Profile for Hamilton G. Phantamos

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Should Geneforge have been a pure sci-fi game? in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Wednesday, November 1 2006 08:12 Profile #5
I think it works better the way it is. A pure sci-fi game wouldn't necessarily be worse but the concept of a medieval, magic based society stumbling on ways to manipulate DNA with magic makes it more original. The way I see it, it's pretty much how life would be if alchemy had turned out to be a valid scientific theory.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Friday, September 22 2006 07:34 Profile #127
Now that the discusson is limited to people with a more sane disposition, I refer back to my earlier point: technology and research in and of itself isn't inherently bad, but research based on dubious goals and ambitions will always have negative consequences. The people (in-game) who want to build Geneforges aren't doing it because they want to advance mankind into a new era but for their own selfish ends while those who rather see such research banned and all of its products destroyed understand the motivation is based on greed and lust for power rather than a genuine desire to use shaping to benefit human beings.

You can argue about whether Shapers do this only to maintain the status quo that keeps them in power or they do it because they are genuinely motivated to prevent humankind from destroying itself with Shaping technology, but it's inarguable that if they DIDN'T do anything, life could be a lot worse for everybody. Their philosophy and regime is far from perfect, but it's a far better alternative than allowing any megalomaniacal crackpot to form a cult and build a Geneforge to transform themselves into its "god."
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Friday, September 15 2006 08:46 Profile #77
quote:
Why is the U.S. the only country that can have nuclear weapons? The way I see it if they have them everybody should. Its none of their business if Korea has nuclear weapons. Is it the worlds business? Yes. But the US getting all pissed because somebody else has certain weapons is stupid.
The reason the US gets pissed that a totalitarian communist regime that doesn't respect the civil or even basic human rights of its citizens studying neuclear weaponary is because its dimunitive megalomaniacal tyrant with a Napolean complex is one of the few people insane and stupid enough to use such technology without concern for consequence or retaliation. That and the fact that the US and Russia have gone through great pains to disarm and dismantle their stockpiles, and the prospect of unstable states getting their hands on such dangerous technology just to play "me too" is bad for everybody, not just the US.

quote:
You say that might makes right governments don't lead to progress? I'll use your own examples: Hitler, he brought Germany out of an economic recession that was far worse than the American Great Depression. Stalin, he brought all farm land under control of the state, causing many peasants to lose their farming jobs. Those peasants then moves to the cities and, using the resulting urbanization, Stalin started the Industrial Revolution in Russia. Mao did something similar, he transformed China from a medieval state to a world industrial power. Conquistadors, they rid the world of the backwards society of the Incas and Aztecs, bringing new technology and ideas to those forsaken lands. Inquisition and Saddam: well, you can't always get it right.
Wow. Where do I even begin with this? First of all, Hitler ended teh depression at the expense of the "undesirables;" if you round up all the Jews, mentally ill, homosexual, Gypsies, and ethnic minorities and seize their assets, it's easy to get money for nothing. That, and shifting the economy into the development of a war machine allows you to build plenty of tanks and fightercraft but it doesn't do much for the average citizen. Stalin ran Russia into the ground and created a cult of personality that didn't dare question his judgement, at least loud enough to be heard, unless you wanted to be taken to the Pogroms by the KGB. Mao's national brainwashing only managed to ruin China's cultural history and growth. I don't know what world industrial power you're talking about -- China is still in the process of transitioning from a developing nation and besides a handful of cities, is mostly rural. The Incas and Aztecs were just as "civilized" as their European counterparts, the only difference being they didn't have the guns or immunity to small pox neccesary to write history from their perspective.

No nation based on drastic social upheaval has ever lasted more than two generations. If research into the Geneforge was opened up and rebllion was encouraged according to your "philosophy," whatever would be left of humanity in Geneforge would live in a barely habitable wasteland, split into tribes warring over secrets and information that would allow their sect to build a better Geneforge than their enemies and crush them so their will reigns supreme. Nothing can flourish in a world of endless war. Technology actually slows during war because the focus is shifted from a fundamental understanding of a field to the fastest and most applicable use to deter or conquer you enemies.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Thursday, September 14 2006 10:08 Profile #67
quote:
As for overthrowing the government leading to anarchy, this is simply not true. In the year 1992, the government of the United States of America was overthrown, and a new leader was proclaimed. Tullegolite government would be the same way, only you would vote with violence rather than a hanging-chad or whatever. Barbaric? Yes. But I believe it is fitting to the world of Geneforge.
There's a big difference between actually overthrowing a government and selecting a new democratically elected leader. Even if the presidents, supreme court justices, senators, and other officials of the US hold only temporary and replaceable positions, it's not quite the same thing as hunting down every member of the aristocracy and putting them under a guillotine during the French Revolution. Also, even IF a policy of "might makes right" was acceptable, there's absolutely no safeguard that those with the power to impose their will act in the best interests of all or that it will lead to a society that values advancement. Real world examples such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Saddam Hussein, the conquistadors, and the Spanish Inquisition show this, just to name the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

quote:
As for the Cold War, it did not apply strictly to nuclear weapons, though they tended to take the spotlight. The Cold War was really just two nations constantly trying to upstage one another with new weapons and technology, and it ended. And now there is a clear leader in world politics. The Tullegolite government would be the same: periods of warfare spaced out with periods of peace in between. Similar to the European system from the 18th through 20th centuries, the balance of power That's horribly backwards, you say? True. But again, I find it fitting to the world of Geneforge.
The point you're missing is that the Cold War and nuclear proliferation left a legacy that future generations have no other choice in facing. Many of the dismantled and recalled warheads are missing and now in the hands of terrorists or unstable political states. Even the ones that can be accounted for have half lifes of millions of years, and there's no where to neatly dispose of them so they don't become "someone else's problem" before that time comes. Geneforges are similar: they are hard to produce, dangerous, and require large amounts of unhealthy energy and noxious chemicals to maintain. Also it's impossible to keep the information from falling into "the wrong hands" once an actual policy of researching and developing them becomes accepted. All it takes is a dedicated faction of maladjusted, politically dissident individuals with the enrgy and resources to develop their own Geneforges and use them to their own ends. It's the same thing as Iran, Syria, and North Korea having nuclear weapons, or Saddam Hussein researching biological and chemical weapons. Already bad technology made even worse by being in the hands of very bad people.

The idea of allowing Geneforges because they're "cool" or for all the nifty powers they can give is like opening Pandora's box because it looks pretty. Allowing people to have access to such power or even restricting it to those "meritous" to receive it is putting too much faith in the ability of humans to resist abusing that power and is rolling the dice with armegeddon.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Tuesday, September 12 2006 04:42 Profile #61
Tullegolar, while I doubt I'd have worry about hearing you say that to my face, I assure you, I am no coward.

There's nothing "cowardly" about thinking about all of the consequences to a particular path in technology; it's a practical, rational application of theory and research. Rushing to use new methods and technology thinking it's a "miracle science" that will revolutionize our lives without adverse effect is the same line of thinking that gave us nuclear waste, global warming, deforestation, carcinogens, and any of the other environmental concerns we face. There is no "miracle technology," even in a fantasy world where magic is real. Every human action has a cost and a benefit and a sincere, intelligent pursuit of technologyacknowledges this and deeply considers the consequences before advancing. There a lot of issues that are unpredictable and that have to be dealt with as they arise, but in terms of the Geneforge, it's well known that it tends to

A)drive people crazy

or

B)fill them with more power than they were meant to handle, and an overwhelming urge to abuse that power.

A society where everyone has the power to overthrow the government doesn't lead to prosperity, it leads to anarchy and chaos as different factions try to assert their dominance over the others. I don't know what history YOU'RE referencing, but all the history I know of points to infighting, political instability, and the eventual decline of a civilization resulting from opposing sides "fighting it out" to see who deserves to lead.

Also, if calling the Soviet's bluff during the Cuban Missile Crisis was a simple as you claim, why did the Cold War continue well into the 80s, and didn't effectively end until the Soviet economy finally crumbled? The Cold War could have ended with a fizzle once we saw they weren't really ready to launch their warheads at a moment's notice. Yet the tension and paranoia carried on for almost another 30 years, peaking right before the end in the Reagan administration. Any good scientist or engineer will tell you you should always err on the side of caution. Recklessly pursuing a field of study and betting against a catastrophe or playing chicken with someone daring them to abuse it isn't bold or courageous: it's outright stupidity.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Character Names in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Sunday, September 3 2006 15:50 Profile #45
I have a rotgroth named Betelguese and a drakon named Sauron. I named my Shaper "Essex" after Nathaniel Essex, Mr. Sinister from X-Men. Creating an army of dispoable minions that obey your every whim reminded me of something Mr. Sinister would do.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Sunday, September 3 2006 15:43 Profile #43
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

My dear Chairface, I would never advocate the ways of the Takers, I was merely using them as an example.
Okay, granted.

quote:
I believe the shapers should be overthrown, but not be creations. That would be ludicrous. Nor am I a Barzite because I would not grant powers to any idiot passing by, either.
I actually agree to this.

quote:
I believe shaper secrets should be available to the strongest and smartest, for they are the ones most likely improve on the methods currently in practice. The society should also be able to evolve, and experiments should be made public to avoid repetition of mistakes and so they they are not left behind to grow out of hand unchecked.
Agreed, but there's no real point to make this information "public." Only Shapers with sufficient skill and the potential to repeat such experiments should be given clearance to this information. The average farmer or sailor could probably care less about dangerous incidents, other than possibly making them more superstitious and paranoid.

quote:
I suppose this makes me a Tullegolite.
Okay, whatever floats your boat.

quote:
If nuclear weapons weren't proliferated, war between the United States and the Soviet Union would have been inevitable. Neither side wanted to attack the other due to the fear of the power of such weapons and, thus, major conflicts were avoided.
This is false for a variety of reasons. I am by no means a Cold War historian but it's generally well known that the threat of annihilation was seen as "imminent" for over 50 years, engendering a culture of paranoia, xenophobia, and blind nationalism on both sides. Also, we never fought a war directly with the USSR but we fought them by proxy with governments that were either tacitly or explicitly supported by Soviet funding simply for adopting a communist government: Viet Nam, Korea, Cuba, and many other US planned insurrections/coups throughout the Third World. If an actual coventional war had broke up between the superpowers it's debateable if they would have eventually been forced to reach a compromise, but it's only speculation in hindsight. Even the prospect of conventional war is highly unlikely due to an all out invasion being disadvantageous to either side due to their geographic separation. In fact, you could probably assert that without nuclear weapons to puff their chests out with, the US and USSR would have been forced to have a tense and hostile relationship, but ultimately one where there was no perceived threat of instant annihilation on either side, allowing a more relaxed, open minded society.

The fact that many US cover operations from that time period are now open information to be studied allows us to learn from the past and use the follies of a previous generation to gain a valuable moral lesson; however, while we can analyze and try to avoid such volatile stand offs between governments in the future, and the study of nuclear technology has useful applications despite the fact it can be used for evil much easier than for good doesn't mean the average individual should be allowed to have blueprints and instructions on how to create a Cold War era warhead. Actually, the only reason this is harmless and not an issue in the real world is because you need means of production to manufacture a warhead; any simpleton who can read and chant can start abusing magical abilities instantly in the world of Geneforge.

quote:
The same can be said for the power of a geneforge. Who is going to attack someone with supreme power? Even better if multiple people have this power, because they will balance each other out.
Or they will go to war with each other, leaving devastation in their wake and leaving those without the power or any allegiance in the cross fire in their quest to annihilate or dominate their rivals. That seems much more likely.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Friday, September 1 2006 06:16 Profile #32
quote:
I do believe it is part of Taker doctrine to allow non-shaper humans to live, provided it is under drakon control. Yes, the goal is to overthrow the shapers, but is it not a worthy one? Surely one so terrified of shaper ways as you can see the good in this. As for collateral damage, it is regrettable but unavoidable. For the record, I am not a Taker, but I do not agree with the Shaper Council’s ways, either.
So in other words trade a tyranny of Shapers for a tyranny of Drakons. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

quote:
With this mindset we would still be in the dark ages. You can not win an argument if you insist that innovation is futile. Without it, we are nothing.
Without innovation we would be nothing. However, that innovation has always been mindful of the consquences and the impact on human life, or at least regretful if they are negative. The very men who developed atomic weaponary in WWII campaigned against its proliferation after the fact. Besides, none of our innovations have involved creating superhuman mutants driven insane by overwhelming power. You can't rush headlong into research on potentially dangerous technology without first stopping to think about the possible consequences.

quote:
I still don't think it is impossible for the Geneforge to enlighten the mind as well as strengthen the body. As for changing all aspects of human life: that certainly would take a revolution. Or even... a rebellion? Appropriately, this brings us back to the topic at had. Should shapers keep secrets? Keeping these secrets has only resulted in war, as it always will. The shaper way is life is about to be rethought after all, on a massive scale. I can not wait.
All evidence points to insanity being a much more likely consequence of Geneforge use. Shapers should definitely keep secrets, otherwise you'd have people running around nilly-willy abusing their knowledge to all sorts of nefarious ends. It's not like Shapers truly "keep secrets." You want to learn magic or how to shape? Apply to a Shaping school and get the proper training and discipline necessary to control that power and handle the responsibilities that come with it. You want to learn more general magic knowledge and research alchemy and potion making? Become a sage and study all the information you could ever want to know on the subject. There are already outlets to learn and study in Shaper society; you could argue that the application and improvisation with that knowledge is hampered by the dogma of Shaper society, but making a Geneforge is still a bad, bad, bad idea. It's trying to do something "good" for all of the very worst reasons.

Even IF someone had truly benevolent goals in mind and even IF they thought what they were doing was for the betterment of mankind, they'd be heading down a dark, dangerous path with all of the best intentions. And we all know what the road to Hell is paved with.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Thursday, August 31 2006 15:25 Profile #29
I guess Akhari seemed pretty reasonable...aside from the whole "annihilate all humans" thing. His goal was to create a legion of super drakons to over throw the Shapers and take control of Terrestria for themselves, without regard to the consequences or the effect on the lives on the outsiders caught in the crossfire. If You have to kill them and wipe out their villages just to get to the Shapers, what harm is a little collateral damage?

Also, the canisters in G3 were new canisters, made by Akhari in proliferated for the sole purpose of tempting humans to use them and disrupt society, to undermine the Shapers from within. The geneforge may have been in a process of refinement in G3, but it was being refined for drakons. Whether or not it's possible to refine it for humans is unclear. However, the experimental risks aren't worth the consequences of a failed experiment. It only takes ONE power crazed megalomaniac to cause catastrophic damage; how many would be an acceptable amount to produce for so vain and futile a goal?

The problem with using Geneforges isn't as much in the design as it's in the inherent flaws of human nature. For humans to be able to use it with minimal consequence, it would take an entirely new philosophy and all aspects of human life would have to be rethought from the ground up. And by that point, people would become aware and content with the true purpose of life and a Geneforge would be unnecessary to perfect the human form because they've already perfected the human mind which is much more important.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Thursday, August 31 2006 06:52 Profile #24
Maybe you weren't paying attention to the game, but remember all those tiny little canisters you put your hand on that ended up slowly driving you nuts and feeling you up with a barely suppresed homicidal rage?

Well, those were only a small taste of the Geneforge. I hope you don't honestly believe there's any "upside" to using a Geneforge. All the Geneforge can do and all it ever will do is erase the user's humanity and leave them with insatiable hunger for more power that can never be satisfied. I fail to see the "benefit" or "scientific advancement" in turning one person into a "god" so they lord their power over everyone else with an iron fist. Power corrupts. Absolutely power corupts absolutely. That saying holds true enough for human tyrants when they don't have immortality and god-like abilities.

I say you can't possibly be serious because you selectively ignore the clues in the game that state that the Geneforge is inherently dangerous and there is no refining it. It either makes you crazy, or it kills you. Those are your options.

I also say you can't possibly be serious because you put WAAAAAAY too much effort into wording all of your posts "in character," unless you actually talk that way, which would be even more sad.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Tuesday, August 29 2006 10:44 Profile #14
You clearly aren't being serious about this.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Monday, August 28 2006 19:57 Profile #12
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

I would never suggest that just anyone would have access to devices as powerful as the geneforge. After all, that would make the whole process less special, less craved by the masses. It should be a goal that is worked towards, not simply given up.
The geneforge would only be open to those worthy of its use. Who is the most worthy? Why, those with the power to take it, of course! I figure if just any old adventurer ( such as your character in the games) is powerful enough to simply reach a geneforge given their significant defenses, they have a right to use it. Or... destroy it if they should see fit. But that would be a foolish waste.
The only problem is, whether made out of noble intentions or not, using the Geneforge turns you into power hungry megalomaniac with a tendency to go into fits of rage and destroy anything moving in sight.

The power a Geneforge can offer may seem tempting, but no good will come of it no matter who uses it.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Sunday, August 27 2006 19:55 Profile #9
quote:
Originally written by Anarhiztok:

OH, yeah!
Keep the secrets and if someone finds them, even by accident, just burn them all; and their families, especially little children,and everyone who's connected in any a small way with them.
I must've missed the part of the game where they explain Agents kill entire families for one person learning magic in secret. More importantly, Agents are only dispatched when someone begins actively using unauthorized magic techniques. If you stumlbed on a Shaper book by accident and immediately handed it over to the Shapers the first chance you got, especially if you went out of your way to do it, I don't see anything in-game that shows they would actually execute your whole family just to make a point.

Even if they did, it's a very simple rule with very clear consequences: Shaper magic and techniques are dangerous, and it's best not to tamper with it for one's on personal safety as well as the safety of their community. The people who ignore this are usually megalomaniacal, sociopathic, deranged, or some combination of the three. Even if you incarcerate somebody you can't make them "unlearn" magic. It's more the fault of those who knowingly and willingly violate very simple laws with very harsh consequences (and arguably justified ones, at that) if Agents WERE to hunt down and kill then and everyone they knew just to make a point then it is Shaper order's fault for being inherently cruel. You don't want to face the punishment, don't break the rules.

Another real world example: Say someone wanted to secretly do anthrax research or make nitroglycerin in their garage. The very nature of what they're doing is dangerous to both themselves and their neighbors. There's a very simple law that says it's dangerous and illegal to do either activity, especially in a civillian community, yet they chose to do so anyway. If the FBI kicks in their door, raids their home, and interrogates everyone close to them as suspected accomplices, it's more the individual's fault for breaking a very simple law and putting all of their loved ones through that than it is the fault of the FBI for being heavy handed.

The best thing to do is to leave everything on a need to know basis. First of all, even if the Shapers WANTED to educate and inform outsiders of all of their failed and dangerous experimenters, they simply wouldn't have any effective way of implementing it, since the world of Geneforge is a technologically primitive society. They know magic which allows them to create lifeforms to use to their whims, but they don't have any fast and efficient means of spreading information. They don't have internet, television, radio, or even the printing press. Important documents are still replicated by hiring scribes.

Second, you have to face facts. Most outsiders are poor, illiterate people who lead simple lives. The majority would be apathetic to news of disasters in distant areas, and the few who would care wouldn't be educated or informed enough to process the information. It's more likely to cause panic and be counterproductive to people going about their daily business without living in fear of things that aren't even a threat to them.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Avernum V ideas in Avernum 4
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Saturday, August 26 2006 22:29 Profile #269
I thought the issues with Sliths and Nephils was pretty much resolved. They live alongside the humans in peace in Avernum and going by the Empire's more tolerant stance at the end of A3, they're probably more welcome on the surface as well.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shapers keeping secrets in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Saturday, August 26 2006 08:17 Profile #6
Think about nuclear technology or bioweapon programs in the real world. Would you want any random bum off the street to have access to such potentially dangerous information, and take it on blind faith that they'd have the intelligence not to attempt to use it, for better or worse?

Shapers seem oppressive because they hoard away all magical knowledge, but in reality it's better that way. Just like how there's information the CIA, FBI, NSA, etc. knows that they keep from being known from the public, which in the end is better for everybody. Say for instance everybody knew how to make homemade dynamite. All it would take is one person to abuse that knowledge to pose a highly dangerous threat to society at large. Even if the majority of the people knew how to make dynamite, they wouldn't waste their time with it. But the small handful of people that would would have a disproportionate tendency to use that knowledge to vandalous or malicious ends.

If certain information could allow somebody to release the equivalent destructive power of dynamite with nothing more than a thought and a wave of the hand, it would be wise to protect people from themselves by restricting who could gain that information, and rigorously testing them to ensure they wouldn't abuse the ability once they gain it.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Idea for realsing creations in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Monday, August 21 2006 12:07 Profile #37
I actually like the idea of creating creations that can mate. It would just have to be set up where it wouldn't be as effective as shaping one but still useful enough to be a viable way to make new creations if you aren't in a rush for when they have to join. It would also require you to keep the mother unit alive until it could lay an egg of give birth, and then you'd have to keep the offspring alive and manage to level it up until it developed into an adult creation after reaching a certain level.

It's not really that bad of an idea, or probably even that hard to implement, but I still doubt it's going to happen any time soon.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Friday, August 11 2006 13:53 Profile #160
quote:
Originally written by Major:

Savage, this is what I got from your (more recent) posts. Is that we should treat every living thing the same. But, because Drakons are murdering people they should be treated like murderers. And killing them is the only practical way of doing that.
Correct?
Or not?
More the fact that drakons are human made creations and pose a threat to human life, so as an obligation to other humans, it is the responsibility of those who can correct the mistake to do so.

quote:
There's no problem with Geneforges or dangerous creations; Drakons are more capable than humans in controlling them. It's just when they intend to destroy humanity using those tools that it becomes a problem. If a Drakon doesn't intend to harm humanity, I don't see why it has to be killed.
The problem with Geneforges is that they're banned for good reason by society and are more often than not made by those with megalomaniacal goals. I doubt anybody ever builds one for genuinely altruistic purposes, or intends on sharing the power it gives them with anyone else. Plus there's teh fact that the power the Geneforge gives has a demoralizing and power hungering effect.

quote:
Once something dies, it no longer feels anything. So once it's dead the suffering it underwent no longer matters. It's only while that something is suffering or remembers suffering that there's a problem. As the amount of time that something suffers or remembers suffering before death increases, it becomes worse.
If dead is dead, than it really doesn't matter either way. It seems more immoral to make something just to die rather than give it a purpose in life and let it live that purpose. Serviles aren't suffering because they enjoy the tasks they were made to do. It isn't until someone thinks they're doing them a favor by trying to convince them they should be free and why they should hate their lives that they become confused and thus miserable.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Thursday, August 10 2006 11:24 Profile #154
quote:
Well, that means I have to learn my Japanese better, does it not? There is no inherent barrier, would I be willing to put in the effort to learn. To the best of my knowledge, no dolphin or ape society has developed writing as means to communicate and store history, if they can even comprehend history beyond their lifetime.
The point was more you can't base ability to feel or the ability to express those feelings. The emotions of a human are pobably much more complicated than the emotions of a dog, or it could simply be that with our greater cognitive abilities, we can simply think about the emotions themselves and as a result we think our emotions are more complicated.

If something as simple as a cat, dog, or bird can come to understand love and kinship, and if shaped creations have the same rights as natural ones, then a fyora or roamer is deserving of the same affection and treatment we would give any other pet. Sure, dogs are used for law enforcement and combat purposes, and have been since ancient times. But we still have ethical regulations saying how they can and can't be employed in dangerous situations. A Vlish can't communicate directly with a human, but that doesn't mean we should treat it any less ethically than we would treat a natural animal, as long as they are obedient and non-threatening to the average human being.

quote:
Originally written by This text:

I probably didn't make clear two or three things which I was doing. Style 1 was my attempt to mirror your beliefs and then use them to justify the death of a creation.
Okay, fair enough.

quote:
Also, I was trying to show that the vast majority of Drakons if not all, though probably capable of feeling empathy, don't.
Okay, granted.

quote:
Which would mean that if the situation didn't require it, you would have to avoid hunting them down and killing each on sight.
You lost me here. The 5 or 6% of "good" drakons don't outweigh the danger of the morally apathetic drakons, and due to their pride, it's unlikely the "good" drakons would sit idlely by and watch their brethren be killed off, nor would they agree to any proposed terms of peace with humans. They might agree to live in seclusion, but they wouldn't agree to stop making or researching geneforges and shaping dangerous creations like gazers.

quote:
Style 2 was my explanation for how an individual capable of Shaping could manipulate and torture a life without being, in my opinion, morally bankrupt. Whether the argument is used by Shapers or Drakons doesn't matter as far as I can tell.
You really lost me here, since I can't see much difference between the way this argument is structured and the first one. Unless I'm reading something profoundly wrong, they're saying basically the same thing, more or less.

quote:
The reason I broke up my last arguments into Styles was to try to show that whether you look at it from a Loyalist point of view or my own personal view, creations which die soon afterward don't have to be treated well, which would mean that empathy is unnecessary.
Now you've really lost me. If you were planning on killing the creation anyway, it's okay to kill it, because it was made to die anyway?

I could be understanding something terribly wrong, but that sounds a little circular to me. I can't see how longevity is an iportant factor in deciding whether to treat something humanely or not.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Thursday, August 10 2006 07:24 Profile #151
quote:
I doubt you will find any other species with the ability to ponder and analyze the universe around them which is huge in being self-aware.
This is impossible to know because we can't read the mind of another human being, let alone a dolphin. Their entire mind may run along the lines "Get more fish!!" or they may have complex and abstract thoughts like "I wonder if that fish will taste better than the last one I had. Hmm." We can train them to do tricks or respond how we want for a piece of fish, but we can't test them for their innermost thoughts since there's a huge communication barrier between dolphins and humans, or even chimpanzees and humans. For example, say you learn rudimentary Japanese for a trip over the summer. You know all the basic conversational questions and answers, but you couldn't fully express your thoughts to a native Japanese speaker. If you got stuck on a thought or idea and had to think of how to express it, you might by force of habit say it in English or try to cobble something out of broken Japanese, but to a native speaker you'd only be saying nonsensical incoherent gibberish. Likewise, if they tried to communicate beyond the basic dialog you learned, you'd have no idea what they were saying. Until we find a way to scientifically prove humans and only humans can think abstractly about the world around them, it isn't safe to assume other species can or can't.

quote:
Drakons can match humans in terms of intellect, right? So assuming that humans sympathize because of their intelligence, Drakons should have the capability as well.
They probably should, but most encounters with them in the game show that it's more likely that they don't.

quote:
You say (at least, I hope you say; my reputation can't take another accusation that I'm misrepresenting things, much less gleefully) that Drakons, because they show no evidence of feeling empathy, must not be able to. But then, if you take capitalism to an extreme level with any hypothetical society, you get pretty much the same result; even if that society were hypothetically human. And if you oppress a group of humans (say, a race) and make them aware of their oppression, they will lose empathy for those who oppressed them. So in short, I blame Drakon greed (which becomes extreme capitalism) and oppression for their lack of symapthy.
The reason for drakon apathy for life isn't as important as determining whether or not it's an inherent quality of their species. Also, if they are as intelligent as you say, they should be able to distinguish betwee outsiders and shapers, and humans who have the power to be a threat to them and powerless, innocent beings that simply want to live their lives in peace. The G3 ending seems to imply they either killed humans indiscriminately when taking over Terrestria, or completely upheaved outsiders' way of life just to take out the Shapers. That includes women and children. I have a hard time seeing how either could be a threat to a 2 ton reptile, but apparently the Drakons did.

quote:
I dispute the belief that, because they kill one of their own, they must be short on empathy. Watch this.
Even Shapers show enough regard for human life not to sacrifice it (at least intentionally) for the sake of an experiment or use outsiders as guinea pigs.

quote:
Style 1) Well, that was its purpose. Drakons made it, they should have a right to decide how it lives and dies and even if it has to work for them in dangerous conditions. It may seem a little extreme, but they acted within their rights as creators.
This is the same justification a Shaper would use.

quote:
Style 2) The only thing that suffered for its creation was the creation itself. Since the creation died, there is in effect nothing which is in pain for related reasons or remembers pain for related reasons.
So is this. If anything, this supports my argument that Drakons don't have any moral high ground against the Shapers, and are probably even more depraved since they will even experiment and sacrifice their own kind for their own ends. Whether or not they used willing volunteers is debatable. They enslave and abuse creations just as bad as the Shapers, and are willing to play those gullible and short sighted enough to ally themselves with them to their advantage. I doubt the drakons care about anything other than the drakons (and from their perspective, drayks are probably obsolete and expendable as well). It's highly unlikely that if or when they unlock godhood from their research with the Geneforge, they'd share the benefits with other creations and human outsiders. Their only goal is to make bigger, better, more powerful drakons. And since greed is an inherent part of their nature, I doubt they'd be into sharing the results.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Wednesday, August 9 2006 12:50 Profile #144
quote:
This has got to be the most non-sequitor argument that I've heard this week. I'll break this up into a few points:

I don't see any evidence that Drayks/Drakons are unable to feel empathy and remorse. They probably do with their own kind. Be that we've never played a Drayk/Drakon, it is hard to tell much about them other than what humans see.
In the conversation with Hurka in the Breeding Caverns, if you've become addicted to canisters she mentions how it eventually takes away "your" species (note how she specifically says "your") ability to feel compassion and sympathy for "lesser creatures." If you press her for how to cure the effects or reverse the changes, she only asks why you would care or would want to. Then there's the Geneforge and the surrounding labs, which routinely performed shaping experiments on how to make more powerful drakons, and mentions the experiments that resulted in failure, i.e. a deformed monstrosity that died either during or shortly after it creation, and what it was believed to be the cause of their death. Like being shaped without a head, for instance. Drakons clearly lack empathy for what they consider lesser creatures, and they barely have enough for each other if they're willing to sacrifice the lives of their own kind in the name of science. Also, they aren't much different from Shapers because Omen Eye will tell you it was created and enslaved by Akhari Blaze, and forced to guard Agatha and the other captured Shapers. Sure, they might be able to do calculus, quantum physics, open heart surgery, write deep metaphor-rich allegorical poems, or sing songs about the joys of eating and devouring humans. My point was the ability to think abstractly wasn't enough criteria to determine if an intelligence to be allowed to exist if it doesn't understand the most important thing of all: why it shouldn't go around terrorizing and eating any lesser intelligences it may encounter.

quote:
Different cultures have different values. You could say the Drakons are immoral, but that does not make them incable of abstract thought. Connecting the above paragraph, let us suppose you are a Black slave living on a plantation in the US South in 1840. You might see Whites as immoral and lacking empathy from your perspective. This is not necessarily true of course.
In that time period it would probably be a safe bet as a runaway slave to assume all Whites would betray them and turn them in if given the chance. Sure, there were abolitionists and Quakers, but the fact is the vast majority would be lacking in empathy, especially if they could rationalize to themselves the enslavement and torture of human beings and use religion and "science" to prove how they must be subhuman. It doesn't matter if they actually owned the plantation or worked as an overseer. It was ingrained into American society (including the North) that African people weren't human and there was no need to feel sympathy or pity for them. It was a culture that invented minstrel shows, lynchings, Slave Codes, The Fugitive Slave Act, and the Grandfather Clause. Black people weren't even allowed to vote in the South until about 50 years ago. There are exceptions to every rule, but a slave living in the Antebellum South would have perceived White people in general to be immoral because at that time the vast majority were immoral.

quote:
Even if I concede the above empathy and remorse are not the only type of abstract thought. Sociopaths can still comprehend advanced mathematics, politics, etc. without having empathy/remorse.
And we have a place in society for sociopaths that act out on their disregard for life; prison. The worst of which either serve life terms or receive death sentences. It doesn't matter how "smart" someone is if they're seen as a threat to society. We remove their ability to do harm to the average citizen by placing them institutions where they can either learn to feel and express empathy or spend the rest of their days among other dangerous, amoral individuals.

quote:
What it boils down to is a logical flaw that if you lack one compnent it necessarily destroys the whole argument. I agree empathy and remorse are part of abstract thought; however, there are many others. Being incable of one does not mean that you are incapable of doing the others in the category.
What it does mean is that such a being is a ticking time bomb waiting for the right provocation to set them off. It's bad enough preventing human criminals from doing harm to society. Imagine trying to capture and imprison a 2 ton fire breathing lizard.

quote:
Keep in mind by intelligent I'm meaning sentient. Talking is not required. Abstract thought is. Yes, gorrilas and dolphins are capable of rudimentary language skills, but I doubt you will find one capable of learning and comprehending calculus.
I fail to see how that means they're unable to understand love, friendship, kindness, anger, or hate. I also don't see why having "thoughts about thoughts" is more important than simply having "thoughts." If you treat a dog kindly it's entire life, it'll form a bond and want to spend time with you. Treat it cruelly, and eventually it'll start attacking you on site. It doesn't matter if the dog can think "I like/hate so and so because..." as long as it can form the attachment or repulsion based on prior experiences.

quote:
When you "talk" to the artilas and rogue creations, they don't understand you. You're using your shaper mind powers to control them.
Your Shaper mind abilities allow you to influence how they respond and control their thoughts if it's strong enough (think about Jedi mind tricks). They actually do have the ability to communicate, even if only rudimentarily.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Tuesday, August 8 2006 19:24 Profile #137
quote:
Originally written by *i:

Now things like Fryoas and Roamers are really not comparable as they lake much in the way of intelligence. However, let's look at things like Serviles or Gazers. Both are obviously capable of free thought and carrying on conversations. In the GF world, they can pretty much do everything humans do minus shaping -- even the Drakons can do that.

My justification is the level of sentience. When a being is intelligent enough to be consciously self-aware, make its own decisions, converse freely, and capable of abstract thought, I'd put that as equivalent to humans.

The one way out of that is to admit a superiority to humans since you are human. Although this argument is somewhat tautological, it is tenable from a values standpoint.
There's an artilla in Fort Kentia that is on the verge of going rogue, and you can actually try to talk it into either joining you or letting you put it out of its misery peacefully. Talking artillas may be more the exception than the rule, but the fact remains that all creations can be given some level of ability to understand and respond to human speech. You never have a conversation with a vlish or roamer in game, but that doesn't mean it's inherently impossible for a sufficiently skilled shaper to give them the ability. Thaads and Battle Alphas are usually mute by default by skilled shapers can give them at least a rudimentary ability to speak and reason. Also, the abstract thought argument doesn't hold because drayks and most drakons lack empathy or remorse, meaning they're unable to understand the concept of protecting and defending the weak or general kindness.

As for fyoras and roamers, I assume they'd be equivalent to dogs, and even though dogs don't have comparable intelligence to us, our possession of that intelligence allows us to think abstractly about pain and suffering and avoid doing anything inherently cruel or malicious to our pets. You can "own" a dog, but that doesn't give you the right to force it to obey whatever command you give it.

If serviles deserve the same rights as humans, then all creations deserve teh same rights as natural animals of corresponding intellect. That's the only way I can see that position as logically consistent.

Personally, I don't see it as inherently wrong to use the technology to create serviles to perform manual labor and augment the workforce; it's wrong to abuse that technology and treat serviles excessively cruel. Serviles get the three basic things needed for survival -- food, clothes, shelter -- on a level probably much different from what the average outsider could afford for themselves. You can argue it's wrong to destroy them when they become too intelligent, but in a sense one servile with an overactive mind could possibly ruin all serviles it meets from doing work, and if you wanted to be completely humane and sympathetic, you'd have to release the vast majority of your workforce. Intelligent serviles wouldn't be too much of a problem if they still enjoyed the work they were created to perform. You could argue they have the right to find their own place in life, but the outsiders that supervise them and work side by side with them don't have the same luxury of quitting a job the hate and living happily ever after.

Geneforge takes place in a fantasy world, but fantasy doesn't imply perfect. There will always be people needed to perform work, and for the most part they will always be exploited by those who control the capital. This holds true for both human and servile.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Avernum V ideas in Avernum 4
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Monday, August 7 2006 14:12 Profile #217
quote:
Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno:

id already be satisfied if it would be possible to put things into barrels, drawers, etc again, like back in the exile-universe.
You actually can do this as long as said drawer doesn't have a text special attached to it. You can also stockpile items all over the cave floor wherever you want, but it gets messy.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Monday, August 7 2006 13:44 Profile #125
I've went over extensively how giving birth to an infant is different than using magic to turn raw organic material into a hulking humanoid lifeform. If you feel the creations of human beings are inherently equal to humans themselves, than justify and explain your position. If you think giving birth to an infant is equivalent to making a battle alpha or ghlaak (which I personally, for a variety of reasons, don't agree with) than instead of making the analogy justify it.

If you can't see the obvious difference between a mother carrying and giving birth to a child and shaping a creature through magic, there's not much I can do personally to explain the facts of life to you. In the end, all you're saying is that your life is worth as much as a battle alpha or artilla, and the inconsistency I'm pointing out with that line of reasoning is that everyone seems to be reserving sympathy for serviles and drakons but they don't care too much about the rights of ALL creations. If a human is equal to a servile, then a human should also be equal to an artilla and a human should be equal to a golem. If the life of a human conceived and carried in its mother's womb for nine months, bonded and connected to her by an instinctual emotional bond, suckled on her breast and taught fairness, morality, and kindness through her guidance is in the end worth as much as the life of a servile, then it's worth as much as the existence of a roamer or vlish as well. It doesn't matter if a human's mind develops and matures over years and years of learning and a shaped creation has its adult intelligence from the moment it's created, nor does it matter if a human starts life as an infant while teh creation is brought into existence in its full adult form.

If that's the case, then creations run amok such as overpowered golems have as much right to life as you or I, regardless if its first act in life is to kill its creator and anything else that moves in its immediate vicinity.

Not that I'd agree with that perspective, but if you genuinely feel everything about your life and existence is equal to a being made through magic, that's fine for your own personal philosophy for life. But you also have to accept that the same rule applies down the line, and ALL creations without exception have to be seen as inherently free as well, regardless of if their natural inclination is killing and eating humans.

I'm well aware what a reductio ad absurdum argument is. The only reason your counter argument fails is because you assume the lives of creations is equal to humans, while I believe human life is inherently more fragile and valuable. For the most part, creations don't start lives as infants, or even children. They start as fully adult, and while they gainnew experiences and learn, they start with a full adult intelligence, not the relative blank slate of an infant.

It's not enough to compare humans to shaped creations; you have to contrast them as well. If you think the obvious and self apparent differences between humans and shaped beings doesn't inherently make the lives of one distinguishable from the other, convince me.

Because I have a hard time thinking of a baby when I see fire breathing 12 ft. tall 3 ton reptile.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Monday, August 7 2006 10:25 Profile #122
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

quote:
Originally written by Savage Ed Walcott:

If you can make it, you can break it. That's the idea in a nutshell.
The frustrating thing about your discussion, Savage Ed, is that this is really all you seem to be saying, over and over and at length. To any suggestion that there might be other overriding factors, you simply say, 'No' and repeat your basic assumption, which everyone else finds self-evidently abominable. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but there is supposed to be a difference between repeating an opinion and arguing.
I haven't seen any convincing overriding factors, only analogies to infants and human slaves (which I don't accept) and appeals to emotion (which isn't a logical justification). It doesn't matter if everyone finds my "basic" assumption "self evidently abominable." Other than twisting my perspective to argument that to mean I condone the killing infants or the enslaving of humans by other human beings, I haven't seen one rebuttal that didn't jump to presonal assumptions against me or my position. You don't agree with me, fine. I really don't care if you do. All I'm asking at this point is give a logical and well thought explanation why you think man made creations, especially those made to ease overall human suffering or those that are inherently dangerous should be free from their creators.

quote:
Nobody said anything about catering to wants. Most people acknowledge a responsibility to provide for needs. The important point is that the creator is not entitled to treat the creation as a slave. Care to address this one?
Apparently if I did, I'd just be "repeating my basic assumption, at length." I'll leave it up to reread my previous posts for my stance on that. If you wanted, you could give a convincing argument why a creator doesn't have the right to treat their creation like a slave.

quote:
No doubt. So the Shapers were stupid to do it. But how stupid it was to make sentient creations has no bearing on the right of the sentient creations to a free existence. Why do you keep raising this issue as though it did? Do you have some unstated premise that wasting time and energy must entitle one to compensation in the form of slave labor?
No, but I have a clearly stated premise that the endeavors of human science are meant to improve the lives of human beings. If that includes creating "slave labor" to augment the workforce in dangerous and unsavory occupations, so be it. Unless you want to put into words your obvious fundamental objection.

quote:
Nonsense. Pretending that the only alternative is heavy labor by children and the elderly is pretty shabby argument. Pay healthy adults a fair wage for mining and cutting wood. The Shaper culture, like ours, can well afford it.[/QB]
I really don't think so. Based on the apparent world economy in Geneforge, children could be seen as a viable source of labor probably as young as 10, which would be consistent with many agrarian and developing societies throughout history. It was even commonplace in the United States up until around the 1920s. I think the main reason serviles exist is because there's a shortage of man power, and using them allows for greater productivity. Also, I see no indication from a basic analysis of humans in the game to believe that the average outsider, other than the odd mage or blacksmith here or there qualifies for what could be financially well off in the world of Geneforge. Most of them are similar to medieval peasant workers in our world; uneducated, dirty, poor, tired, and hungry. The idea of what a "fair wage" is in Geneforge is more than likely just enough to get by from one day to the next, living from hand to mouth. I doubt they have any kind of labor union demanding a "fair wage" on their behalf.

Other than being used as "slave labor," and being destroyed when they get too much independent thought, I don't see much that seperates how human workers are treated in Geneforge and how the serviles are treated. Drakons are inherently dangerous, and nobody seems to genuinely care about the poor ghlaaks and battle alphas for some reason.

I'm not saying the Shapers aren't an oppressive, overbearing, tyrannical magocracy. They learned how to make their own living beings to do their bidding and almost instantly let it go to their head and started lording their power over other human beings. They've placed themselves above the law as far as so called outsiders go and don't hold themselves accountable to them beyond the Shaper laws they barely even acknowlege. If anything that's my main beef against Shaper rule and policies. The treatment of creations made to perform some task for the overall benefit of society isn't really one of my concerns as long as it isn't excessively cruel or inhumane. You obviously disagree with that last point, so if you like, feel free to articulate that fundamental underlying opposition in words. If it's convincing enough, you might even change my opinion back to feeling sorry for the serviles.

Otherwise, I agree, this is getting frustrating, and also very boring.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Avernum V ideas in Avernum 4
Hamilton G. Phantamos
Apprentice
Member # 7333
 written Saturday, August 5 2006 11:35 Profile #211
It'd be nice to have some kind of item storage/retrieval system wear you could store items somewhere and have it delivered to whatever town you move to when you need it for a small fee. It got kind of annoying to keep up with all the caches I left around in A4 for when I wanted to store something.

That and more weapon varieties, like brass knuckles, maces, nunchuks, etc.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00

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