Shapers keeping secrets
Pages
| Author | Topic: Shapers keeping secrets |
|---|---|
|
Apprentice
Member # 7500
|
written Wednesday, September 20 2006 04:59
Profile
I see the discussion is over. Somehow I have a feeling that Emperor always brought us more problems to think of. I guess he was too arrogant, but *ahem* despite that, he had interesting points. And please get back to that old style of philosophy, politics etc. Even if it is against the idea of game forum, in the end. And, just look at the start of this forum and look what started this war of beliefs :P Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7472
|
written Wednesday, September 20 2006 15:54
Profile
Homepage
quote:No. I don't know what it is, either. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 7333
|
written Friday, September 22 2006 07:34
Profile
Now that the discusson is limited to people with a more sane disposition, I refer back to my earlier point: technology and research in and of itself isn't inherently bad, but research based on dubious goals and ambitions will always have negative consequences. The people (in-game) who want to build Geneforges aren't doing it because they want to advance mankind into a new era but for their own selfish ends while those who rather see such research banned and all of its products destroyed understand the motivation is based on greed and lust for power rather than a genuine desire to use shaping to benefit human beings. You can argue about whether Shapers do this only to maintain the status quo that keeps them in power or they do it because they are genuinely motivated to prevent humankind from destroying itself with Shaping technology, but it's inarguable that if they DIDN'T do anything, life could be a lot worse for everybody. Their philosophy and regime is far from perfect, but it's a far better alternative than allowing any megalomaniacal crackpot to form a cult and build a Geneforge to transform themselves into its "god." Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
|
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
|
written Friday, September 22 2006 11:51
Profile
Originally written by J. Robert Oppenheimer: quote: -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
|
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
|
written Friday, September 22 2006 12:04
Profile
Asterix. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7472
|
written Friday, September 22 2006 12:29
Profile
Homepage
Ah... Thanks, but I'll pass... -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
|
written Friday, September 22 2006 14:27
Profile
The idea behind cannisters and the geneforge was to be able to systematically improve life instead of the hit and usually miss method in use. This would prevent the disaster that destroyed the original inhabitants of Sucia Island. The problem was that the rebels are indiscriminately passing out improvements without any control on who gets them. In stable trained hands it wouldn't be too bad, but most of the recipients are disasters that now have the power to destroy more than themselves. ET before he was banned assumed that might would be a good enough method of determining who should get increased power without worrying about the mental instabilities that would occur. While more research is necessary, it must be restricted until a reliable method exists to prevent madness. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7472
|
written Saturday, September 23 2006 08:57
Profile
Homepage
Another way to decide might be to have canisters open to everyone. However, before they can use a canister, they have to pass some sort of sanity test. If they are determined to be mentally unstable, they can't use one. Now, if that same person comes back for another canister, they have to take the sanity test again. This keeps people from becoming genocidal monsters by cutting them off before they reach the point of mental instability. This enforces Emperor Tullegolar's point of view without endangering normal people. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 7500
|
written Sunday, September 24 2006 04:25
Profile
Congratulations Nioca. Thought enruling this could have it's own problems, naturally. There are people who at first don't seem mad, but are mad. Then would be those who would steal it or a new cult, where one person is chosen as "god", with his "followers" taking care of people who would be in the way of taking the canister. (Yes, the cultist thing is... something that wouldn't probably happen.) The Shapers probably have different purposes. The common idea (in my opinion) is that they want to keep the power for themselves. For some reason, humans like power. Well, power itself is only a way. Purpose is what makes us want power. If somebody wants to tell me that some want power for no purpose, please give me example. And, (sorry for this off-topic) I never would have thought when I first looked at these forums that they talk philosophy and such here... whee Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7472
|
written Sunday, September 24 2006 06:58
Profile
Homepage
I spent two years watching these forums before I finally decided to join, so I had a little time to prepare myself. :D quote:Then what do you call the 19 posts after Tullegolar's banning? EDIT: Typo. [ Sunday, September 24, 2006 13:00: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Sunday, September 24 2006 09:41
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Nioca: quote:A new discussion, obviously. Originally by Crafterlord: quote:Especially since the effects of the canisters often take some time to develop, and no one knows which canister will finally drive them to madness. People occasionally post to ask how many canisters they can take before it affects their ending. In real life, you can't get that sort of guarantee. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7472
|
written Sunday, September 24 2006 13:03
Profile
Homepage
True, but they wouldn't be using canisters one after another. Also, the chances of a civilian using more than one or two canisters is remote, at best. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
|
written Sunday, September 24 2006 18:00
Profile
Considering how quickly the Sholai became addicted to cannisters it might take only a few before desire for more becomes important. Even trained shapers became addicted and felt just one more will have a calming effect (GF1 - Sealed Lab). There will always be someone who finds a way to circumvent the rules. Either by finding a way to fake sanity or to get cannisters illegally from the weakest link in the distribution chain. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 7500
|
written Monday, September 25 2006 03:20
Profile
To Nioca: what I ment back there by saying "discussion over", I meant that the philosophy etc. was over. Thought I see they either started new discussion/they are continuing the old. The Point of this post: Hmmhmm. Maybe if the users of canisters were watched over by authority, like nation? Thought this wouldn't help for those who take them in secret/steal them... But, in that case, I would (yes, I use my own opinion here, but there are more of opinions... and I'm saying that all the time...) make a law that punishes those who steal canisters without the sanity test. I see killing would be the best way, so they surely wouldn't use those powers. And to research the way to not lose sanity when you use canister... hmmhmm. Good point. Though didn't somebody at some point say you could not get mad if you just tried not to very hardly? Maybe only those should be allowed in that case, those of strong willpower. Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7472
|
written Monday, September 25 2006 05:53
Profile
Homepage
Sounds good to me. Of course, you always have the problem of who's watching the watchers... -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:34
Profile
Homepage
Chairface: What do you have against science? You say you only hate the science with negative consequences? All science has negative consequences, whether it be the time and money invested in it or something more... fatal. We must deal with these things. You are right, however, when you say the geneforge was created by those seeking power rather than enlightenment. But, can the same not be said for all science? Almost everything ever invented had profit as one of the primary motivations. If they actually benefit society as well, it’s a bonus. The geneforge has too many possible benefits to be called a total failure just because of one mistake, that mistake being Trajkov. Also, who says megalomaniacs are a bad thing? Alexander the Great took over the world once. After he did this, he made it a policy to spread knowledge all over his Empire, not to keep it from everyone, like you suggest. It is because of him that all the knowledge of the Greeks survived the Dark Ages. Testing for Canisters: I do not approve of canisters, for they are not strong enough. Also, Randomizer is right, could the testers be bribed? Could someone fake sanity? Most likely. Canisters are not the answer. More research into the geneforge is what's needed! And who better to build new and improved geneforges than someone who has partaken of one themselves? Cult: An interesting thought, though I believe no cult would be necessary. In the world of Geneforge, the only gods the people will ever need are themselves. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:41
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Emperor Tullegolar: quote:I feel that Trajkov was one of the sucess stories, actually. He took all the power the Geneforge could give him while still managing to hold onto his sanity. Then he went and destroyed the Shaper empire and built his own in their place. It probably wasn't an empire much better than the Shapers (if at all), but it was a lot better than the death and destruction your character or Goettsch caused after they used the Geneforge. Dikiyoba. Edit: Found Goettsch's name and fixed quote. [ Tuesday, September 26, 2006 16:44: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
The Establishment
Member # 6
|
written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:53
Profile
Trajkov actually was a lot kinder to the Serviles and creations as I recall. Power without wisdom generally leads to destruction. The Geneforge is not inherently bad, although it does have bad side effects. As long as the power is used reasonably that's fine. However, it's very difficult to ensure this. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Tuesday, September 26 2006 16:56
Profile
Homepage
What's this? I have erred? You got me. I suppose what I meant to say was that the mistake was the way the Shapers left the geneforge behind to be found by outsiders in the first place. You are correct, of course, Trajkov is the best example of the geneforge being used the way it was meant to be. He was a great man. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
|
written Tuesday, September 26 2006 17:08
Profile
The geneforge was left behind because the creators thought that after a reasonable discussion their fellow shapers would continue the research. Even when the island was barred, they sneaked back to continue in secrecy and were buried there. The shapers who used the geneforge in the endings of GF1 all seem to lose control. The apprentice playing GF1 hasn't got enough training to control his changes. The other shapers seem to all have personality disorders that were magnified by using it. These maybe be part of the shaper's arrogance that is manifest in GF3 when the apprentice makes demands for free supplies, etc. There seems to be hints that most shapers are normally this way. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7472
|
written Tuesday, September 26 2006 17:14
Profile
Homepage
quote:True, but it takes power to get power. The canisters, while dangerous, are a decent middle ground, so long as they're controlled. quote::eek: YIKES! :eek: Hundreds of people with limitless power unleashing their wrath on each other, with no consideration for anyone caught in the middle, is asking for trouble. There were a few places in the Geneforge series where the zone was a desolate wasteland because of power-hungry warlords. If every person held this power, the only thing left of that world will be a few scattered desert islands. In other words, Armageddon. That said, I was hoping I wouldn't get dragged into this. This already was a difficult issue, but Emperor Tullegolar always seems to be able to counter you, no matter how clever your argument is. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Tuesday, September 26 2006 17:15
Profile
Homepage
Even if they did sneak back the experiments were still left there for anyone to find. I can't help but wonder why on earth the Council did not take more direct control over such powerful and important research. Did they actually think it was more than they could handle? Did there bottomless arrogance actually fail them? As for magnifying personality disorders: I must point out the Drakons in Geneforge 2 and 3. They went from being cruel and unreasonable to actually deciding to spare your life after you helped them. This is good evidence for the possibility of perfecting geneforge technology to not make you crazy. Edit: Nioca: You say it takes power to get power. This is why the geneforge must be used. The canisters are not a middle ground, they are obsolete. As for people being gods: who says they can not be benevolent ones? Once they have all the power in the world they will have little else to do other than reflect on such things as philosophy and good leadership. Only then will they be truly perfect, true gods. [ Tuesday, September 26, 2006 17:19: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7472
|
written Tuesday, September 26 2006 17:43
Profile
Homepage
quote:I think this pretty much sums it up. The slightest flaw in someones personality can leave them unhinged after using the geneforge. When the geneforge can be used without the person becoming a genocidal doomsday weapon, then by all means, have everyone use it. Untill then, distribute small quantities of canisters. quote:I'll point out that, in GF2 and 3, they remain cruel and unreasonable. Only now, they are cruel, unreasonable, and very powerful. Nasty combo. quote:There could be a few benevolent ones. But most of them would be to busy trying to get more power to care. Besides, if they all have the same power, they're no longer gods, are they? :P [ Tuesday, September 26, 2006 17:45: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Tuesday, September 26 2006 18:11
Profile
Homepage
They don't remain cruel and unreasonable. Like I said, they let you live among them in peace. In Geneforge 3, they even care enough about you to rescue you from the Shapers in the ending. It would seem the geneforge did not magnify their hatred, but opened their eyes to the fact that a Shaper could be a friend. You all seem to use the argument that a geneforge would lead to gods battling against each other. I suppose this is a good point. You have convinced me of the following: no more than one person at a time should have geneforge powers. It has been proven that these powers do not make one invincible, so I suspect a crappy ruler would be overthrown if necessary. Otherwise, that ruler would pretty much spend his time perfecting himself, and he would expect the same of his subjects. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 7500
|
written Wednesday, September 27 2006 05:21
Profile
Emperor is back I see. So, if there were a secret group that would lead that ruler who has those powers (by saying they will kill him/her if he/she doesn't obey their will), who would be counted as the leader. Now I mean all do have points, but IF this happened, what would happen? One man doesn't win the war. People are the power. Of course, this group, would it have a leader (possibly elected) or would it be, well, I don't know if the word is correct, democratistic group? Adn the last thing... while the geneforge should be researched and the best one to research would be those who have used it, it isn't requirement... you just can study some people who, let's say, are murderers/people who have committed serious crimes, and have geneforge. Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00 |