Shapers keeping secrets
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, September 29 2006 16:23
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I don't think the ruler would be overthrown so soon, because he would have access to the geneforge itself. Mmm, the fruits of victory. If the human race actually somehow managed to war itself into extinction rather than eventually unite under a single rule, then those idiots deserve extinction. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 08:06
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quote:If an apprentice shaper can beat Trajkov into a pulp with his bare hands, AFTER Trajkov uses the geneforge, then by your form of government, geneforge or not, rulers would be overthrown at a rather rapid rate. You said yourself: quote:Also, the previous ruler might have, in case he or she was killed, ordered someone to destroy the geneforge. If this was carried out, the new ruler would be even more vulnerable than the old. That said, I think we've almost fought each other to a stalemate. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 09:50
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I said a crappy ruler that used the geneforge would be overthrown, a good rule would not only be ore difficult to defeat, but if he is really good, there will be few who wish to challenge his rulership. When you character uses the geneforge, he is almost invincible, a much more worthy ruler than Trajkov. Also, destroying the geneforge would be going against Tullegolite philosophy. If there was no geneforge to be the ultimate goal, there would be little motivation to become supreme ruler, and the wars would eventually trickle to a halt, unless a new one was built. That said, you can not declare the argument over until you have explained to me how you think things should be run. That way, I can point out how my way is so much better. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 14:20
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quote:Yes, but there are always those few malcontents that will plot against you. And heaven help you if one of those groups contains a shaper apprentice whose training was tragically interrupted. :D On a serious note, it can be quite suprising how much damage a 'non-threat' can actually do. It's not the ones with power that you need to worry about, it's the ones without it. If three geneforge games haven't proven this, I don't know what will. quote:Apparently you didn't try to leave Sucia Island, or go to the ancient shaper graveyard, the name of which still eludes me. quote:Except that humans, when desperate, will do almost anything, no matter who they were to begin with. This holds true for almost any animal on this earth. quote:In other words, your whole system of government would break down. Eventually someone would build a new geneforge and retake position as supreme ruler, but how much is lost in the mean time? I'm not just talking about lives here, either. Your whole civilization would regress. quote:I said that we've almost fought each other to a stalemate. By no means did I declare this argument over. My form of government would probably somewhat resemble a republic. However, it would have three leading rulers, similar to the shaper council, with equal power. In order to pass any sort of bill or order, it has to be at least a two-to-one vote between the leaders. This helps prevent a corrupt leader from taking too much control. You would also have the congress, senate, and so forth. However, the main difference is that leaders, senators, governors, and so forth would have far shorter terms. the presidents wouldn't have 4 years. they would have nine months. Mind you, they can run for re-election a few times, and senators and congress would have even shorter cycles. This limits the amount of damage any politician could do. Lobbying would be a federal offense. If a person, to put it bluntly, attempts to bribe a politician, he or she would face massive fines ($1,000,000, to give you an idea.) and 20 years imprisonment. If the politician accepted, he or she would face the same fine, and would lose the government position, even if he or she is a president. Oh, and don't give me the progress speech. One thing you're forgetting, as you push for progress, is what are the costs? By costs, I mean natural resources, energy, etc. Having a geneforge that can transform someone into a demigod is nice, but if the amount of resources needed to support it exceed the amount you can get, all it'll be useful for is a swimming pool. Therefore, you would waste a massive amount of resources that could have gone to making your people happy and healthy. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 15:02
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Originally by Nioca: quote:Eww... constant campaigning. That seems like it would hurt the effectiveness of the government in getting things done. quote:It also limits the good things any one politician could do. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 15:38
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quote:A little, but that's a small price to pay for stability in the government. Besides, there would be less campaigning because of the short span of power. quote:True. However, it's much easier to break a good political and economic enviroment down then it is to build it up from scratch because the idiot(s) that preceded you destroyed it. Therefore it's more beneficial to limit the potential damage than increase the potential good. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 16:25
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Emperor Tullegolar, In response to your challenge, I submit this form of government. At the top is a king, who shares equal power with the president and prime minister. The king is born into power, and will be king until his eldest son has reached eighteen. The president is voted in by the people of each province. The prime minister is voted in by the house of representatives. Below these three leaders is the house of representatives, which is has one representative for each major business, branch of the military, and province. Next to this is the supreme court, which is completly identical to the US supreme court. -Goldenking -------------------- Constitutional monarchies are the in monarchies. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 16:34
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That sounds like it might work. Of course, it could also lead to a lot of fighting between the three leaders. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 17:43
