Shapers keeping secrets
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 23:34
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quote:So basically, history tells you that governments that believe that might makes right consistently end up being overpowered by governments that don't believe that might makes right. Doesn't that seem like a pretty heavy blow to your philosophy? After all, if might makes right, and governments that refuse to believe that might makes right are mightier, then it's right to refuse to believe that might makes right. [ Thursday, September 14, 2006 23:35: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, September 15 2006 05:25
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quote:Wait, did you just say that war creates surpluses of resources for general consumption? That's got to be one of the most obviously false things I've ever heard. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7333
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written Friday, September 15 2006 08:46
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quote:The reason the US gets pissed that a totalitarian communist regime that doesn't respect the civil or even basic human rights of its citizens studying neuclear weaponary is because its dimunitive megalomaniacal tyrant with a Napolean complex is one of the few people insane and stupid enough to use such technology without concern for consequence or retaliation. That and the fact that the US and Russia have gone through great pains to disarm and dismantle their stockpiles, and the prospect of unstable states getting their hands on such dangerous technology just to play "me too" is bad for everybody, not just the US. quote:Wow. Where do I even begin with this? First of all, Hitler ended teh depression at the expense of the "undesirables;" if you round up all the Jews, mentally ill, homosexual, Gypsies, and ethnic minorities and seize their assets, it's easy to get money for nothing. That, and shifting the economy into the development of a war machine allows you to build plenty of tanks and fightercraft but it doesn't do much for the average citizen. Stalin ran Russia into the ground and created a cult of personality that didn't dare question his judgement, at least loud enough to be heard, unless you wanted to be taken to the Pogroms by the KGB. Mao's national brainwashing only managed to ruin China's cultural history and growth. I don't know what world industrial power you're talking about -- China is still in the process of transitioning from a developing nation and besides a handful of cities, is mostly rural. The Incas and Aztecs were just as "civilized" as their European counterparts, the only difference being they didn't have the guns or immunity to small pox neccesary to write history from their perspective. No nation based on drastic social upheaval has ever lasted more than two generations. If research into the Geneforge was opened up and rebllion was encouraged according to your "philosophy," whatever would be left of humanity in Geneforge would live in a barely habitable wasteland, split into tribes warring over secrets and information that would allow their sect to build a better Geneforge than their enemies and crush them so their will reigns supreme. Nothing can flourish in a world of endless war. Technology actually slows during war because the focus is shifted from a fundamental understanding of a field to the fastest and most applicable use to deter or conquer you enemies. Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, September 15 2006 10:46
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Allow me to say again that I do not approve of canisters, and I only approve of the geneforge because it can be used to reach the next step, which is a refined geneforge that doesn't make you crazy. As for shaping powers destroying the land, I have not seen sufficient evidence of this. Rising and Medab look like nice places to live. Would you rather live in Drypeak? (don't misinterpret this, I am referring to these cities geographically, not politically) Thuryl: The historical earthly ‘might makes right’ rulers were stupid and weak. Had Japan not attacked the U.S. and Germany not attacked the U.S.S.R., the war would have ended differently. But then look at the world today, I see the United States, which is the uncontested most powerful country in the world, as a ‘might makes right’ nation. They invade whom they please, despite the dissension of the rest of the world and their own citizens. Why? Because they can - I mean... because it's their duty. Kelandon: Another misinterpretation, read the quote again. I said progress flourishes during times of war, meaning there are many new scientific advancements. Then I said that shaping would allow for surpluses. The shaping concept can’t really be applied to real life. Chairface: No. Hitler didn't end the depression in Germany by taking money from the Jews and giving to other citizens. Do you really think that was all there was to it? Who taught you history? As for building tanks and whatnot, that gives jobs to the average citizen, doesn't it? When the government purchases weapons, it is increasing the nation's GDP, which also benefits the common citizen. Stalin and Mao did bring industrialization to their nations, no matter what you say. Russia was eventually brought down by the Cold War, but even today they benefit from the industrialization that took place under Stalin. As for China, they produce 90% of everything that Americans buy. The one reason that I am not afraid of a China vs. U.S. War ever breaking out is because neither side wants to lose the trading partner. Finally, the Aztecs would have lines of men, women and children four bodies wide that would stretch on for miles leading up to the tops of their temples where they would all then be sacrificed the removal of the victims heart. Civilized? They sound like genocidal maniacs to me. quote:Wouldn't you want to play that game? I would. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Friday, September 15 2006 12:17
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quote:Would you want to live in that world? I wouldn't. -------------------- All praise the greatest mod of all time! Long live Master Aran! Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, September 15 2006 12:27
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Most people couldn't handle it. This is understandable. Edit: I have been accused, multiple times, in this thread of blurring the line between the Geneforge games and reality. But it seems I am the only one that is really trying to keep these two subjects separate. [ Friday, September 15, 2006 12:30: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Friday, September 15 2006 16:41
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I'll tell you something ET, there would be no food in the Geneforge world if your philosophy was adapted. As for your belief of all these suto-Shapers creating a way to fix that 1)they wouldn't have the training 2)anyone with any power would be using it for destructive purpouses. Also, as for your coment as you being the only one keeping the boundries between the real world and that of Geneforge, that is a joke. What you may interpret as the others blurring the line is just reponse to your eratic jumping of topics and examples. You concede something in one post, but are using it again in the next. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Friday, September 15 2006 17:16
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Allowing access to shaping technology to anyone with the resources to develope it would be a disaster. The Sholai when they discovered Sucia Island started experimenting without the safeguards that experienced Shapers used. This resulted in some Sholai researchers being killed by their new modified creations. That is why Shapers have so many sealed labs and barred areas to contain their mistakes until they can be dealt with safely. Even under controlled conditions mistakes escape into the world. The disease that infects the man in Fort Kentia (GF3) is one example. The trees in Drypeak (GF2) are another where something got out before it was fully tested. A war between geneforge enhanced people who are fully trained would unleash more terrors than benefits. In the rush to defeat the others there would be less concern with adequate precautions. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Friday, September 15 2006 18:36
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quote:If all things were equal, you would have a valid point. The US and the old Soviet Union made a lot of effort at maintaining world security. Now, we could argue specific policies were incorrect all day, but that's not the point. Who else patrols the oceans with large navies to keep piracy down? Who else makes provides manpower to help defeat aggressive acts and address humanitarian crises? Who else goes to extreme measures to root out terrorist groups around the world? Who else invests a large amount of its resources ensuring dangerous materials (such as nuclear warheads) do not end up in the hands of those who would actually use them? Who else defends their own materials and ensures they don't accidentally goes off to the same degree? There are many countries who do part of this, but, by and large, the US carries the brunt of the "world police" duties. A lot of countries like that we do these things, but don't actually like it when we do them. Call it somewhat schizoid, but politics need not be logically consistent. Is the US perfect? Of course not. Should the US have done things differently? No one would argue. But like it or not, the US plays a dominant role in maintaining world security and the world would be a lot worse off without it. So why should the US even have nuclear weapons? Well, if we look at how war has evolved since WWII, they've become much smaller in scale because the costs of a large scale war are too high. Such wars become, in essence, unwinnable. Both sides may lose, but the agressor cannot win. This takes out all motivation for large scale conventional warfare. The problem is that nuclear weapons do not preclude "unconventional war" like the terrorist threats we face today. The problem is with asymmetry. Use of nuclear weapons on disperate groups is impractical especially when there is no sponsor state. However, their use upon a nationstate such as the US would be a major benefit to them since their goals are to strike fear and cause death. The risk means terrorists or those without territories should not have them. Since they, in effect, have no instant retalliatory consequences of using them. But what about other nation states like North Korea or Iran? Well, the problem is that they do not partake in global security responsibilities. In fact, they have actively encouraged disorder and disobeyed treaties. Because of this, there is no motivation to covertly give such a weapon to a terrorist entity for asymmetrical war purposes. In effect, they have not demonstrated a commitment to global security and would gain by giving such a weapon to a terroist group. So it's easy to argue for egalitarianism with nuclear weapons. However, in practice these things cannot work because the costs to globabl security are prohibitively high. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, September 15 2006 20:18
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Retlaw: Of course there would be food, that's what serviles are for. Shouldn’t serviles have the same rights that I'm saying all humans should have? Of course not! Preposterous! Randomizer: The Sholai got more power than they deserved. Tullegolite philosophy believes in basic power for all, but also in earning new powers through feats of strength. The shapers foolishly abandoned the geneforge for anyone to find instead of keeping it to themselves, this was their fault, not mine. As for mistakes, they are inevitable, yet another means of rooting out the weak, there was a cure for that guy's disease, he was just not powerful enough to find it. *i: Yes, yes yes! The United States is an excellent example of my philosophy in action! They are the ones who were able to rise above all other warring factions (European nations) and take control of the world themselves. Now they make it their duty to keep the world on it's toes, lest they ever be overpowered by another country. They also support overthrowing of the government (elections), and they believe in equal opportunity for all, though not necessarily equal means. My idea government would be more meritocratic the the United State’s current system, however. I believe that the most powerful factions have a right to deprive the lesser ones of certain things, such as nukes or geneforges. However, should these lesser players succeed in gaining these things anyway, they have earned the right to be on equal ground with the other world leaders. The United States has a right to stop another nation from researching nuclear weapons, but should they do it anyway, they have earned the right. The same applies to geneforges, in my humble Imperial opinion. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, September 15 2006 22:36
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quote:But serviles taste horrible! (Sorry. I know what you meant, but I couldn't resist.) -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 12:07
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No servile could plant in the dead ground that would result from your philosophy. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 13:00
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quote:I don't think the US does a particularly large share of addressing humanitarian crises, though I could be wrong about this. But I'm pretty sure the US Navy is a little overpowered for the job of keeping down piracy. The United States is a military superpower, but like most nation states it pursues its own interests as perceived by its government of the day. It doesn't tend to spend its taxpayers' billions or its servicemen's lives on causes that do not serve its interests, however noble they might be. People often point this out as though it were damning, but I don't see too many other countries lining up to die for noble causes either. I think that eventually humanity will get a global police force, but the United States' military is not it. In my opinion it should neither be praised for being what it isn't, nor blamed for not being so. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 19:28
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quote:I suppose you have a point there. There must be some kind of alternate food source... quote:I know, I know. But if what Retlaw here says is true we may have no other choice. Hmm, if we can make battle serviles and exploding serviles, then surely we can make extra meaty serviles that taste like cotton candy. Edit: Seriously though, you're overthinking this. If the mages of Avernum can find a way to grow food on a solid rock cave floor with no light, then surely the shapers, who specialize in the area of creating new life forms, would be able to create food that grows in a wasteland. Simple as that. [ Saturday, September 16, 2006 19:32: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 20:23
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Shapers can create food crops, as in GF2 beyond Drypeak. The question is whether there will be unintended consequences that have occured in other shaper plants. The crops might over run the area and cause new problems. Of course there is always vlish if they can make it delicious. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 20:39
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Mmm... Calamari... -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 20:44
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Sure there is always a possibility of a shaper plant growing out of control, but is it a bad thing to have food growing everywhere? If it suddenly becomes inedible for some reason, then I'm sure the plant in question could easily be wiped out with a simple application of shaper violence. If there is one thing the shapers do well, its destroying things. As for vlish, they are undoubtedly the tastiest of all shaper creations, even tastier than ornks. The only problem is that they have so little meat on them. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, September 17 2006 09:24
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Not so. As Delicious Vlish likes to remind us, one of the games (G2?) has a text box which states that Vlish were deliberately designed to taste bad. There is as yet no canonical verdict on the flavors of other creations. But G4 isn't finished yet. Having recently stared hard at the large scale Vlish art from G3, I have to correct something I wrote quite a while ago. Vlish have not two tentacles, but three. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Sunday, September 17 2006 10:54
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quote:The problem of the plants growing too much isn't that they will take the land over, but that they will suck all the nutrients out of the soil. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7500
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written Sunday, September 17 2006 11:55
