Avernum V ideas

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AuthorTopic: Avernum V ideas
Law Bringer
Member # 335
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If A3 could include Trainspotting and Babylon 5, A5 can include a few of us.

—Alorael, who doesn't think it should, mind you. On the other hand, being able to cut down certain members mercilessly would be very satisfying, wouldn't it?
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7213
Profile Homepage #76
How about NPC's that talk instead of you reading their comments?
I guess your responses would still be numeric choices of reply.
Also the remarks they make before you click on them could be audible as well.
I realize this would increase production costs but I'd be willing to pay more for features like that.
I'm going to buy A5 regardless. I have truly enjoyed A4. The price is right also. Plenty of bang for your buck!
Half the cost of ES4 without having to do major upgrades to run it.
Hmmm. Maybe this suggestion isn't so good after all.

[ Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:59: Message edited by: Micro Phage ]

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General: "What!?! They couldn't hit a Giant from that dist..."
Posts: 181 | Registered: Monday, June 12 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
Profile #77
quote:
Originally written by Micro Phage:

I realize this would increase production costs but I'd be willing to pay more for features like that.
It's not production costs that stop JV from including sound files as dowlnoad size. He can deal with production costs, sounds don't cost much. Many of his fans can't deal with dowload times greater than A3's, much less A4's.

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Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #78
Abominable voice acting is a very bad thing and it's unfortunately very easy to get it stuck into a game. Not paying more for questioable added content sounds good to me.

—Alorael, who is not that fond of voices anyway, and who turns them off if given the choice. What he'd really like is a truly stunning soundtrack for Avernum. By Vivaldi. Collaborating with Mozart. And a thirty-seven fingered pianist.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7213
Profile Homepage #79
Good point. I have 3mb cable and I tend to forget (till broadband goes down and I have to use backup dialup ISP). Broadband isn't readily available in way too many areas and fanbase is worldwide.
Very good point.
Perhaps A5 could stay in the 20mb range and the talking sound package and cost could be an optional upgrade with second download and additional cost. With a discount when purchased together (as with the Hint Book) and could be on cd (a few days snailmail) as well as downloadable.
And could be toggled on and off in Options?
(Heh... did I use the "and" word enough?)

[ Saturday, June 24, 2006 12:27: Message edited by: Micro Phage ]

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Aide: (tugging at General's pant leg from ground..) "Sir! Please get down!"
General: "What!?! They couldn't hit a Giant from that dist..."
Posts: 181 | Registered: Monday, June 12 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7228
Profile #80
Now some of you are going to want to lynch me for this, but... what about music? It'd have to be optional, and he'd have to get it from some kind artist, or a company that sells collections of music, but it'd give something to help add to the mood instead of ambient noise. (Which works fine, by the way. This is just something that came to mind.)

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We all have our crushes. We all have our unrequited loves. They don't make you special. They only make you more ordinary.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Friday, June 16 2006 07:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #81
Someone already brought up music, in the General forum, but it has been mentioned. The response was it would take to much money. So listen to your own music.

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Pass the sauerkraut and chips please.
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6908
Profile #82
quote:
Originally written by Silverking:

Someone already brought up music, in the General forum, but it has been mentioned. The response was it would take to much money. So listen to your own music.
The response was that it also would make too much size for download with dial-up. Though .mid format doesn't take that much space.

P.S. I failed to find a link to that thread.

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9 masks sing in a choir:
Gnome Dwarf Slith
Giant Troll Troglo
Human Nephil Vahnatai
"If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?"

radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1
Posts: 203 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00
Apprentice
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Profile #83
I would really love it if maybe walls could be see-through if there's a character or monster behind it. So many times I've tried ending combat or thinking I was safe because some tiny monster was hidden behind a pillar or a wall.

Also, sometimes clicking on an adjacent sq can be difficult with the angles & placement of other characters.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Tuesday, February 14 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 6401
Profile #84
In A4, all monsters are already shown as red dots on the automap, so it's easy to see whether you've killed them all or not. I'm guessing this will be the same in A5. I find see-through walls in games confusing.

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I think this is really wonderful.
Posts: 147 | Registered: Tuesday, October 18 2005 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 303
Profile #85
quote:
Originally written by adndgamer:

I would really love it if maybe walls could be see-through if there's a character or monster behind it. So many times I've tried ending combat or thinking I was safe because some tiny monster was hidden behind a pillar or a wall.
I've found that the tab button comes in mighty handy during that situation. ;) :cool:

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My name's Solberg. Pronounced Sol-Berg. Exile/Avernum's Greatest LIVING Archmage! I'm sure you've heard of me at some point.
Posts: 385 | Registered: Tuesday, November 20 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7213
Profile Homepage #86
Not to mention that Glorious Cheat Code *shift D* showmeall *ENTER*

PS Is using readily available, published, built in codes, tech, skill, really 'cheating'?
I say NAY. Death to the Luddites! (grin, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk...) (I keep try'n ta t'ink but nuttin happens!)

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Aide: (tugging at General's pant leg from ground..) "Sir! Please get down!"
General: "What!?! They couldn't hit a Giant from that dist..."
Posts: 181 | Registered: Monday, June 12 2006 07:00
BANNED
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Profile #87
all your boats are belong to EXITZONE!!!!!!!

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EDIT except for my sig.!
Posts: 30 | Registered: Wednesday, June 21 2006 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #88
Starman, that joke can only be done so many times before it gets old.

Originally by Micro Phage:

quote:
PS Is using readily available, published, built in codes, tech, skill, really 'cheating'?
Yes, but how you use it depends on whether you should feel guilty or not. "showmeall" is harmless enough but something like "dbugkill" would be less so.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #89
Cheating is a victimless crime. Do whatever makes your game more enjoyable.

—Alorael, whose forums would be more enjoyable with jokes in moderation. Like skribbane! Gimmicks always go better when applied tastefully, not in every single post like this very signature.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
BANNED
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Profile #90
all your jokes are belong to all your base are belong to us!!!!!!

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EDIT except for my sig.!
Posts: 30 | Registered: Wednesday, June 21 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #91
Starman, you've slipped over the line from funny to spammy. Stop posting all your base jokes everywhere where they are in no way relevant.

This is an official and officious warning.

—Alorael, who wonders if totalitarian rule got more complicacted with the addition of an active Jeff.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7213
Profile Homepage #92
quote:
Quoting adndgamer:
I would really love it if maybe walls could be see-through if there's a character or monster behind it. So many times I've tried ending combat or thinking I was safe because some tiny monster was hidden behind a pillar or a wall.

Many times the enemy is behind a wall with openings for archers, which allows you to hit them as well. Or they are hiding from you or to ambush you. And a good defense an enemy can use is a tight spot, well defended by environment, to make it hard for you to attack due to party's varied skills, weapons, spells, visability and range.

The "cheat" (SHIFT d) showmeall (ENTER) is guiltless (for me) since this is a sword and sorcery fantasy adventure game and any or all of your Adventurer Party has Mage, Priest, Warrior skills which imply detecting enemies out of sight or at a distance (techno or mystical).

The sci-fi touch in G3 (genetic manipulation) and the Empire in A4 with Matter Transporter tech, tools and such, is really slick. "Cheats" like *showmeall* and *backtostart* are indispensable tools (to me). And *dbugkill* doesn't seem to apply to A4 but could be handy in A5 for replays. (As in speeding up new games if you wanted to clean up quests and errors from earlier games.)

[ Saturday, June 24, 2006 15:27: Message edited by: Micro Phage ]

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Aide: (tugging at General's pant leg from ground..) "Sir! Please get down!"
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Posts: 181 | Registered: Monday, June 12 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7210
Profile #93
It was me who originally posted the sound/music idea for AV4 and beyond. I don't really get some of these point of views, although I respect the process it must have taken thier minds to come to this conclusion, unless they can't explain thier rationale.

I think the original topic was about AV5 ideas, so to be true to the spirit of the thread...

To the ones who post about how Avernum series is not fantasy, or is a unique fantasy with no ties to fantasy, I have to say you are full of it.
Wands? Swords? Armor? Magic? Come on, these are all classic fantasy ideas, so please jump off the high horse and don't attack people just because they like an idea from some other fantasy set.

Until you have been married for at least 15 years, then I don't think you could really understand the need for variety (joke for the mature).

I don't like continued plots and arcs unless there is a REALLY good reason too. It really cheapens the whole experience when Mr. X who you killed many times before keeps coming back from the dead and you have to fight Mr. X again and again.
I prefer new horizons, after all, lest you forget, the definition of what adventure is - an undertaking usually involving danger and unknown risks; an exciting or remarkable experience.

Its not really an adventure if you know what to expect around every corner, and every character is identical to all the previous. Its becomes repeated boredom. Thats, IMHO, is the single most destructive element to any RPG. Anything that makes you feel like you are exploring the unkown is what is needed for any adventure based plot to succeed. In AV4 I guessed the bad guy really early in the game.

In AV5 (if it's made) I would like to see a complete departure from all old characters and plot ideas. I would love to see more playable races, and new enemies with unique racial abilities, and a clearly thought out leveling system. You have to add feats and skills that actually do something, not just add a percent to do more damage. Am I role playing my character in the world of Avernum? Or, am I roleplaying your book, with just some repetitive tasks to fill time and prolong an obvious plot, so the story doesn't end too soon.

*ducks* knowing intense insulting of intelligence to follow .

[ Sunday, June 25, 2006 05:14: Message edited by: Aaron ]
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sunday, June 11 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7210
Profile #94
I didn't want to make my last post too large so I decided to include ideas for AV5 in this post, in no particular order.

Move far enough forward in time or to a new area in Avernum for all old plots to die a complete death.

Create magic system that has elements to it that can be countered or nullified by another element. Same with the divine based magic. Each type of magic should have an opposite and equal force that balances it. If someone can cast magical damage at me, I should be able to shield myself/others from it, reflect it, absorb it, etc...

Each magical spell/ability should be learnable by the playing characters. No magic should be out of the range of understanding of a magic user of same type or class. (for ex. crystal worms using mind control that you (as a mind control expert) have no way to learn or defend agasint, this shouldn't be in an rpg game).

There should be different types of damage for melee, peircing, slashing, crushing, etc... Monsters should have weaknesses that allow a balanced team to depend on one character or another, and armor should have different degrees of protection for different types of damage. (for ex. Leather does not defend well against crushing damage, but plate does).

Weapons and items should be clearly thought out for character advancement path. If I choose to make a character an expert at Bows, but there is a very poor selection of bows, doesn't that ruin that entire character path? Having so many useless items in a game doesn't make sense, the player will never use it or pick it up, so why waste time with it? Its better to hide useless items then to make a player pick throuh mounds of item trash to find what they want.

Allowing people to make super generalized characters that can end up being completely useless should be avoided with an advancement system that is smart enough to understand what type of character your creating. Feats and skill advancement should be rewarded with more advanced feats and skills being tied to your previous choices. Example - I am a thief/archer, I have advanced flethching skill, I should now be able to choose the ability to poison my arrows (since I am an expert at making them). Abilities should be more than just a percentage of a chance to poison a person with arrows, they are abilities and should always be on and whether they work or not should be determined by the monsters weaknesses and strenghts.

Thieves should have some kind of stealth variable, just becuase one of my party can be seen shouldn't automatically make my crime seen. If my thief is an expert at stealth and hiding, the thief should be able to hide and steal something out of sight regardless of other pary memebers visibility. Also, they should be able to sneak up on people in combat.