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Nioca: Yes, my system of government is based on the geneforge, without it, it would fall. I'll admit that. If I wanted to argue about governments suited to a world without the geneforge, I would be posting in the general forum. Your Government: With terms as short as you are suggesting, how is anyone supposed to get any ruling experience? Dikiyoba is right about the constant campaigning, but even worse is the fact that the entire bureaucracy would have to be replaced each time someone new is elected. It would be total chaos, and completely inept people would constantly be gaining positions of power. In my system, a ruler can rule as long as he does a good job. When he stops doing a good job, rather than elect someone new, he is killed off and replaced by someone that is guaranteed to be stronger and better. As for resources, what makes you think that keeping an operational geneforge takes so much energy? In Geneforge 3, it existed on an island devoid of resources and with but a few serviles to maintain it. Not sure where you are going with that point. Emperorking: 1. Why would the king ever try to have a child if he needs to worry about being replaced when he reaches 18? 2. Who chooses the representatives? 3. And finally, by being the same as the U.S. Supreme Court, do you mean have virtually no power at all? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 18:19
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quote:1:Okay, how about until the son is 18, the king is 50, or the king is dead? 2: The people who it concerns. 3: I was being lazy there, dispense justice, make laws, hold power over the police. -------------------- Constitutional monarchies are the in monarchies. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 18:27
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ET you talk as if a mighty ruler is a good ruler, that is often quite false, and even if he is both mighty and good, he will still be overthrown by other power hungry people. I don't think that you really can argue that good rulers wouldn't be constantly killed. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 18:57
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Emperorking: 1. It would have to be until the king is dead, otherwise there will be succession problems. 2. A senate where the military and corporations get as many votes as the public? That sounds like the Estates General in France right before the revolution, a recipe for disaster. 3. Supreme Court dispensing justice? Isn't that the king's job? What is the point of the king at all in your government? It is all very confusing. Retlaw: The only way someone would be able to overthrow a geneforge imbued leader would be if that person has overwhelming support. Lunatics rarely get such support, great leaders get this support. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7500
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written Saturday, September 30 2006 23:16
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But you only need small, fast group and surpise attack... Also, Nioca, your goverment would need constant voting... and you just said my voting system would be ruined without education. Ahem, your system is the same. But, my system has certain groups. There are democratics group, communists group, and so on. Each group gives some persons to vote to senate. My point is, I think giving too much power to ONE or even to too small group is not wise... for if those three make a pact to not vote against each others decisions (which is un-probable but it could happen). Well, the 200-man senate would be too big, but what about... 20-man senate, where one of them is the president? After senate is voted, it votes for president. Every member of senate has one vote, but president has three or four votes. THIS is what I meant. But one senate can't do it ALL. So, should we have one senate for every certain area? And one senate with judging over them all? The big senate would decide on most important matters, like "Shall we build <important building> to that place? Of course, it would require someone to teach people, but humans were once animals who didn't know how to talk. And now I see this kind of discussion. If you talk about progress, it's not only about science... schools are included, like about every other thing that helps us. ET... your philosophy has good points and bad points. Thought if there wasn't one leader who would win that war fast, the was could last very long without geneforge. If geneforge was used only AFTER war, it would be baad. But somebody would steal some, I guess? But, even if you have great support, you ARE mortal. So, geneforge somehow makes people more resistant to swords and arrows? Leaders have been assasinated before. But, let's say some disaster would happen, where the whole nation would be broken apart and nobody knew what to do. Then one person comes and unites and everything is again good. It is this time when kings shine. EDIT: Oh-oh. I just remembered, but kings in feudal age didn't decide EVERYTHING by themselves. They couldn't be bothered with things "to which one does this cow belong?"-things. Might not have anything to do with topic, but it reminds us of something. Humans are not gods. [ Saturday, September 30, 2006 23:21: Message edited by: Crafterlord ] Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, September 17 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 07:07
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quote:Emperor Tullegolar, 1. Very well, until the king is dead. 2. You have a problem with prerevolutionary France? 3. The king, as well as the prime minister and president, would declare war, control the budget, stamp out rebellion, defend the nation, tell people what they are to be teaching in the schools, etc. -Goldenking [ Sunday, October 01, 2006 07:16: Message edited by: Gardenking ] -------------------- Constitutional monarchies are the in monarchies. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 08:08
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quote:I said they could run multiple times. If a ruler is good, he stays. Simple as that. quote:The problem with this theory is that the next ruler could merely be a political figurehead. To clairify, here is an example: Let's say that Tullegolarland is currently ruled over by someone named Owen. He's a benevolent ruler and an excellent warrior. Now, someone else is eyeing the throne, let's name her Carol. She is a terrible warrior and is very selfish. She also is extremely rich and has a massive influence over politics. Now, by your theory, there is no way Carol could become ruler, right? WRONG! She could get power by hiring some sort of assassin team, kill Owen, and claim that she killed him. This would make Carol the ruler, and thus would grant her access to the geneforge. Now, two things could result from this: (A) Carol takes the throne for herself, and rules until she's overthrown by someone else. (B) Carol takes the throne, BUT winds up being a puppet for someone else. Either way, you have a whole new set of problems to deal with. quote:Oops. This one's my fault. I meant to say that if some sort of new superforge was developed, it would probably require a lot of resources to maintain. If you didn't have the ability to maintain it, you basically wasted a bunch of resources that would have been better spent elsewhere. quote:Ummm... I actually think that Tullegolar said that. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 10:01