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Hmm. I'm under impression that our Emperor is all about progress. Correct me if I am wrong. Progression can be achieved by strong destroying the weak? Interesting point. And if somebody wants to be strong, if he can do it, what is the problem? Actually, this reminds me of Dostovjevski. Let us invent thing called "Overall Happiness". This is the sum of how much food all have, do most of people have good homes etc. So, if strong use war to destroy weak, isn't this "Overall Happiness" either rised or lowered? If this war brings us progression, then "Overall Happiness" is increased. But if this war leads us to a country where all fear for their life, or to anarchy, where you still fear for your life, or to a country where there isn't just enough food for everyone etc? Then "Overall Happiness" is lowered. Now to progression. The end of progression is perfection, no? When is this perfection achieved? What do we fight for? If we fight for power, we have to have a reason to have power. If we all had enough food, good houses, that stuff, why would somebody fight? So, should we research for that Geneforge that doesn't make you insane, so all... no, those who won't abuse the power, can do research on how to make our all lifes perfect. But the same time people are getting angry, for research takes time. And they rebel, for they want happy lifes quickly. Because of that, they shouldn't be allowed power without somebody to watch over them. I think somebody, maybe the Emperor, talked about that at some time. All the point with this is... I'm tired, I probably haven't got the point of the discussion and I'm stupid. And I hope that I at least did SOMETHING. (Send me e-mail if you want to explain me the point of this discussion in private) Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, September 18 2006 04:17
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Retlaw: Did you hear anything I said? Or are you seriously afraid that the plants that would be specially created to grow in nutrient-free soils would make the soil more nutrient-free than it already is? The Tullegolite philosophy has many holes in it, but this is not one of them. Crafterlord: What you are describing sounds much like utilitarianism, correct me if I'm wrong. Utilitarianism means, in as few words as possible "greatest amount of happiness for the greatest amount of people." I do not agree with this philosophy. If you try to spread happiness around more evenly, then those at the top are the ones that lose. You can't have this. Madness? Contemplate this: scientific advancement and progress can only happen if you have an elite class wealthy enough to keep interest in and fund it. Look at human history, the Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution happened because it was during a period in European history where elite became so fat and bored they figured 'hey, let's do science!' So you see, a large gap in the economy is preferable if you want progress in science and technology. It works out though, because said advances generally lead to a higher standard of living for all, given time. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4248
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written Monday, September 18 2006 05:32
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It also leads to mass consummation of resources and other, even less pleasant things as we have seen. Fastest development is not always the best way. Slower pace will eventually get us to the same point, but because the amount of resources needed is spread over a larger amount of time, there will be less problems. Or, at least, we won't run in to all of the problems at once. -------------------- I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Monday, September 18 2006 06:17
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quote:Not entirely. Spreading happiness around does not mean you can't have a few wealthy elite. It just means that everyone gets a decent share, rather than those at the top hoarding everything for themselves. [ Monday, September 18, 2006 07:11: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Monday, September 18 2006 06:46
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quote:Absolutely. As a scientist my salary and research funding is paid entirely by the Count of Montecristo, who is so bored he posts regularly in message board debates. And when he departs after delivering my quarterly sack of doubloons I regularly hear him remark, as his footmen are levering his immense bulk back into his carriage, that if his peasants don't stop clamoring for a third meal a day he may have to cut my support. [ Monday, September 18, 2006 06:46: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7500
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written Monday, September 18 2006 06:46
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Well, I was once taught that nation aims for good of all. Then there is nation that aims for the good of only one, the leader. I'm not sure if Emperor will think like this... so, we must first make the leader happy, so he isn't all depressed and has motivation to make all our lifes good? Interesting person. And I read the post again and am beginning to actually understand it... but, there is a point when your life simply cannot get better. You have more food that you can eat, all technology that has been made, as nice house as you can get (add your own things here). At this point, it cannot be wrong to start research for better of everything, for if, say, make new kind of television that is better in every way, doesn't it benefit you too, this new technology? Actually, this is what you are saying... thank you, Emperor. Though people tend to get angry when you take all you want FIRST, even before the research that makes everything better. And this will, if nation isn't prepared, result in rebellion and overthrowing of the goverment... but now I remember Stalin (the point where all feared for their lifes and simply couldn't do anything out of the fear that they would be killed, also remember I haven't finished my studies yet, so there probably is something I haven't noticed). You have strange way of talk, Emperor. No wonder some said you can't say what is real and what is game, though yes, you probably can see. People just tend to misunderstand, and this applies for my point in this post too. About science... [ Monday, September 18, 2006 06:53: Message edited by: Crafterlord ] Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00 |