There should be the ability to use either keyboard or mouse without having to switch back and forth, or to use both (one hand on the keyboard, and one on the mouse). In other words, ergonmics should be considered when designing the interface.

Pack animals! Why can almost every Avernite own beasts of burden but your own characters can't, or allowing characters to have storage areas (or purchase them).

Item crafting! If other Avernites can make wands out of sticks, or potions out of herbs, then why can't one of your characters specialize in that too? I say this within reason, creating kites from string, wood, and cloth is not relevant to the spirit of the RPG or plot, so item creation with a purpose is all I am saying.

Music? I know, it was said its too expensive, or the nice reply of "Use headphones and listen to your own crap" is not a constructive answer. There are plenty of freeware, royalty free music and songs, really... Do you know how to use a search engine?

Sounds could be enhanced, after all, if your not going to go for the "WOW!" factor with graphics maybe you could do it with sound immersion. Hearing the same creature screech and continous dripping looped over and over and over again really destroys any type of immersion your imagination can muster. There are plenty of royalty free sounds, and sounds that have no copy rights, so saying that its a price issue doesn't make sense.

Thats all I can say for now, I got more but I have to get something to eat, lol.

[ Sunday, June 25, 2006 06:51: Message edited by: Aaron ]
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sunday, June 11 2006 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #95
quote:
Music? I know, it was said its too expensive, or the nice reply of "Use headphones and listen to your own crap" is not a constructive answer. There are plenty of freeware, royalty free music and songs, really... Do you know how to use a search engine?
Don't be so demeaning or you will find yourself gone quickly. The other issue is download time. Music files tend to be large and the fanbase tends to have internet connections that are slow.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #96
Aaron, most of your suggestions are really valid (except the sounds and music ones), but most of them are just not going to happen.

-Ergonomic design? Jeff has enough to worry about when it comes to making the game playable, so I don't see why he'd worry about lazy people who can't be bothered to use both he keyboard and mouse.

-Pack animals? They're called "a character maxed out on strength". And besides, how long would a mule last against a drake?

-Stealth has become more of a factor lately, particularly when sneaking through fields of pylons. The rest could probably be addressed with a check for Nimble Fingers. So that could work, if Jeff chooses to put it in A5.

-Item crafting... mabe not. People would just cheat to give themselves a large Item Crafting stat, just like they did for Potion Making (honestly, how many people trained it all the way up to 17 w/o the character editor?).

-An advancement system that's smarter than the player? No. It takes the fun out of designing a character when the game does it all for you.

-Items tailored to advancement paths... no. Way too much work for Jeff, and too mundane for us. The scattering of "useless" items around the game world reminds the party that they're not the only living people/slith/nephils in the world. And besides, some people might really like that stone short sword.

-Melee damage changes... perhaps. I get the feeling that Jeff has been working on that, given the general combat-heavy feel of A4. It might happen.

-PCs able to learn every ability/spell? Okay, fine... just not all at once. For instance, the demon-summoning spell that Nociduas uses... that shouldn't be accessible for a long, long time. It's a big issue for game balance, though, so this idea could be trouble.

-New magic system? Maybe, but not that one. Something more like the excess of spells found in Exile would be better. Your system would be really frustrating to anyone who chose to specialize in one type of magic, as soon as they run into that one monster who can't be hit by it.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #97
quote:
Originally written by Aaron:

[Move far enough forward in time or to a new area in Avernum for all old plots to die a complete death.

Create magic system that has elements to it that can be countered or nullified by another element. Same with the divine based magic. Each type of magic should have an opposite and equal force that balances it. If someone can cast magical damage at me, I should be able to shield myself/others from it, reflect it, absorb it, etc...

Each magical spell/ability should be learnable by the playing characters. No magic should be out of the range of understanding of a magic user of same type or class. (for ex. crystal worms using mind control that you (as a mind control expert) have no way to learn or defend agasint, this shouldn't be in an rpg game).

There should be different types of damage for melee, peircing, slashing, crushing, etc... Monsters should have weaknesses that allow a balanced team to depend on one character or another, and armor should have different degrees of protection for different types of damage. (for ex. Leather does not defend well against crushing damage, but plate does).

Weapons and items should be clearly thought out for character advancement path. If I choose to make a character an expert at Bows, but there is a very poor selection of bows, doesn't that ruin that entire character path? Having so many useless items in a game doesn't make sense, the player will never use it or pick it up, so why waste time with it? Its better to hide useless items then to make a player pick throuh mounds of item trash to find what they want.

Allowing people to make super generalized characters that can end up being completely useless should be avoided with an advancement system that is smart enough to understand what type of character your creating. Feats and skill advancement should be rewarded with more advanced feats and skills being tied to your previous choices. Example - I am a thief/archer, I have advanced flethching skill, I should now be able to choose the ability to poison my arrows (since I am an expert at making them). Abilities should be more than just a percentage of a chance to poison a person with arrows, they are abilities and should always be on and whether they work or not should be determined by the monsters weaknesses and strenghts.

Thieves should have some kind of stealth variable, just becuase one of my party can be seen shouldn't automatically make my crime seen. If my thief is an expert at stealth and hiding, the thief should be able to hide and steal something out of sight regardless of other pary memebers visibility. Also, they should be able to sneak up on people in combat.

Pack animals! Why can almost every Avernite own beasts of burden but your own characters can't, or allowing characters to have storage areas (or purchase them).

Item crafting! If other Avernites can make wands out of sticks, or potions out of herbs, then why can't one of your characters specialize in that too? I say this within reason, creating kites from string, wood, and cloth is not relevant to the spirit of the RPG or plot, so item creation with a purpose is all I am saying.QB]
No. Jeff moved pretty far into the future with A4. If you mean no old enemies, than sure, but abondoning all his old characters? I like talking to people who knew my old characters. I especially like talking to Tor.

A magic system like that is a bit to traditonal. I like Jeff's system better because there are only two categories.

Learning spells can take years and years. Especially splells like Mind Control or Create Portal. I think it's already unrealistic that we can just buy spells from a mage and have mastered them in seconds.

The damage idea would have Jeff completly redesigning his weapons and armor system. Not saying I wouldn't like it, but it would add to download time.

If you choose to make an expert at bows then your a fool. Long distance attacks, not counting magic, are not meant to be used as a main attack. Swords and pole weapons are the kind used to attack. Bows and javelins are used for when you can't reach them.

First there isn't likely going to be arrows in this game either. Second if there was you wouldn't be able to make them. Third the system you described for poison is already used.

Hey, guess what! There is a way, close the doors so no one can see you!

Pack animals, never going to happen. Item storage areas, already here. You can dump your junk wherever you want.

Item crafting. That's a possibility. Sadly Jeff took potion making out of A4 though, it might come back.

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Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Aaron:

Move far enough forward in time or to a new area in Avernum for all old plots to die a complete death.
I like the continuity provided by keeping the same setting and some of the same characters. (Of course, keeping the same plot and villain is not what I mean here)

quote:
Create magic system that has elements to it that can be countered or nullified by another element. Same with the divine based magic. Each type of magic should have an opposite and equal force that balances it. If someone can cast magical damage at me, I should be able to shield myself/others from it, reflect it, absorb it, etc...
There are already various types of magic, that you can have resistence to in varying degrees. I'm not convinced that shoehorning everything into opposite pairs of elements is a good thing.

quote:
Each magical spell/ability should be learnable by the playing characters. No magic should be out of the range of understanding of a magic user of same type or class.
Why? It's already unrealistic enough that an NPC mage can spend a lifetime researching some magic, and then a bunch of adventurers can pick it up in five minutes by skimming through a dusty tome in a monster-infested dungeon.

quote:
(for ex. crystal worms using mind control that you (as a mind control expert) have no way to learn or defend agasint, this shouldn't be in an rpg game).
"shoudn't be in an rpg" is a pretty strong claim. Care to justify it? I don't see why a human has to be capable of doing anything that every other species can do. Anyhow, in A4 you can defend against that sort of thing.

quote:
There should be different types of damage for melee, peircing, slashing, crushing, etc... Monsters should have weaknesses that allow a balanced team to depend on one character or another
It's already the case that monsters have weaknesses that allow a balanced team to depened on one character or another. Sometimes magic works best, sometimes melee, and sometimes missiles. It seems to me that adding in a load of different melee types like that just means that fighters have to carry round a bunch of assorted weapons, or you get situations where you don't have a character that specialises in the spiked morningstars that are monster X's only vulnerability.

quote:
Weapons and items should be clearly thought out for character advancement path. If I choose to make a character an expert at Bows, but there is a very poor selection of bows, doesn't that ruin that entire character path?
There are plenty of bows in A4.
quote:
Having so many useless items in a game doesn't make sense, the player will never use it or pick it up, so why waste time with it? Its better to hide useless items then to make a player pick throuh mounds of item trash to find what they want.
I think useless items can add to the flavour. If you walk into someone's home, you're going to find clothes and plates, not platemail and demon-slaying scimiters. And unless you're obsessive-compulsive, you can just ignore them (or at most quickly mouseover in the pickup screen to see what they cost).

quote:
Allowing people to make super generalized characters that can end up being completely useless should be avoided with an advancement system that is smart enough to understand what type of character your creating.
Allowing people to make jacks-of-all-trades doesn't seem to me to be a problem, unless they are similar in power to specialists until it's too late to specialise, then become useless. If it's a bad idea to make thief-archer-fighter-mage-priest, you'll find out pretty quickly that you don't have enough skill points to go round, and specialise. And it doesn't need a psychic advancement system.

quote:
Thieves should have some kind of stealth variable, just becuase one of my party can be seen shouldn't automatically make my crime seen. If my thief is an expert at stealth and hiding, the thief should be able to hide and steal something out of sight regardless of other pary memebers visibility. Also, they should be able to sneak up on people in combat.
As if stealing stuff wasn't already easy and munchkinny enough...

quote:
There should be the ability to use either keyboard or mouse without having to switch back and forth, or to use both (one hand on the keyboard, and one on the mouse). In other words, ergonmics should be considered when designing the interface.
At last, something I agree with.

quote:
Pack animals! Why can almost every Avernite own beasts of burden but your own characters can't, or allowing characters to have storage areas (or purchase them).
You can have storage areas in A4. Just put down some items somewhere and call it a storage area.

quote:
Item crafting! If other Avernites can make wands out of sticks, or potions out of herbs, then why can't one of your characters specialize in that too?
Exile had alchemy. It was pretty useless. And I want to go out adventuring, not sit around at home making stuff.

quote:
Music?... Do you know how to use a search engine?
Yes.
(second result, google helpfully provides the relevant excerpt

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Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
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Yet another thought about Options menu in A5:

How about brightness/contrast adjustability that effects game only.

I've seen this feature before but can't remember where, or what they called it.

I realize Avernum is an underground civilization and many areas are pretty dark, but I usually keep my monitor set so it's not glaring in my face and pushing the hardware.

However, since becoming totally addicted to A4 I've changed my monitor settings to improve visability and just let everything else I do on that machine be kinda bright. It spends most of it's time (and mine) in Avernum anyhow.

Can brightness, "light level", whatever, be adjustable in options menu in A5 ?

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Aide: (tugging at General's pant leg from ground..) "Sir! Please get down!"
General: "What!?! They couldn't hit a Giant from that dist..."
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