Shapers keeping secrets

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AuthorTopic: Shapers keeping secrets
Loyal Underling
Member # 13
Profile #25
Not all of that is true, but I am forbidden to say more. But I can say that using the Geneforge changes you in much the same way that canisters do.

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[i]Great Potato[/i]
"Unless by the force of eloquence they mean the force of truth; for if such is their meaning, I admit that I am eloquent." -- Socrates
Posts: 126 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #26
quote:
Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:

the Geneforge is inherently dangerous and there is no refining it.
Perhaps I wasn't paying attention to the game after all. I can't seem to remember them saying the geneforge could not be refined. In fact, I though that was the whole purpose of the Taker missions in Geneforge 2 and 3: refining the geneforge. Neither Eass nor Akhari-Blaze seemed as horribly insane as, say, Barzahl, who used canisters first and asked questions later. They actually seemed more rational than before they used it, allowing you to live among them in peace. I believe the geneforge can be refined, it merely takes patience. The reason your view has been distorted is because most shapers, myself included, take the Barzahl approach when faced with the option of using a geneforge, rather than an Eass approach.

Another possibility: maybe the canisters are not meant to be used. It could be that they are components of a geneforge never quite perfected. The original geneforge itself might never have even been completed. Perhaps the insanity that results from the use of these experimental technologies is simply a glitch that the Takers worked out and everyone else ignored.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #27
Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Another possibility: maybe the canisters are not meant to be used. It could be that they are components of a geneforge never quite perfected. The original geneforge itself might never have even been completed. Perhaps the insanity that results from the use of these experimental technologies is simply a glitch that the Takers worked out and everyone else ignored.
The Geneforge was completed. You can use it in G1. You do, however, go completely insane with power. On the other hand, Trajkov can use it and he barely manages to keep his sanity. So some people can use it and some people can't--but you don't know who those people are until afterwards.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #28
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

The Geneforge was completed.
What makes you so sure? It was abandoned, probably before it was even tested. For all we know, your character and Trajkov end up using an unfinished product, a prototype. That could easily be the whole cause of this so called insanity!

My entire point is that we are not seeing the whole picture. It is most unfortunate that the only example we have of a geneforge used on a human is the mysterious failed experiment from Geneforge 1. I do not think this example is valid. The geneforge should not be looked at as a failure without more evidence. Canisters are incomplete, the first geneforge was almost certainly not the final goal, either. I want a new, perfected geneforge. Almost makes we want to become a Taker... almost.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7333
Profile #29
I guess Akhari seemed pretty reasonable...aside from the whole "annihilate all humans" thing. His goal was to create a legion of super drakons to over throw the Shapers and take control of Terrestria for themselves, without regard to the consequences or the effect on the lives on the outsiders caught in the crossfire. If You have to kill them and wipe out their villages just to get to the Shapers, what harm is a little collateral damage?

Also, the canisters in G3 were new canisters, made by Akhari in proliferated for the sole purpose of tempting humans to use them and disrupt society, to undermine the Shapers from within. The geneforge may have been in a process of refinement in G3, but it was being refined for drakons. Whether or not it's possible to refine it for humans is unclear. However, the experimental risks aren't worth the consequences of a failed experiment. It only takes ONE power crazed megalomaniac to cause catastrophic damage; how many would be an acceptable amount to produce for so vain and futile a goal?

The problem with using Geneforges isn't as much in the design as it's in the inherent flaws of human nature. For humans to be able to use it with minimal consequence, it would take an entirely new philosophy and all aspects of human life would have to be rethought from the ground up. And by that point, people would become aware and content with the true purpose of life and a Geneforge would be unnecessary to perfect the human form because they've already perfected the human mind which is much more important.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #30
There is a human Geneforge from GF1 and the drakon ones from GF2 and GF3. There's no reason to think that 200 or so years of technological improvements wouldn't provide a way for the human geneforge to be "perfected".

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet
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You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #31
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

There's no reason to think that 200 or so years of technological improvements wouldn't provide a way for the human geneforge to be "perfected".
You’ve no idea how much this pleases me to hear.

quote:
Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:

I guess Akhari seemed pretty reasonable...aside from the whole "annihilate all humans" thing. His goal was to create a legion of super drakons to over throw the Shapers and take control of Terrestria for themselves
I do believe it is part of Taker doctrine to allow non-shaper humans to live, provided it is under drakon control. Yes, the goal is to overthrow the shapers, but is it not a worthy one? Surely one so terrified of shaper ways as you can see the good in this. As for collateral damage, it is regrettable but unavoidable. For the record, I am not a Taker, but I do not agree with the Shaper Council’s ways, either.

quote:
Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:

Also, the canisters in G3 were new canisters, made by Akhari in proliferated for the sole purpose of tempting humans to use them and disrupt society, to undermine the Shapers from within.
I seem to remember the canister workshop being located in Rising. It matters not, as I have explained the unfortunate fact that yes, the canisters do not work and yes, people use them anyway. They should all be destroyed, in my opinion. They would not even be necessary had the geneforge been perfected in the first place.

quote:
Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:

However, the experimental risks aren't worth the consequences of a failed experiment.
With this mindset we would still be in the dark ages. You can not win an argument if you insist that innovation is futile. Without it, we are nothing.

quote:
Originally written by Chairface Chippendale:

The problem with using Geneforges isn't as much in the design as it's in the inherent flaws of human nature. For humans to be able to use it with minimal consequence, it would take an entirely new philosophy and all aspects of human life would have to be rethought from the ground up.
I still don't think it is impossible for the Geneforge to enlighten the mind as well as strengthen the body. As for changing all aspects of human life: that certainly would take a revolution. Or even... a rebellion? Appropriately, this brings us back to the topic at had. Should shapers keep secrets? Keeping these secrets has only resulted in war, as it always will. The shaper way is life is about to be rethought after all, on a massive scale. I can not wait.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7333
Profile #32
quote:
I do believe it is part of Taker doctrine to allow non-shaper humans to live, provided it is under drakon control. Yes, the goal is to overthrow the shapers, but is it not a worthy one? Surely one so terrified of shaper ways as you can see the good in this. As for collateral damage, it is regrettable but unavoidable. For the record, I am not a Taker, but I do not agree with the Shaper Council’s ways, either.

So in other words trade a tyranny of Shapers for a tyranny of Drakons. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

quote:
With this mindset we would still be in the dark ages. You can not win an argument if you insist that innovation is futile. Without it, we are nothing.
Without innovation we would be nothing. However, that innovation has always been mindful of the consquences and the impact on human life, or at least regretful if they are negative. The very men who developed atomic weaponary in WWII campaigned against its proliferation after the fact. Besides, none of our innovations have involved creating superhuman mutants driven insane by overwhelming power. You can't rush headlong into research on potentially dangerous technology without first stopping to think about the possible consequences.

quote:
I still don't think it is impossible for the Geneforge to enlighten the mind as well as strengthen the body. As for changing all aspects of human life: that certainly would take a revolution. Or even... a rebellion? Appropriately, this brings us back to the topic at had. Should shapers keep secrets? Keeping these secrets has only resulted in war, as it always will. The shaper way is life is about to be rethought after all, on a massive scale. I can not wait.

All evidence points to insanity being a much more likely consequence of Geneforge use. Shapers should definitely keep secrets, otherwise you'd have people running around nilly-willy abusing their knowledge to all sorts of nefarious ends. It's not like Shapers truly "keep secrets." You want to learn magic or how to shape? Apply to a Shaping school and get the proper training and discipline necessary to control that power and handle the responsibilities that come with it. You want to learn more general magic knowledge and research alchemy and potion making? Become a sage and study all the information you could ever want to know on the subject. There are already outlets to learn and study in Shaper society; you could argue that the application and improvisation with that knowledge is hampered by the dogma of Shaper society, but making a Geneforge is still a bad, bad, bad idea. It's trying to do something "good" for all of the very worst reasons.

Even IF someone had truly benevolent goals in mind and even IF they thought what they were doing was for the betterment of mankind, they'd be heading down a dark, dangerous path with all of the best intentions. And we all know what the road to Hell is paved with.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Loyal Underling
Member # 13
Profile #33
Well, not everyone can be a shaper. That's why you need a Geneforge - to change people's genes so that they're able to learn to shape.

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[i]Great Potato[/i]
"Unless by the force of eloquence they mean the force of truth; for if such is their meaning, I admit that I am eloquent." -- Socrates
Posts: 126 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7195
Profile #34
Well, you know, to make a closed curve back to the beginning of this thread, if everyone used the geneforge, then it also wouldn't be so dangerous, coz if one was evil and used it for evil purposes, some others might use it to prevent him - coz, providing everyone is at equal strenghths, for every disease there is a remedy or a prevention.

In the meantime:

quote:
Chairface wrote:
quote:

Originally written by Anarhiztok:
OH, yeah!
Keep the secrets and if someone finds them, even by accident, just burn them all; and their families, especially little children,and everyone who's connected in any a small way with them.

I must've missed the part of the game where they explain Agents kill entire families for one person learning magic in secret. More importantly, Agents are only dispatched when someone begins actively using unauthorized magic techniques. If you stumlbed on a Shaper book by accident and immediately handed it over to the Shapers the first chance you got, especially if you went out of your way to do it, I don't see anything in-game that shows they would actually execute your whole family just to make a point.
...

Well, as I remember they wanted to kill every servile, human and drayk who was at the Sucia island...

quote:

Emperor wrote:
I do believe it is part of Taker doctrine to allow non-shaper humans to live, provided it is under drakon control.

HMMM, i don't think that is taker doctrine - takers just wantED just to destroy Shapers, what you said became true only when drakons took over in G3 (not to be confused with the drayk - taker symbiosys of G2).

[ Friday, September 01, 2006 08:22: Message edited by: Anarhiztok ]

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I don't care what you say, I'm punk and Hardcore all the way!
Posts: 185 | Registered: Sunday, June 4 2006 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #35
My dear Chairface, I would never advocate the ways of the Takers, I was merely using them as an example. I believe the shapers should be overthrown, but not be creations. That would be ludicrous. Nor am I a Barzite because I would not grant powers to any idiot passing by, either. In fact, the very word Barzite seems to be an oxymoron, as anyone who follows his teachings would never settle for living under the name of another. I believe shaper secrets should be available to the strongest and smartest, for they are the ones most likely improve on the methods currently in practice. The society should also be able to evolve, and experiments should be made public to avoid repetition of mistakes and so they they are not left behind to grow out of hand unchecked. I suppose this makes me a Tullegolite.

If nuclear weapons weren't proliferated, war between the United States and the Soviet Union would have been inevitable. Neither side wanted to attack the other due to the fear of the power of such weapons and, thus, major conflicts were avoided. The same can be said for the power of a geneforge. Who is going to attack someone with supreme power? Even better if multiple people have this power, because they will balance each other out.

As for Taker doctrine, I am almost certain it was Seros from Geneforge 2 that said he would spare humanity as long as they submitted to the power of the drakons. It matters not, as all Takers are rogues and their ways should never be taken seriously.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Loyal Underling
Member # 13
Profile #36
Drakons are worse than the Shapers, in that they want to subjugate everyone - humans, serviles, other creations, and even drayks.

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[i]Great Potato[/i]
"Unless by the force of eloquence they mean the force of truth; for if such is their meaning, I admit that I am eloquent." -- Socrates
Posts: 126 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #37
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

If nuclear weapons weren't proliferated, war between the United States and the Soviet Union would have been inevitable. Neither side wanted to attack the other due to the fear of the power of such weapons and, thus, major conflicts were avoided. The same can be said for the power of a geneforge. Who is going to attack someone with supreme power? Even better if multiple people have this power, because they will balance each other out.
This logic only stands a chance of working if both sides are sane, which people who have used the Geneforge are manifestly not.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #38
Genforge 1 has a ending where you use the geneforge and leave it intact. This results in a massive war of the gods where those that used it start fighting each other instead of settleling down to a mutually assured destruction truce. Too many people can't control themselves when they are transformed.

Although getting back to my original question. Even the little things must be kept secret. Because of the big secret about the geneforge, the Sholai are kept in the dark in GF3 about what happened to their earlier expedition led by Trajkov. Explaining why they were completely wiped out would mean explaining about Sucia Island. This might start a war or convince the Sholai to start hunting for secret information on the geneforge. A simpler lie about finding a wrecked group of ships with no survivors might not be believed, but it would end the Sholai search.

Shaper society seems to go into ostrich mode about certain secrets. Hide everything and the problem will go away. This works if the hiders are trustworthy. Unfortuneately this didn't happen with the Geneforge.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #39
And the shapers need fear the Sholai why? They are a backwards people hardly worthy of a footnote. The shapers are not afraid of war with the Sholai, they merely wanted to avoid utter embarrassment. One of their secrets got out, and since they pride themselves on keeping secrets, they had to cover it up. What happens when the Sholai find this one out? The shapers will wish they told them in the first place.

You must look further back than Geneforge 3 to see what the real problem is. The problem is that the shapers tried to cover up the geneforge and canisters, leaving it all behind to be discovered by the outsiders in the first place. If only they had kept record of the geneforge, the whole problem could have been avoided, no Trajkov, no Barzahl, no Takers. The fact that the shapers kept it secret is the reason it all happened. I’ll bet now that the shapers are fighting for their very survival, they wish they had access to their own secrets, their own geneforge. Too bad they buried them where now they can not even find them. Stupid shapers.

By the way, no one answered a question I posed earlier. Would you approve of the use of a geneforge during a time of war? Or would you rather the war be drawn out through conventional means?

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #40
Unlike using an atomic bomb to force Japan's surrender at the end of World War II, using the geneforge isn't the same type of solution. Conventional means are going to have to do to crush the Rebellion in order to avoid starting a new war with geneforged enhanced shapers.

To see a real world analogy consider back in the 1980's Ronald Reagan sent George Bush to Iraq to help Saddam Hussien in his war with Iran. Bush revealed how the US spy satellite system worked in addition to giving him intelligence to help them "win" the war. A few years later in Gulf War I, Iraq used what it knew about the spy satellites to hide Scud missle launchers in the desert and move around without been detected. The end of Gulf War I left Saddam in power and gave him the power to crush any forces that tried to over throw him. The US "betrayl" of the opposition caused most of them not to support us now in Iraq. So much for technology solving problems.

For another example, when the Soviet Union invaded Afganistan, the US provided funds to Saudi Arabia to send people to fight the Soviets. Among those hired was Osama bin Laden and other who became Al-Qaida. Enbolded by their success they decided to get back at the other superpower, the US. Talk about a disgruntled government employee getting layed off and going postal.

Trying to created a weapon without adequate controls will only cause trouble later on when the flaws are revealed.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #41
I fail to see how most of your examples relate to the topic at hand. Everything you said was true, but it had little to do with using a geneforge. I suppose you mean to say revealing secrets is dangerous because those that get them could become enemies. Yes, a good point. If only the shapers had not kept secrets in the first place they would never have fallen into the hands of the Takers. What? That makes no sense. Yes it does, because there would be no Takers, no abandoned serviles, no abandoned geneforge or canisters to discover. Too late now. Your point for keeping secrets in a time of war, however, is valid. And, since it is too late to prevent the war, then, yes, of course secrets should be kept from the enemies. That is a given.

I still think conventional means in this particular war are more brutal than the alternative. Millions of creations killing each other, cities annihilated and, I almost forgot, the diseases mentioned in the end of Geneforge 3. How can you not feel almost as if it is your duty to use the geneforge, just to end the suffering?

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #42
I'm not one to advocate war, but war is what often leads to jumps of technology or change. Besides canisters and the Geneforge, Shapers seem to have remained, more or less, unchanged for the last few centuries (except for a few changed laws), this war (as Jeff seems to have hinted) is causing the Shapers to make some jumps that may never have been made otherwise and (if the Shapers win) will cause them to probably be even further advanced than they were before. Whether this is good or bad is yet to be seen.

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7333
Profile #43
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

My dear Chairface, I would never advocate the ways of the Takers, I was merely using them as an example.
Okay, granted.

quote:
I believe the shapers should be overthrown, but not be creations. That would be ludicrous. Nor am I a Barzite because I would not grant powers to any idiot passing by, either.
I actually agree to this.

quote:
I believe shaper secrets should be available to the strongest and smartest, for they are the ones most likely improve on the methods currently in practice. The society should also be able to evolve, and experiments should be made public to avoid repetition of mistakes and so they they are not left behind to grow out of hand unchecked.
Agreed, but there's no real point to make this information "public." Only Shapers with sufficient skill and the potential to repeat such experiments should be given clearance to this information. The average farmer or sailor could probably care less about dangerous incidents, other than possibly making them more superstitious and paranoid.

quote:
I suppose this makes me a Tullegolite.
Okay, whatever floats your boat.

quote:
If nuclear weapons weren't proliferated, war between the United States and the Soviet Union would have been inevitable. Neither side wanted to attack the other due to the fear of the power of such weapons and, thus, major conflicts were avoided.
This is false for a variety of reasons. I am by no means a Cold War historian but it's generally well known that the threat of annihilation was seen as "imminent" for over 50 years, engendering a culture of paranoia, xenophobia, and blind nationalism on both sides. Also, we never fought a war directly with the USSR but we fought them by proxy with governments that were either tacitly or explicitly supported by Soviet funding simply for adopting a communist government: Viet Nam, Korea, Cuba, and many other US planned insurrections/coups throughout the Third World. If an actual coventional war had broke up between the superpowers it's debateable if they would have eventually been forced to reach a compromise, but it's only speculation in hindsight. Even the prospect of conventional war is highly unlikely due to an all out invasion being disadvantageous to either side due to their geographic separation. In fact, you could probably assert that without nuclear weapons to puff their chests out with, the US and USSR would have been forced to have a tense and hostile relationship, but ultimately one where there was no perceived threat of instant annihilation on either side, allowing a more relaxed, open minded society.

The fact that many US cover operations from that time period are now open information to be studied allows us to learn from the past and use the follies of a previous generation to gain a valuable moral lesson; however, while we can analyze and try to avoid such volatile stand offs between governments in the future, and the study of nuclear technology has useful applications despite the fact it can be used for evil much easier than for good doesn't mean the average individual should be allowed to have blueprints and instructions on how to create a Cold War era warhead. Actually, the only reason this is harmless and not an issue in the real world is because you need means of production to manufacture a warhead; any simpleton who can read and chant can start abusing magical abilities instantly in the world of Geneforge.

quote:
The same can be said for the power of a geneforge. Who is going to attack someone with supreme power? Even better if multiple people have this power, because they will balance each other out.
Or they will go to war with each other, leaving devastation in their wake and leaving those without the power or any allegiance in the cross fire in their quest to annihilate or dominate their rivals. That seems much more likely.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #44
I do not believe that annihilation was ever imminent during the Cold War. Let us take the incident that brought the world the closest it ever came to an actual nuclear holocaust: the Cuban Missile Crisis. At the end of that whole episode, Kennedy called the Soviet's bluff, and they proved to be just as cowardly when it came to using the bomb as you are when it comes to using the geneforge. It does not take a historian to see this. Even the Soviets, the most unpredictable regime in the modern era, failed to push the button. If they are not the best analogy we have to a canister user, then I am afraid I can not think of a better one.

As for the common farmers using the secrets available to them, this sounds only fair. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to try their hand at shaping. But you thought I disagreed with the beliefs of the Barzites? I do. Should someone misuse their shaping abilities or simply be terrible at using them, the government then has the duty to take those abilities away from the offender, slay them, if necessary. It would probably only take a few violent examples to make the message clear. Do not feel sorry for them, for they abused the gifts that were given to them.

If the government is unable to control a couple of hicks out in the woods shaping battle alphas, then that government has lost control, and must be overthrown. If said hicks are the ones that do the overthrowing, then so be it, for they have proven themselves worthy, and it is now their right to try their hand at ruling. Should they fail al well, it is now your duty to overthrow them and take the realm for yourself. Thus is the way of the Tullegolite.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #45
You are fogetting that unsupervised shaping of anykind can result in things like new diseases. I believe that it is the fear of this and not of rogues that truly scares the shapers about letting people learn how to shape.

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #46
Once again, if the government can not take control of the situation, then they must be overthrown. But what if there is no one alive capable of repairing a certain problem, such as a new disease? Well, that's an easy one. I hope that you know by now what how I would answer that question.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #47
Stick with me emperor, we'll go far.

Seriously though. I believe that anyone should be allowed to shape. However that doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to learn. Also when it comes to experimenting Shaping that should be strictly controlled by the current government. Anyone believed to be experimenting without careful supervision by the government should be murdered. No questions asked.

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Pass the sauerkraut and chips please.
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #48
quote:
Originally written by Goldman N. King:

I believe that anyone should be allowed to shape. However that doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to learn. Also when it comes to experimenting Shaping that should be strictly controlled by the current government. Anyone believed to be experimenting without careful supervision by the government should be murdered. No questions asked.
I never said they should be forced, merely given opportunities. Common farmers would be given the knowledge, but hardly any means, such as vital shaping equipment. If they are good enough, they will not need said equipment, and they will produce results regardless. This will earn the government's recognition, and this way even a commoner can prosper without becoming huge threat first. If a commoner does somehow become a huge threat without equipment, this commoner may very well be the next emperor.

As for experimentation, that should be a fundamental right as well. If the government was the sole authority on shaping experiments, it would lead to a government just as conservative as the Shaper Council, which is not the way of the Tullegolite. Why stifle creativity? Let the people experiment as best they can, so long as it is never presents a threat to society. Seeing as common people will have limited means available to them, such as no geneforge and limited essence, the threat should be minimal. If ever great trouble somehow arises anyway, the prodigy should first be given an opportunity to work for the government. Should they refuse, only then should the murders commence.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #49
So should everyone have access to nuclear technology? (I'm not just saying countries but say for kicks decided I wanted to buy some warheads). Or mabey I'll go to the liquor store and buy some anthrax or other bio-weapons.

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00

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