Avernum V ideas
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, August 19 2006 00:25
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quote:Well, that depends on whether you want her to live or die, now doesn't it? :P -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
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written Saturday, August 19 2006 04:51
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Hehehe.. I killed Rentar at the end. The ending is quite alright but what will Starrus say if you didn't kill her? -------------------- Oh you're a cute Adze-Haakai you are.. Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7392
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written Saturday, August 19 2006 05:34
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I guess I'll make a save right before the choices so I can know what happens to either choices. At least there's multiple endings, makes longer games and better playing experience. :D -------------------- If there was only one last shaper alive on Sucia Island... ~Formerly known as Genexile~ Posts: 10 | Registered: Wednesday, August 16 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, August 19 2006 08:37
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Not really. As long as you make the right decisions the first few times you encounter Rentar-Ihrno you can save just before the final fight with her and see all three easily. —Alorael, who likes Starrus's response if you let Rentar live and go free as long as she goes somewhere else. Ah, vindictiveness. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, August 19 2006 16:59
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The only bad thing is because A4 frequently crashes the first time through I killed R-I and then it crashed before I could see any ending. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 2153
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written Thursday, August 24 2006 10:09
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Hmm, some thoughts on this: 1) It has already been said, but I didn't like the Geneforge dressed up as Exile feel the game had. I think I'd be much happier if A5 went back to a distinctly tile based map. Sure its probably a step backwards in terms of graphics but I don't think anyone played Exile/Avernum becuase they thought the graphics were great. The tile pictures had their own unique charm. 2) Rentar was a major character in A2 and A3 - A4 was overkill with her being the badguy yet again. But I think there could still be a place for her in A5 as a minor character (kind of like that old master potion brewer lady whose name I can't remember for the life of me) 3) A5 gives the chance to do what A4 didn't. Tie up all the lose ends that were lying around in A2-3 (or rather, Exile 2-3). I don't even remember them now since its been such a long time, but the main one that does come to mind is the Slith and their brethern in the deeper caves. 4) Bring back those cool spells from Exile. Perhaps its my bad memory, but as a general rule it seems each progression onwards involves pruning spells from the selection. In a way I do see the logic behind it - I mean, nobody REALLY had a use for spells like Force Barrier or Fire Barrier.... or Quickfire. But even though they're effectively useless I had immense amusement from using and abusing them in odd ways :) (I remember dispatching of a random outdoor encounter by setting quickfire to the place and walling myself in with barriers) 5) Again, faulty memory is probably at play here but do feel free to being back minor characters that most of us have forgotten about. In particular, I would like to see Aimee (From Exile 1-2 who used to live in the North West prior to the Empire's invasion) make a return from whatever world she went off to and become a more significant character. Granted, she may be too old now but you could always say she discovered other means of prolonging her life without the painful side effects Solberg seemed to be suffering. Or perhaps she trained an apprentice, died and her apprentice is bringing her back to be buried. Doesn't really matter how shes worked back in but I'd really like to see her around A5 and her method of departure leaves alot of scope for new material related to her return as well. 6) Avoid making A5 a clone of A4, which was a clone of A3. I obviously exaggurate, but its somewhat annoying when the crux of the storylines are too similar. 7) Include a character editor. Something similar to the one we got in Exile 2 would be really nice. 8) Movement/Map thing. Geneforge engine aside, the key difference I see between A3 and A4 is the use of one huge map in A4 vs the "overmap" (for lack of a better word) and seperate locations within the "overmap" which you visit in E3. I think the concept of having everything on one huge map is interesting and might have some merit, but as A4 demonstrated, its probably going to be incredibly difficult to get a map huge enough to get the same feel as you would in E3. The fact that the distance between two cities was often shorter than the width of some cities was somewhat annoying (see overall map of A4, where the great castle is 1/3 of the great cave). And if you make it huge enough to have it feel nice, then you have a problem where the distance between cities may be uncomfortably far (which could probably be addressed with horses and whatnot), but perhaps the larger problem is what to stuff into all that empty space. You can crawl through only so many dungeons between cities before it gets repetitive and you want to get back to the storyline..... So, i'm not saying that a having everything on a huge map is bad but there are some issues that need to be overcome for it to feel good. 9) Bring back food and poison. OK, the hunger thing was somewhat excessive in E2 (I felt its effects came on too fast), but as a concept it was pretty good. It meant food wasn't completely useless. As for poison, I feel that could be expanded on. Remember how we used to be able to apply poisons onto weapons? We could expand on that. Bring back the skill, and have different things we can apply onto our weapons. Not just straight up poison damage, but perhaps slowing, or paralysis. It could help pull the potionmaking skill out of irrelevence. 10) Spells/Experience. Specifically, make it so that if Sug summons say a lizard and the lizard kills something, Sug gains experience as if he was the one who killed it. Perhaps make summons alittle cheaper - something to turn summoning back into a useful spell. Same thing for arcane blow. For its cost, it was useless for anything other than sounding good. 11) Lockpick skill + lockpick spell synergy. It sounds good at first, but I feel mages shouldnt really need to invest copious amounts of skill points into a lockpicking skill - especially if you arn't informed about this when you're creating characters. A guy that picks locks shouldn't necessarily have to know lots of magic in order to unpick the strongest locks. Perhaps have it so that the spell gets rid of magically locked stuff/magical protections on locks and the weaker normal locks, but stronger locks still require normal pick locking (after having whatever magical protection on it dealt with) 12) The wait 40 turns option was really cool when you needed to pass time by in a dungeon for whatever reason. Much better than being forced to click around at furious speeds. 13) I guess this goes without saying, but try and balance skills out more as difficult as it probably is. I never got into A4 enough to explore the skills out but it seems fairly clear from the comments of others that some skills are simply a waste of points compared to others. Pathfinding becomes more useful once swamps are brought back in (perhaps make it some areas are only accessable with enough pathfinding? Eg, allows you to find a path through a thick patch of trees or something). 14) The random weapons quests in Exile 3 were pretty nifty. 15) Random Addendum: I want to see the Anamas Church and the Church of the Divine Lucre (was that its name? I'm talking about those guys obsessed with money) duke it out. And maybe an unusual plague could spread amongst the divine lucre members - for example, their high ranking members could turn into solid gold. Midas style! And for the Anamas a huge scandal would suit them nicely. :) Posts: 24 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Thursday, August 24 2006 12:35
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I have some sympathy with most of this, but not all of it. For instance, I think the Geneforge engine and look and feel are here to stay. I am also quite happy for lockpicking to be rolled up with the mage skill - it makes you choose between spell energy and skill points. And I really quite liked the continuous mapping in A4, who cares if Silvar and Fort Avernum are a little bit close together, it just made the world so much more believable. I often used to wish Geneforge was done the same way. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, August 24 2006 12:57
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quote:No it doesn't! Making lockpicking and unlock spells independent of each other makes you choose between spell energy and skill points, because it makes you choose between having a thief and having a mage. Making them reinforce each other makes you use both if you want to open every door. Of course, the disadvantage of making them independent is that everyone has a mage, so there's not much point having a thief. On balance, I think A4's way of handling lockpicking is better, but not for the reason you claim. quote:Having Gnass, Blosk and Dharmon all be within a few paces of each other makes the world more believable? [ Thursday, August 24, 2006 13:05: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, August 24 2006 14:50
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I'm not quite sure what you mean by tile map or tile graphics. A4 is just as much a matter of isometric square grids as A1, A2, and A3. Even Geneforge is actually tile-based, although it's less obvious. If you mean graphics, well, the terrain is still tiles and everything else is still sprites. —Alorael, who doesn't see what the Anama and the Church of the Divine Lucre have to fight about. The latter has no mages and the former doesn't particularly care about money. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, August 24 2006 17:51
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Replying to Telanos: 4. Fire and force barriers were useful for two things. Containing quickfire if you were fast enough and were in the right place. The other was to deflect those moving blocks so they didn't crush you. 9. Food is still around as a source of healing for those that want it. Poison is not as useful since most monsters die before it takes effect. There are still a few items that duplicate it like the oozing blade. 11. It's buried in the instructions, bug Jeff did mention the change on combining tool use and unlock spell. 12. The wait 40 turns isn't needed since you can't get back health/spell points by using it any more. 13. Some of the lower level skills were useful like parry and riposte. Lethal blow is just too hard to train up to in a real game. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 2153
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written Friday, August 25 2006 01:11
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quote:Well yes I'm aware of that. To clarify, when I say tile graphics I mean it reminds me of board games where you have distinct squares and characters on those squares. I guess I found the whole setup charming, whereas even though the Geneforge graphics are "better", its an attempt to be something it clearly is not.... I just don't feel as taken in with the Geneforge graphics. quote:You have a point. But I'm sure it can't be too hard to manufacture a reason for them to duke it out. In this particular case, I'm less concerned witih small details like how they get into a fight (someone else can solve that) and more interested in the coolness of having the two loony faiths at war ;) quote:I had forgotten about moving blocks, but in short the barrier spells were essentially useless - I am basically ignoring specialised/contrived circumstances and focusing on general game applicability. quote:Yes, food does heal, but the amount is so small as to be insignificant. Who can really say they lug around food to heal themselves when there are potions galore, not to mention spells available? As for poison, I concede that as a problem that needs to be overcome for poison to become useful - but then, the same can be said of acid and its corresponding spell. Perhaps re-introduce monsters with high resistance to physical and magical damage, and vulnrability to poison? I realise of course, this brings us closer and closer back to E2. quote:Yeah well.... what can I say. I jump into the game and learn by tinkering. I read the manual only when I'm forced to. :) quote:16. Bring back slow HP/SP regeneration quote:Too long ago for me to remember much and in any case I never really explored the skills too much. I'm simply going by what I remember was mentioned in the forums. But going on what you mentioned, I don't think there should be skills like Lethal blow which are there but never attainable to any practical degree. All covered under balancing the skills out. Posts: 24 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Friday, August 25 2006 14:05
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quote:Now I'm not entirely sure what I was trying to say there, but clearly what I actually wrote makes no sense at all. Let's just leave it that for some reason, which I can't quite put my finger on but which involves character building, I prefer the mage/lockpicking combination. It's even better in Geneforge with living tools. Edit: fixing the quote [ Friday, August 25, 2006 14:07: Message edited by: Micawber ] -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3933
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written Saturday, August 26 2006 01:19
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though ive never really played a4, i prefer the idea of combining lock picking and mage skill. ive always neglected thieves since they are utterly useless and annoying. i HATE living tools, though. -------------------- OH MY GOD IT'S THE FUNKY ****!!! Posts: 425 | Registered: Wednesday, January 28 2004 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Saturday, August 26 2006 02:36
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I think living tools are pretty awesome. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, August 26 2006 14:35
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I'd like them better if only I could say the phrase "living tool" without giggling. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
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written Saturday, August 26 2006 18:47
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Why do you giggle when you say "living tools"? And it sucks when the mage spell unlock requires high lockpicking skill for it to work efficiently.. -------------------- Oh you're a cute Adze-Haakai you are.. Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, August 26 2006 18:58
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Actually for unlocking doors the spell benefits more from spellcraft and other mage skills. Tool use is only for traps and if you don't mind the damage then you only need a little to finish the game. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, August 26 2006 19:15
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Unlock gets a boost from Tool Use, but I successfully had two separate characters as my mage and my priest and still managed to unlock just about everything up to and including Athron's door. —Alorael, who can't explain why living tools are funny. Just hang around on Spiderweb long enough and satori will strike. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6346
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written Saturday, August 26 2006 19:42
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quote:Along those lines, I would love to see a return to the surface. Something involving the rebels would be nice. Though exploring the Slith more would be interesting. and bring back the world map, if that's even technically possible any more. Posts: 5 | Registered: Monday, September 26 2005 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7333
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written Saturday, August 26 2006 22:29
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I thought the issues with Sliths and Nephils was pretty much resolved. They live alongside the humans in peace in Avernum and going by the Empire's more tolerant stance at the end of A3, they're probably more welcome on the surface as well. Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Saturday, August 26 2006 23:00
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quote:See this dictionary definition of "tool". Thuryl was being vulgar. As in the insult "you're a bit of a tool"... -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, August 26 2006 23:36
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You were being vulgar. I was being suggestive. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, August 27 2006 10:30
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If you really want to, you can start making many elements of Spiderweb games questionable. In fact, with enough effort, you can make just about anything questionable. —Alorael, who never hopes to have to choose between Angband's rod of probing and Geneforge's rod of succor. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, August 27 2006 18:14
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quote:Or D&D's Immovable Rod, which gets even more suspicious when you realise it's listed in the same magic items section as the Bag of Holding and the Portable Hole... Okay, so my ulterior motive in replying was to quote your current PDN in this thread for posterity. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, August 27 2006 20:34
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Even better considering that at the time you posted I'd already changed it. Thank the UBB for delays! —Alorael, who never caught the bag of holding, but the other ones were noticed. As, of course, were the rods (and wands) of wonder, rods lordly migh, rods of splendort, and the redoubtable Wand of Unusual Results Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |