members feel that the end result of intelligence is more important than the origin, I didn't like any of the factions. The shaper loyalist seems the best in that it isn't causing chaos and destruction to achieve an end. That the drakons and ur-drakons are behind the rebellion means that they are using the process to eliminate everyone else and that the liberation of serviles is a smokescreen to their real ends. Posts: 4643 \| Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
*i The Establishment Member # 6	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 18:24 Profile #9 quote: What if there was such a thing as artificial intelligence? Would you give computers rights as well? Yes, if sufficiently sentient and self-aware. In other words, if it can decide on its own it wants these basic human equivalent rights, then it should have them. Of course, we've debated this before and I don't think we need to go further into it. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Emperor Tullegolar Shaper Member # 7420	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 19:24 Profile Homepage #10 Well, then, your lucky I missed out on that debate. I would have kept it going forever. A pity. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 \| Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 20:10 Profile Homepage #11 quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Serviles may be able to grasp certain ideas, but surely you can recognize the inferiority. They are weak, small brained, greedy, and more often hostile than not. They can’t even learn magic without either help from a superior human, or by going completely crazy. How can these things be treated as equals? quote: [Negros] may be able to grasp certain ideas, but surely you can recognize the inferiority. They are weak, small brained, greedy, and more often hostile than not. They can’t even learn [math] without either help from a superior human, or by going completely crazy. How can these things be treated as equals? I see someone has been reading his Gobineau. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Emperor Tullegolar Shaper Member # 7420	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 20:20 Profile Homepage #12 I'm glad someone got the joke. I don't know who Gobineau is, I actually had Thomas Jefferson in mind when I wrote that. Seriously though, serviles are not human. All men are all created equal. However, serviles were literally created inferior. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 \| Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
*i The Establishment Member # 6	written Tuesday, September 26 2006 20:44 Profile #13 quote: All men are all created equal. However, serviles were literally created inferior. There are many who would debate that the concept of equality, superiority, and inferiority applied to humans is artificial and has no objective standpoint. If all men are equal why is it that some are better musicians than others? I think the point is that not all humans are equal in an absolute sense, but deserve to be treated with fundamentally equal amounts of dignity. As for serviles, relative to what measure of inferiority? Care to quantify this inequality so we can actually measure it? The problem is this is virtually impossible because there are so many abstract variables that are inherently impossible to quantify. So we come back to the philosophical question applied to humans. Do all humans deserve to be treated with a basic amount of dignity? Serviles exhibit a lot of human characteristics in their personality. On average some may be "dumber" than the average human. Nonetheless, how can one truly say they are inferior without using a highly restricted definition of personally quality? -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
ReMeMbEr Agent Member # 6581	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 03:30 Profile Homepage #14 I think that a creature, human or not, should be treated as equal when he has enough intelligence to ask for it. EDIT: "Ask" do not involve speaking. Or yes? [ Wednesday, September 27, 2006 03:31: Message edited by: MagmaDragoon ] -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 \| Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Emperor Tullegolar Shaper Member # 7420	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 04:42 Profile Homepage #15 quote: Originally written by i: As for serviles, relative to what measure of inferiority? Care to quantify this inequality so we can actually measure it? quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: They are weak, small brained, greedy, and more often hostile than not. They can’t even learn magic without either help from a superior human, or by going completely crazy. I think we can agree that they are weaker, as they are so small and unable to learn magic on their own. Since they are so small, they must have proportional sized brains (they are not to be confused with midgets, who have small bodies but normal sized heads). They are very greedy, having the audacity to charge you for their services. Here you are trying to save the world, and they put their own interests first. After all, all you ever did for them was give them life. They have no common sense, no sense of humanity. The Takers are horribly violent, and the only reason the Awakened don't kill you outright is because they are too weak and cowardly to do so. Serviles were created to serve, they can not be trusted to have equal rights, because they will abuse them. Dragoon: I don't think asking does involve speaking, which is why we must oppress even their thoughts by shaping fear and the desire to serve deep into them. When all else fails, making them dumber and super-dependant works, as well. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156* \| Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 07:52 Profile Homepage #16 Originally by Emperor Tullegolar: quote: I think we can agree that they are weaker, as they are so small and unable to learn magic on their own. They were specifically shaped not to be able to perform magic. (Which makes you happy, I know, since you want to keep them weak so you can continue to abuse them.) quote: Since they are so small, they must have proportional sized brains (they are not to be confused with midgets, who have small bodies but normal sized heads). Brain size has very little to do with intelligence. And midgets are proportionate to regular humans, just smaller. quote: They are very greedy, having the audacity to charge you for their services. Here you are trying to save the world, and they put their own interests first. So do most of the humans. Human merchants still charge you for items. You have to pay humans to get training in skills, spells, and shaping. They make you perform quests before they will help you. Dikiyoba wonders if Emperor Tullegolar rules a country comprised entirely of oppressed midgets. It would explain a lot. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Amyth Shaper Member # 7472	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 08:27 Profile Homepage #17 My opinion is that serviles should be kept in the servant position, but should be given rights and pay. After all, you pay a human servant or laborer for work, so why not a servile? -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 \| Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
*i The Establishment Member # 6	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 08:38 Profile #18 Seems like a pretty restrictive definition of superiority and inferiority. Would an autistic midget be inferior to a regular human and only be fit to serve? -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Nikki. Shaper Member # 3442	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 08:41 Profile Homepage #19 I think Kel inadvertantly gave away a lot of my beliefs in his post. I sort of see the serviles plight as that of slaves. So I tend to play Awakened. The first play through, it was unintentional, and I played as I would in real life. As for the "inferior" and "small-mindedness" of the serviles... well, I point you to Learned Darian. -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 \| Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Emperor Tullegolar Shaper Member # 7420	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 10:31 Profile Homepage #20 Dikiyoba: Midgets are not proportional small humans, just look at one. You are right, however, in saying brain size probably matters little in determining intelligence, whales come to mind. I suppose it depends on how complex the brain is. Though I have no hard evidence to support this, I would say that serviles are made with simpler brains, as that would be a logical thing for shapers to give them. Nioca: The way I see it, slavery is a perfectly reasonable practice. No, it should not be based on race or gender or anything like that. Rather, people who commit crimes or are otherwise useless to society are the ones that should be enslaved. i: Don't take this the wrong way, but, yes, an autistic midget is simply not as effective as an average human. Are they fit only to serve? I’d say yes, but an autistic midget would probably not even make a decent servant. Oscar Wilde: Learned Darian was not meant to be. It is only because of the stupidity of the Shaper Council that he(she?) and all the Awakened even exist. Darian should die, before more serviles can be contaminated. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156* \| Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 13:24 Profile Homepage #21 Originally by Emperor Tullegolar: quote: Dikiyoba: Midgets are not proportional small humans, just look at one. You are right, however, in saying brain size probably matters little in determining intelligence, whales come to mind. I suppose it depends on how complex the brain is. Though I have no hard evidence to support this, I would say that serviles are made with simpler brains, as that would be a logical thing for shapers to give them. Midget: An extremely small person who is otherwise normally proportioned. I agree that serviles were originally shaped with, and for the most part still have, simpler brains than humans. I believe they get compared to children a few times in the series. But the serviles on Sucia Island (and now spreading to other regions) are different. They had two hundred years of isolation to evolve and learn to be able to think at a much higher level. The problem I have with your arguments is that you are arguing for what should be rather than what is. The serviles of Sucia Island are not the dumb, inferior ones you keep alluding to. They are different. Now, you can believe that the intelligent serviles should be wiped out and everything should return to the way it was. But practically no one else shares that belief. Almost everyone believes that the intelligent serviles ought to be treated more like humans, so arguing that they should continue to be treated like mindless slaves is difficult at best and an incredibly annoying waste of time at worst. Dikiyoba. Edit: Typo. [ Wednesday, September 27, 2006 13:26: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 13:46 Profile Homepage #22 It is notable that Jeff actually changed the set of alternatives as GF went on. The rebels in GF3 are considerably less palatable (more bloodthirsty) than the Awakened of GF1. I suspect the reason for this change is that Jeff himself found the choice too easy in GF1 and wanted to complicate it. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Amyth Shaper Member # 7472	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 14:02 Profile Homepage #23 quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: The way I see it, slavery is a perfectly reasonable practice. No, it should not be based on race or gender or anything like that. Rather, people who commit crimes or are otherwise useless to society are the ones that should be enslaved I'll meet you halfway on the criminals. But people that are useless to society? The only way I could condone that was if they were paid. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 \| Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Wednesday, September 27 2006 14:25 Profile Homepage #24 quote: Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar: Oscar Wilde: Learned Darian was not meant to be. It is only because of the stupidity of the Shaper Council that he(she?) and all the Awakened even exist. Darian should die, before more serviles can be contaminated. Does it bother you at all that your philosophy requires you to destroy all those whose traits you would otherwise find most admirable, just because they happen to be working for the wrong side? -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00