Shapers keeping secrets
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Wednesday, September 27 2006 05:45
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I said they were cruel, not stupid. The only real reason they want you back is because you're powerful, and could help them futher their cause. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 27 2006 10:16
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Crafterlord: It could never be democratic, it would have to be a system based on power. Democratic leaders are weak, and a republic would never be able to get anything done, whereas someone who got their position through feats of strength would be, needless to say, stronger, also more efficient He could still be overthrown by someone stronger still or a even group of people, so it is democratic in some sense, only you vote with your power, which is appropriate to the world of geneforge. quote:That sounds reasonable, but you said they were unreasonable. My point is that the drakon geneforges didn't seem to make the drakons that used them crazy. This opens up the possibility of a human geneforge that doesn't make you crazy. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Wednesday, September 27 2006 14:19
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quote:There's something you're forgetting. Drayks, and by extension Drakons, are some of the most strong-minded creations out there. In fact, they are probably more stable mentally than humans. Therefore, it could just be a strong will that keeps them in the relative realm of sanity. Besides, the geneforge for Drakons is massively different from the human geneforge. For example, the geneforge in GF1 did not have body parts floating in it. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 27 2006 14:38
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You would think that a strong will would make one even more crazy. I do not think the drakons are smarter than humans, if anything, they are more unpredictable. However, you were right when you said their geneforges were different from the original one. As I said earlier in this threat, I believe the original geneforge was incomplete, whereas the drakons actually finished theirs. I long to see a completed human geneforge... and to use it. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Wednesday, September 27 2006 15:28
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I can just imagine the human body parts floating around in that pool... Maybe the human Geneforge is like the Holy Grail, it should only be used by the pure (such as Galahad). -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Wednesday, September 27 2006 15:39
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quote:How did you come to that conclusion? A strong will generally means that they can resist such effects. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 27 2006 15:40
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Rrrg. If you try to make this argument spiritual I'm going to end up offending someone. I'll just pretend you didn't say that. Yes, human body parts floating around in the geneforge. We would need pieces of all the best specimens the word has to offer! Some parts of Danette, a little bit of Lord Rahul, maybe some Barzahl (not his brain though), in fact, the entire Shaper Council would do. Hmm, whose brains would we use? That is the most important part, as using the proper brain would probably be the key to not going insane. Hmm... Edit: Nioca: Drakon have a strong will only in that they can resist the control of others. The player's encounters with drakons, however, show that drakons can rarely control themselves. Imagine this inability to control themselves magnified by the geneforge, and yet this failed to happen in Geneforge 2 and 3. [ Wednesday, September 27, 2006 15:42: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Wednesday, September 27 2006 15:45
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I thought it was their inability to control each other. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 27 2006 15:53
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It matters not. In the Taker endings for Geneforge 2 and 3, many drakons use the geneforges, and they proceed to act with surprising unity and efficiently to battle the shapers. If what everyone in this thread is saying would happen happened, then they would not be able to control themselves, they would fight among themselves, and they would turn their own civilization to ruin, which they did not. They did something right with their geneforge that Danette did wrong with hers. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Wednesday, September 27 2006 16:01
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I was also talking about humans when I said that. Drakons are, quite literally, a different species. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7500
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written Thursday, September 28 2006 04:08
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Actually, when I said that "democratic", I meant a group that would divide the choices among ALL of the members, or some specifically chosen ones. This actually works. I live in a place where that works. But with this kind of powers, it would depend on humans. The group wouldn't take those who cannot be trusted to not cheat. Of course, there are always those who can fool even the most intelligent mind. Reason why I used word "democratic" was because I didn't know any better word for this. Strong will... you make the same mistake as those who say we really can make IQ tests that tell us how intelligent we are. Human brains are little more complex that just saying "pure will". The word shouldn't be even used, it leaves too much in dark. And if you say not, very well. Explain me what "strong will" means. So that it takes in account those comments back there. (sorry for the way I wrote in this one) Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, September 28 2006 06:44