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Goldenking: It seems the executive branch in your government does just about everything. What is the Senate responsible for? Nioca: This Owen sounds like an idiot. He was killed by a bunch of hired assassins? Pathetic, he deserved death. I like this Carol, she has ambition, which is important. It is very unlikely that someone with enough ambition to kill the ruler would become a puppet. Even if she was a puppet, that's fine too. After all, if the person pulling the strings doesn't want to be in the spotlight, that sounds like a brilliant move, not one made by an incompetent. Rulers: I suppose I always assumed this was implied, but maybe I should clarify a little on this point. Physical strength would not be the sole determining factor in a new ruler rising to power under the Tullegolite philosophy. Obviously, any army can defeat one man, even a man blessed by the geneforge. A ruler would have to have support of the people, and support of his own army. This is where the good leadership skills come in, this is why my rulers would never be incompetent. This is also why they would not constantly be assassinated. They would have guards, you know. It is at the point where they are such bad rulers that they can not even control their own army that they would actually be overthrown. Resources: What could be a better investment of money than a superforge? Voting: It matters not, all your voting systems would be ruined due to lack of education. The world of geneforge is simply not ready for democracy. [ Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:02: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 10:18
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quote:Emperor Tullegolar, The Senate is responsible for the same things. With majority of 55% percent they can overrule two of the higher leaders. With 75% majority they can overrule all three. -Goldenking -------------------- Constitutional monarchies are the in monarchies. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 10:28
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Tell me more about the Representatives. Would there be an even number of citizen, corporation, and military ones? This would be terrible. If the military and corporation could outvote the population, they would constantly by screwing them over. This is exactly what happened in the Estates General, where the nobility and clergy representatives always outvoted the population ones and screw them over... in France. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 11:10
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quote:Emperor Tullegolar, By no means would the corporate or military outweigh the civilians. There would be the representative for the mages, the representative for the navy, and the representative for the army, that would be all the army got. The corporations would get a representative for the three largest businesses. Now considering how large the Shaper Empire is, the civilians would outweigh the military and corporations by quite a bit. -Goldenking -------------------- Constitutional monarchies are the in monarchies. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 11:33
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Legislative: There is no form of mass communication in geneforge. Democracy only work with mass communication or a very small population. How will the people know who they are voting for? How will they know the issues? Most people will be voting out of ignorance, it seems. Really, despotism is the only way to go here. Executive: I assume the Prime Minister fills the role of Head of Government. Who is the Head of State, the King or the President? Most governments in the world today have two chief executives, some have one that fills both roles, but three is simply unheard of. It seems excessive to me. One is all I ever needed. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 12:05
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In many governments the position of 'head of government' is shared somehow. For instance the French PM is a chief executive role but also the French president has some executive powers. Conceivably one could restore the French monarchy for purely ceremonial functions as 'head of state', (admittedly an unlikely example). Similarly, one can envisage a corporation with three heads, i.e. CEO, non-exec chairman and majority-shareholder. I can't think of any particular where this really happens in the world today, however. For a historical example of sharing power three ways: Caesar-Crassus-Pompey. Crassus provided the money, Caesar led the foreign campaigns and Pompey ruled the city. It didn't end well, though... -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 12:23
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The President of France is the Head of State, the Prime Minister is the Head of Government. There would simply be no place for a King if they wanted to bring it back. Your corporation model is unlikely, though interesting. And as for the Triumvirates of Rome, those both ended in disaster. People don't like to share power. It is also inefficient. A single ruler is the way to go. Word of the Day: Envisage. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 12:30
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quote:There obviously is. How do you think everyone instantly knows what you said to a servile in a cave three islands away? :P -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. New Mac BoE Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 12:43
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The French President has more than a ceremonial role. The King could take over the receiving ambassadors side of things, while the President carries on making appointments, signing laws and so on. Of course I accept that this is fantasy as a specific example, but the principle of a three way split -- exec, non-exec and stakeholder -- has some merit. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, October 1 2006 12:47
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quote:You're forgetting that there are more ways to kill than just fighting with swords or batons. It would be easy to slip him some sort of poison without his knowledge. quote:But guards aren't around 24/7, nor are they omniscient. quote:You're missing the point. I specifically refrained from saying money. I meant resources such as crystals, essence, manpower/servilepower, etc. If you don't have enough resources to maintain a superforge, then the effort and resources already put into it were wasted. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |