Shapers keeping secrets

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AuthorTopic: Shapers keeping secrets
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #100
Student of Trinity: Very funny. Please tell me then: who funds your research? Since you are blurring the lines between two distinct worlds again, I'll be more specific to the modern era this time, just for you.

I'll bet your research is funded by a multinational corporation. Who owns those? The aristocracy of the modern era, of course. I will admit, they are not only funding scientists because they can, but also because they think they can make even more money from it, but it matters not. Either way, a large amount of investment capital is required, and the best way to get that capital is from people who have a lot of extra money to throw around. In medieval times, this was the Count of Montecristo, today, it's your multinational corporations.

Crafterlord: I believe that technology and new inventions tend to trickle down, no matter what the leader wants. A hundred years ago, the average person having a car was out of the question. However, because the rich were motivated to benefit themselves by making cars cheaper and easier to obtain, it directly benefited the common people as well. Thus, if a leader takes on a policy of rapid progress, it can only benefit everyone, no matter what their standing in the social pyramid may be.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #101
quote:
I don't think the US does a particularly large share of addressing humanitarian crises, though I could be wrong about this. But I'm pretty sure the US Navy is a little overpowered for the job of keeping down piracy.
The US does a lot more than some are led to believe and a lot less in some cases. Historically, the US has taken a decent share of the role. It could, and perhaps should, do more.

Actually look at the piracy statistics. After the Cold War, the Soviet Union and the US cut their navies substantially such that piracy is now a serious concern. It was not this way 20 years ago. Strong navies are vital to keeping pirates at bay as history shows. Without the US Navy, piracy would be even worse.

quote:
The United States is a military superpower, but like most nation states it pursues its own interests as perceived by its government of the day. It doesn't tend to spend its taxpayers' billions or its servicemen's lives on causes that do not serve its interests, however noble they might be. People often point this out as though it were damning, but I don't see too many other countries lining up to die for noble causes either.
That is true, but keep in mind global security is a US interest so it tends to get involved in a lot of things for this reason. Again, the US should probably do more.

quote:
I think that eventually humanity will get a global police force, but the United States' military is not it. In my opinion it should neither be praised for being what it isn't, nor blamed for not being so.
That's why I put quotes around it such that it shouldn't be taken literally. It's not a police force or military force globally in the traditional sense. To be fair, the US does tend historically to make up much of UN and NATO forces.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #102
I'm funded from taxes levied by a liberal democracy, mostly on its broad middle class. So is most science, except for pharmaceuticals; and so it has been for a couple of centuries or so.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #103
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I'm funded from taxes levied by a liberal democracy, mostly on its broad middle class. So is most science, except for pharmaceuticals; and so it has been for a couple of centuries or so.
This statement interested me, because I've heard people say this, and I've heard people say the opposite, neither ever providing statistics. This essentially is two statistical statements: first, tax comes mostly from the middle class, and second, most science is funded by the government.

Here's the statistics behind the first one. There's a page on irs.gov that has a whole bunch of tax statistics from as recently as 2003. (Click on the first "All Returns" category to get the file I'm talking about. In the left-most column of the spreadsheet, it gives income ranges, and in the right-most column, it gives total taxation from that range.) Apparently, more than half of all tax in the U.S. (a whopping 62%) comes from people between the income levels of $50,000 and $500,000. Indeed, 46% comes from people between the income levels of $50,000 and $200,000, which is pretty much still in the middle class range. The very rich ($1,000,000 or higher) pay a total of around 18% of all tax.

Thus, it's pretty fair to say that most tax income comes from the middle class (and another good chunk from the lower end of the upper class).

Note here that we're talking about personal income tax alone, not sales tax, business taxes, or anything like that. However, according to this page, the overwhelming share of the tax revenue that the federal government gets comes from individual income tax and only a small chunk from businesses and other things.

Next issue: is science largely funded by the government? According to nsf.gov's page on the subject, industry does the majority (68%) of R&D in the U.S., but universities and colleges did 55% of all basic research in the U.S. (which is probably what we're talking about when we talk about "science"). According to this page, 64% of all university and college funding for R&D comes from the federal government, and presumably that applies as much or more to basic research, too.

In other words, it is also pretty fair to say that most science in the present-day U.S. is funded by the government, which gets most of its taxes from the middle class and the moderately (not extremely) wealthy.

[ Monday, September 18, 2006 14:54: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #104
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

industry does the majority (68%)... it is also pretty fair to say that most science in the present-day U.S. is funded by the government
Uh, so which is it? Since you seem to be fine with saying both do the majority, it seems I'm going to have to draw my own conclusion. You statistics clearly state that industry does the most R&D and it also puts the most money towards it. Industry wins, I told you. Fat businessmen seeking to benefit themselves equals progress.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #105
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Uh, so which is it? Since you seem to be fine with saying both do the majority, it seems I'm going to have to draw my own conclusion. You statistics clearly state that industry does the most R&D and it also puts the most money towards it. Industry wins, I told you.
It would help if you finished reading the sentence, you doofus.
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

industry does the majority (68%) of R&D in the U.S., but universities and colleges did 55% of all basic research in the U.S. (which is probably what we're talking about when we talk about "science").
There is a difference between "R&D" as defined by the NSF and "basic research" as defined by the NSF. Basic research more resembles what one would think of as traditional scientific inquiry.

[ Monday, September 18, 2006 17:34: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #106
Irrelevant. Who does the research is not in question here. Your forgot what the topic was after only three posts, a new record. The matter at hand is funding for research, remember? And your statistics say... industry wins. I win. I always win. I am the Emperor.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #107
Tullegolar: Your arrogance really annoys us. Cut it out please.

As far as who does the most research, it's hard to say because you have to define "research". Most of the engineering and drug development research/design goes on at corporations. Most of the "fundamental science" goes on at universities. Most of the national security stuff goes on at laboratories or contractors.

Here's an interesting question. If the government pays a corporation to develop say missile X, is that a government research project or a corporate one?

Basically, the question is not as simple as you are acting. Realize that it all depends on the definition which may vary based on the beholder.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #108
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

The matter at hand is funding for research, remember?
And government funds the institutions that do most of the research. I'm not sure how I can be more clear than this. Who does the research? Colleges and universities. Where do they get their money? The government. Thus, the government funds the research.

[ Monday, September 18, 2006 21:09: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 7500
Profile #109
Tullegolar, last time when you were "talking to me", you got the point very well.

I'm not annoyed by your arrogance, but some people are. And well, you should take a stance where you want to learn more, not to teach. No offense. And I'm almost sure you will tell me that it's different. That you are not "teaching, but giving us facts", or something similar. Maybe.

And to the point: I'm thinking Microsoft.

[ Tuesday, September 19, 2006 03:09: Message edited by: Crafterlord ]
Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #110
I am beginning to think that the question we are trying to answer has far to many facets. While on one hand, I think that the fact that 63% of all research being paid for by industry is good enough to conclude that industry pays for most research. On the other hand, you think that the fact that 55% of research done by universities being paid for by the government is reason enough to conclude that government pays for most research. While I think my argument is clearly superior, it is difficult to argue against either.

*i: Your whining really annoys me. Cut it out please.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #111
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

While on one hand, I think that the fact that 63% of all research being paid for by industry is good enough to conclude that industry pays for most research.
This is not a statistic that I quoted, and you have not mentioned it before. Where does it come from? The same site?

quote:
*i: Your whining really annoys me. Cut it out please.
He's an admin. You would do well to treat him with some respect.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #112
Kelandon: Yes, it is from the same site. Take note that one percentage is how much research industry does, the other is how much they pay for.

By the way, I follow your rules. If I want to be arrogant, that is my business.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #113
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Yes, it is from the same site.
I didn't see that statistic. Could you provide a link to the page on which it appears and a description of where on the page to find it?
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

By the way, I follow your rules. If I want to be arrogant, that is my business.
quote:
Originally written in the CoC:
+ Any communication that is intended to harass, belittle, humiliate, threaten or cause embarrassment to a fellow member.
The traditional interpretation of this rule is that being nasty and unpleasant constitutes an infraction.

[ Tuesday, September 19, 2006 08:01: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #114
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

According to nsf.gov's page on the subject
Here is the link... provided by yourself just a few posts ago. Edit: If you have trouble finding it is the second bullet from the top.

If you have further comments on my attitude, please send me a private message. I find it very inappropriate to discuss these things in public.

[ Tuesday, September 19, 2006 08:29: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #115
"Industry was also the largest source of R&D funding, paying for 63 percent of all R&D."
Need I remind you that there is a difference between "R&D" and "basic research"? Of course industry does most of the R&D. I said that already. That's not what one would call normal science, though.

Look, I do some R&D work myself. I work for a test-prep company, and I take the SAT every time it's offered. Then I send in a report about how well the techniques that we teach worked on the test. In response to my reports, the people who write our materials make slight adjustments in order to match the test better. That's R&D, but it'd be hard to call that "science."

EDIT: I guess this discussion is over. I win in the end. :P

[ Tuesday, September 19, 2006 08:49: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #116
Wow. Why did he get banned? (I have a pretty good idea, but I just want to confirm.)

EDIT: That's what I thought.

Hey! I'm a mercenary! Oh... Emperor Tullegolar was a mercenary... This can't be a good sign... :eek:

[ Tuesday, September 19, 2006 10:07: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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AmnesiaDileciaThe Empire's New GroveExpress Delivery
Twilight ValleyWitch HuntWhere the Rivers MeetFoul Hordes
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Agent
Member # 2759
Profile Homepage #117
I think his posts in this thread provide abdundant grounds for a ban.

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"I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius

Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00
Agent
Member # 1934
Profile Homepage #118
Good. He was annoying.

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You acquire an item: Radio Free Foil
Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #119
All right, I think the discussion on Tullegolar has gone on long enough. Let's get back to the substantial issues of the thread.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #120
Need I remind you, Stareye, that Tullegolar was the one fueling more then half of the debate? I think this thread is through.

Nioca, don't worry it's all part of ranking system. The only dangerous titles are Canned and BANNED.

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Pass the sauerkraut and chips please.
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #121
Does it make sense to call corporations the 'bored fat rich elite' of today? I'd say, hardly. They're often rich, but they are usually owned by some aggregate of mutual funds who are owned collectively by all sorts of nobodies, including me. More importantly, probably, they are mostly only rich by giving the mass of people what they want in the way of products. In this sense they have no power at all: if people all just decide to buy something else, the corporation dies. Which often happens.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #122
A more pressing concern is the fact that everyone here thinks that all the rich elite are bored and fat. It's possible to have non-bored, skinny elite. :D

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AmnesiaDileciaThe Empire's New GroveExpress Delivery
Twilight ValleyWitch HuntWhere the Rivers MeetFoul Hordes
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #123
Actually these days its more likely to have bored, skinny (anorexic) elite. Think Paris Hilton and the other trust fund idiots.

Still ET had trouble between all R&D and basic R&D which is only a part. Since Bell Labs (Lucent soon to be Alcatel) decided to go from basic research to applied research there aren't many places in industry that do research without the emphais on the bottom line. Gone are the days where Xerox's PARC would develope ideas that other companies would use like the graphical interface (Apple), Ethernet connection, etc.

[ Tuesday, September 19, 2006 18:29: Message edited by: Randomizer ]
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #124
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

It's possible to have non-bored, skinny elite. :D
Only Julius Caesar. All other elite are fat and bored. Don't you read Asterix?

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00

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