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When I talk about "will" I mean as it appears in the games. We say drakons are strong willed because they can resist the control of a shaper. I also believe they are strong willed because of their general attitudes in the game. Whenever you meet a solitary drakon, it either tries to kill you outright or it tries to establish some sort of dominance over your character. As for the drakon leaders, they are strong willed in that they are Takers. They have enough strength and courage to go up against the Shaper Council. Those are my justifications for the "strong will" of drakons, my entire point being that even with the general hostility that this “will” tends to create, they seemed saner after using the geneforge, as opposed to the opposite which happened in Geneforge 1 with humans. As for democracy: if the people are allowed to make decisions, there is always the highly likley chance they will make the wrong ones. If the strongest rule, the government will be more efficient and progressive. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Thursday, September 28 2006 10:21
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The trouble with the Tullegolite philosophy is that it recognises no criteria for fitness for power other than the ability to obtain it. Your strong ruler could very well be a lunatic. This is a particular problem with hereditary rulers who may be kept in power by the strong loyalty of their followers. Quite simply, there is no infallible way to identify who is best suited to exercise absolute power. It's much better to share out power equally which limits the damage that can be done by any one individual. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, September 28 2006 10:45
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Actually, now that I think about it... It wasn't that they seemed saner, it was almost as if they had lost their personalities. Which could be very dangerous. Of course, I may be way off the mark here. No matter what kind of government you try to set up, it will always have it's shortcomings. Tullegolar pointed out the problem with a democracy. The problem with absolute rule is if the leader is corrupt or insane, evrything starts falling apart. With a republic, while everything will start out fine, some of people with power will invariably become corrupt. These numbers will grow, untill eventually the whole system is corrupt. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, September 28 2006 14:23
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There is always the chance that a leader will be a complete lunatic. This is why Tullegolite philosophy supports violent overthrowing of the government. If a lunatic does take power, it is the duty of each and every citizen to make sure that he is taken out of commission as soon as possible. Besides, I feel it is unlikely that a lunatic would ever take power under my philosophy because to become leader, one would have great difficulty taking over the world all by himself, he would need many strong supporters. Yes, he would need to be not only strong himself, but a genius that is able to garner support as well. Democracies do limit the damage done by each individual, but they also limit the progress and allow for incompetence. Governments need strong leaders. Imagine you are on a ship in the middle of a storm. What do you do? Who do you go to? Do you vote on what to do? Do you elect someone to tell you what to do? No, you go right to the captain, a man who has his position because he is the best. Someone said something about hereditary rulers, Tullegolite philosophy does not believe in hereditary rulers. I never understood why that concept was so popular throughout human history. It allows for greater incompetence than even democracy. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Thursday, September 28 2006 15:28
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It is kind of funny when you talk of captains because usually (at least until the 20th century) captains of national vessels were usually only there because of connections and in pirate vessels they were voted in by the whole crew, and only had power in the heat of battle. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, September 28 2006 15:34
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quote:Yes, but then there would be absolute chaos as almost everyone scrambles for that position. Everything would break down into anarchy. The new leader would have quite a task on his or her hands, trying to restore order. That's if some rebel group doesn't decide to use the situation to their advantage and make some sort of power play. EDIT: You haven't lived untill you hit the 'code' button instead of the 'quote' button. [ Thursday, September 28, 2006 16:45: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, September 28 2006 16:59
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I see a world ruled according to Emperor Tullegolar going through a few years of rebellion as people fight for control, then a few decades of peace once a strong leader takes charge, then another rebellion once the leader becomes too weak, and so on. Those years of rebellion would bring about great advancements in knowledge (at least the sort of knowledge that leads towards more power and control and "perfection") as everyone experiments in hopes of gaining an advantage while serviles and other creations would gain some independence and thought because no one has the effort to spare to keep them weak and under control. The periods of peace would bring serviles and other creations back into complete subservience and inferiority since there would be enough people to watch over them again, but the gain of knowledge would slow down as the leader tightens control so no one becomes more powerful than him/her. It's an interesting thought, but not one I'd want to create or live in. Originally by Nioca: quote:But Dikiyoba did die a little from trying to read the last few posts while it was still up. [ Thursday, September 28, 2006 17:10: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, September 28 2006 20:43
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Retlaw: I meant my example to be little more abstract than you took it for. I see you took it literally but did you at least understand the point I was trying to get across? quote:Nioca+Dikiyoba: You'd probably expect a quote like that to be written by me. It was actually written by a famous Chinese historian on the history of China, one of the most powerful nations in both ancient and modern history. China, while they were by no means Tullegolites, went through long periods of Empire, and whenever a particular dynasty grew weak, rebellion would ensue, and the Emperor would be replaced. This ensured that China stayed strong. Destructive, you say? I think a little rebellion every now and then is healthy for any nation. Not to mention inevitable. So why not promote it? If the government is worthy, it should not matter either way. Edit: Serviles. While I hate to admit it, it is not unreasonable to think that serviles would indeed prove a valuable resource during the periods of war. After a long enough time, centuries at least, the lines between humans and serviles may even become blurred, as both races would bleed on the field of battle. I would not try to enslave a serviles that saved my life in the middle of a skirmish. Then again, serviles are weak, and perhaps they would not be so useful in war after all. I will have to see how well they prove themselves in Geneforge 4 before I can say for sure. [ Thursday, September 28, 2006 20:49: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7500
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written Friday, September 29 2006 03:14
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Ugh. War isn't answer for who should be leader. The two ways together are the way: vote a leader who is the king, but who isn't all-powerful. There is a 200-man senate who votes for that leader's ideas: if about 140-170 vote against the decision of that leader, that decision is cancelled. The senate is chosen by voting. This system stops the leader from doing whatever he/she wants. Every four years a vote is arranged: should we take another leader? Tullegolar? I take this is a better solution. IF you don't want to kill people just for fun. Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Friday, September 29 2006 05:22
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Except that there's the possibility that some sort of uprising in the senate could interrupt the flow of things. You would have a breakdown in the government. EDIT: And that's if the people don't start throwing their loyalties to the senate instead of the emperor/king/ruler. That would be a real problem. [ Friday, September 29, 2006 07:10: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Friday, September 29 2006 10:07
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Another problem with democracies is that they tend to lead to party politics. This tends to result in the senate or whatever being split right down the middle, hampering the decision making process. Also, if you are going to vote for leaders, this requires either a very small or a very educated population. Since we are talking about the world of Geneforge, these people are neither small in number nor well educated. They would not know who to vote for, and there would be either total chaos or inept leaders elected. War, on the other hand, leads to heroes. Heroes tend to garner the love of the people and they tend to be good leaders. War brings out the best in people, and thus it is an excellent way to find leaders. It wouldn’t be killing people for fun, it would be killing people for progress and prosperity. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Friday, September 29 2006 11:57
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quote:No, tragedy brings out the best in people. War brings out the worst. quote:The problem with this theory is that people need a villan to fight. This leads to genocide. Hitler is a prime example of this. Also, you're betting a lot on the possibility that this will bring forward a leader. While good in theory, what if no one steps up? -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, September 29 2006 14:12
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Hitler picked on the weak. Tullegotlites pick on the strong. There would be little to gain from attacking the weak, in fact, it would be best to have them on your side, as it would make world domination that much easier. The villains would simply be the strongest in society, and the hero would be the villain that wins in the end. If no winner/leader arises, then everyone is simply doing a pathetic job of fighting, and they must continue until such as time as one does. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Friday, September 29 2006 16:03
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Except that he/she would be overthrown soon after he/she took power, because, as you elequently put it, he/she is merely the villain that won in the end. quote:My point is, what if a hero doesn't show up? What if they just fight themselves to extinction? [ Friday, September 29, 2006 16:07: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |