Shapers keeping secrets
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, September 4 2006 15:56
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Everyone does have access to nuclear technology, you just have to know where to look. Once again, it is the matter of having the means. If you actually have the connections and the cold hard cash to obtain your very own nuclear warhead, then you are probably worthy of being considered a one man nation. The governments that were unable to stop you must now consider you their equal. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, September 5 2006 18:25
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My problem with your argument is that you have absolutly no regard for the consequensess of actions or the long term reprocussions. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 6 2006 11:22
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Incorrect. I am the only one, it seems, that does think about the long term repercussions. While everyone else is concerned with what will happen in the the short term, which includes war, destruction, and chaos, I am the one that truly sees the whole picture, the new advancements, new ways of thinking, and new ways of living. I am surprised you believe the opposite. A more plausible argument for you would have been that Tullegolites not care about the means to the end. This is true, we don’t. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Wednesday, September 6 2006 12:20
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Tullegolite bah. Machiavellian bah. Don't dignify this philosophy with a fancy name. This is pure aggression. 'Winning is all that matters', 'we must have this in case the others get it', 'my nuclear weapon is bigger than yours'. Ever watch Dr Strangelove? -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 6 2006 12:40
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quote:Dr. Strangelove was a brilliant film. Unfortunately, the ways of Machiavelli and myself take the world for what it is, resulting in our unpopularity. Sure, it would be great if everyone would throw down their weapons and seek a higher path, but this is not going to happen. You must be realistic, you must see thing for how they really are and make due with that. The world is evil, people only ever seek to benefit their own situation, and I am merely trying to create a philosophy that takes these facts into account. If you choose a higher path, I will be proud. But don't expect others to be as understanding as I. They will cut you in half the second you lower your weapon. Don't worry, though, I'll name the "Micawber Memorial Geneforge Research Facility" after you when you're gone. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Wednesday, September 6 2006 15:34
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Have you ever read The Prince? I have and I can tell you that while an interesting read, it is way outdated. The basics it outlines barely even fit to our time period anymore. If you were born 400+ years ago, your way might have worked, but in this age it never would. Also, it can't deal with the Geneforge world either since he never really thought of a world where there are hundreds of individuals who, if one went out of control, could wipe out all humans if he/she wanted or was simply absent minded. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 6 2006 17:49
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As usually, I must disagree on all points. Most, if not all of The Prince can apply to today's world. I would like you to name one of his theories that doesn't. My personal favorite is the rule "do not wound the prince." Just imagine if there was an assassination attempt on George Bush that failed. His popularity would increase ten fold. The movie Bob Roberts was about just this. I recommend that movie. The primary rule in The Prince was that it was better to be feared than loved, because love is fickle. True. While the people's love of Bush waned, he won the election because people were afraid to change horses in the middle of the stream. Fear always wins. You must remember, The Prince was not a guide on how to be a beloved ruler. It was a guide on how to gain power and keep it. But perhaps it does not apply to the Geneforge world, after all. If anything, I think Machiavelli would be more harsh when it comes to shaping than he was when it came to medieval rulership. He would be a Barzite, undoubtedly. He would say take all the power you can get as fast as you can. I do not agree with this. But then, I am no Machiavelli. I am Tullegolar. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Thursday, September 7 2006 12:13
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I fail to see how an assassination attempt would make Bush more famous. Sure Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, but he's famous for what he did not being killed. There was a president in the early 1900s who was killed. He helped the economy along a little, but you don't hear historians saying he was famous. On the point of Bush being reelected, I saw it was merely because there was no significantly better choice. Also, your "Tollegolite" philosophy says that that no one should attack the high ruler. Yet also says that powerful people have the right to kill the high ruler. Lastly I believe the Ancient Shapers should have killed all destroyed everything on Sucia Island. Serviles, creations, books, villages, canisters and Geneforge, the whole lot of them should have been destroyed. Of course that would make a boring game wouldn't it. Oh and Tullegolar, I beg you to stop speaking as if this game series is fact. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, September 7 2006 13:32
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I had hoped I wouldn't need to spell things out like this, but if you insist. The rule was, I repeat, "do not wound the prince." Lincoln and McKinley (the early 1900's president as you know him) were not wounded, they were killed. There is a difference. Should a leader be wounded, however, he would be seen as a survivor, a living martyr, a warrior, almost, wounded in the battle that is his leadership. Take Reagan or Pope John Paul II: both had assassination attempts on them, both were amazingly popular. Tullegolite philosophy believes that anyone can overthrow the government. I don't remember ever saying the leaders could not be attacked. Did you make that up for filler, or did you actually think you could confuse me? Finally, why would you destroy the geneforge? It is the pinnacle of shaper technology! It is the next step in evolution! To deny this to the world would be tragic crime, the genocide of the future, if you will. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, September 7 2006 23:12
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quote:Even assuming that others have a right in principle to attempt to overthrow you, why on earth would you want to help them gain the ability to do so? -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, September 8 2006 08:48
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quote:I actually answered this before, but this thread is getting so long I can understand if you missed it. The leaders would make basic shaping available to everyone, but they would keep advanced devices, such as the geneforge, to themselves. This way, the government would not be overthrown every five minutes; this would be total chaos. No, they would really need to be incompetent to be brought down. The geneforge would be the ultimate prize. Though it would make the leaders powerful, they would not be invincible, as the bosses of Geneforge 2 and 3 revealed. The geneforge should be revered, and never taken for granted. But I'm still giving the subjects the ability to overthrow the government? Yes. It makes for a powerful civilization. It is in a world where everyone seeks to make themselves stronger and better themselves that the greatest advances in technology are made. If you do not believe me, just look at the whole of human history. As for the leaders: best that they be kept on their toes as well. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7333
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 04:42
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Tullegolar, while I doubt I'd have worry about hearing you say that to my face, I assure you, I am no coward. There's nothing "cowardly" about thinking about all of the consequences to a particular path in technology; it's a practical, rational application of theory and research. Rushing to use new methods and technology thinking it's a "miracle science" that will revolutionize our lives without adverse effect is the same line of thinking that gave us nuclear waste, global warming, deforestation, carcinogens, and any of the other environmental concerns we face. There is no "miracle technology," even in a fantasy world where magic is real. Every human action has a cost and a benefit and a sincere, intelligent pursuit of technologyacknowledges this and deeply considers the consequences before advancing. There a lot of issues that are unpredictable and that have to be dealt with as they arise, but in terms of the Geneforge, it's well known that it tends to A)drive people crazy or B)fill them with more power than they were meant to handle, and an overwhelming urge to abuse that power. A society where everyone has the power to overthrow the government doesn't lead to prosperity, it leads to anarchy and chaos as different factions try to assert their dominance over the others. I don't know what history YOU'RE referencing, but all the history I know of points to infighting, political instability, and the eventual decline of a civilization resulting from opposing sides "fighting it out" to see who deserves to lead. Also, if calling the Soviet's bluff during the Cuban Missile Crisis was a simple as you claim, why did the Cold War continue well into the 80s, and didn't effectively end until the Soviet economy finally crumbled? The Cold War could have ended with a fizzle once we saw they weren't really ready to launch their warheads at a moment's notice. Yet the tension and paranoia carried on for almost another 30 years, peaking right before the end in the Reagan administration. Any good scientist or engineer will tell you you should always err on the side of caution. Recklessly pursuing a field of study and betting against a catastrophe or playing chicken with someone daring them to abuse it isn't bold or courageous: it's outright stupidity. Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 12:09
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Progress has losers, this is a fact of life. While I'm not sure this is how it has to be, thus is human nature. Sure, millions have died, the forests are disappearing, but I'll bet you wouldn't be willing to give up your computer and local supermarket to stop it. But, do not be ashamed, few would. In the world of Geneforge, it is the same, only to the extremes. Sure, more people will suffer before a new advancement can be made, but it is not logical to assume that, in the future, more will benefit from it? As for overthrowing the government leading to anarchy, this is simply not true. In the year 1992, the government of the United States of America was overthrown, and a new leader was proclaimed. Tullegolite government would be the same way, only you would vote with violence rather than a hanging-chad or whatever. Barbaric? Yes. But I believe it is fitting to the world of Geneforge. As for the Cold War, it did not apply strictly to nuclear weapons, though they tended to take the spotlight. The Cold War was really just two nations constantly trying to upstage one another with new weapons and technology, and it ended. And now there is a clear leader in world politics. The Tullegolite government would be the same: periods of warfare spaced out with periods of peace in between. Similar to the European system from the 18th through 20th centuries, the balance of power That's horribly backwards, you say? True. But again, I find it fitting to the world of Geneforge. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 16:58
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Here are a few thoughts. 1) The shapers have created their own problems by building a secretive society. Secretive societies build paranoia. 2) Because they are paranoid societies, they naturally splinter into different factions, equally as paranoid as the originals. 3) They keep on repeating their same mistakes by copying the previous secretive societies which have been uncovered in their records. 4) This creates continuous new factions and internal warfare. If there were no slaves they would tear their society apart. Ha... As far as the problem with the geneforge. It is very easy to approach the power of the geneforged if done right. However, this requires a lot of training and uses powerful magical items, spell books, etc. In other words you have to become enlightened in studying all the spells, super items, etc. It would be interesting to see a meditative focus that could be learned which would not drive the characters insane. It would be interesting to see a way to develop a series of quests that could make a character almost as strong as the geneforged, that would not be available to the geneforged. If you become geneforged, you get insanity with the power of the enlightened. A very nasty combination. It would be cool if there was a "Book of Awakening", used by a strange sect of awakened that had a series of quests that didn't drive the characters insane and gave some nice bonuses. Very heretical of course. [ Wednesday, September 13, 2006 17:05: Message edited by: I'll Steal Your Toast ] -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 17:12
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Serviles can get magical powers through self-flagellation. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 17:49
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GF1 said that the crazed Taker cultist gained some magic powers by following a regime similar to Shaper agents. By GF2 they were altering serviles in order to bypass the rigorous training that was driving them crazy. It didn't do that much for their sanity. Loss of sanity seems to be a byproduct of gaining power without the training to prepare oneself. Maybe if properly trained one could use a geneforge without losing control. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 19:03
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Finally someone who understands! Thanks you for your most well thought out points, Sir Toast. However, I do not like the direction you and Randomizer are headed towards. You mean I actually have to work in order to get the power and the sanity? Ouch. I would much rather put all resources towards creating a refined Geneforge. But that is much work as well? Yes, but it is work I could force upon other people, and then take all the instant gratification for myself. But that is just my humble Imperial opinion. As far as the game and its plot goes, taking the time to learn to use the geneforge properly would be a worthy addition, since the point of a game is not instant gratification but the hard work involved in reaching such goals. This idea gets a most reluctant Emperor’s Seal of Approval™. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7333
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 10:08
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quote:There's a big difference between actually overthrowing a government and selecting a new democratically elected leader. Even if the presidents, supreme court justices, senators, and other officials of the US hold only temporary and replaceable positions, it's not quite the same thing as hunting down every member of the aristocracy and putting them under a guillotine during the French Revolution. Also, even IF a policy of "might makes right" was acceptable, there's absolutely no safeguard that those with the power to impose their will act in the best interests of all or that it will lead to a society that values advancement. Real world examples such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Saddam Hussein, the conquistadors, and the Spanish Inquisition show this, just to name the ones I can remember off the top of my head. quote:The point you're missing is that the Cold War and nuclear proliferation left a legacy that future generations have no other choice in facing. Many of the dismantled and recalled warheads are missing and now in the hands of terrorists or unstable political states. Even the ones that can be accounted for have half lifes of millions of years, and there's no where to neatly dispose of them so they don't become "someone else's problem" before that time comes. Geneforges are similar: they are hard to produce, dangerous, and require large amounts of unhealthy energy and noxious chemicals to maintain. Also it's impossible to keep the information from falling into "the wrong hands" once an actual policy of researching and developing them becomes accepted. All it takes is a dedicated faction of maladjusted, politically dissident individuals with the enrgy and resources to develop their own Geneforges and use them to their own ends. It's the same thing as Iran, Syria, and North Korea having nuclear weapons, or Saddam Hussein researching biological and chemical weapons. Already bad technology made even worse by being in the hands of very bad people. The idea of allowing Geneforges because they're "cool" or for all the nifty powers they can give is like opening Pandora's box because it looks pretty. Allowing people to have access to such power or even restricting it to those "meritous" to receive it is putting too much faith in the ability of humans to resist abusing that power and is rolling the dice with armegeddon. Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 10:58
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Why is the U.S. the only country that can have nuclear weapons? The way I see it if they have them everybody should. Its none of their business if Korea has nuclear weapons. Is it the worlds business? Yes. But the US getting all pissed because somebody else has certain weapons is stupid. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 11:20
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Unenthusiastic though I am about US foreign policy, I am still many orders of magnitude more comfortable with the US having nuclear weapons than, say, Zimbabwe. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 13:18
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quote:You assume that ET believes there's even such a thing as "the wrong hands". His philosophy of power seems to be that anyone who has the ability to do something has therefore earned the right to do it. I hope he won't be offended if I call this a fascist view, since that's pretty much literally what it is. [ Thursday, September 14, 2006 13:19: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 14:29
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Chairface: You say that might makes right governments don't lead to progress? I'll use your own examples: Hitler, he brought Germany out of an economic recession that was far worse than the American Great Depression. Stalin, he brought all farm land under control of the state, causing many peasants to lose their farming jobs. Those peasants then moves to the cities and, using the resulting urbanization, Stalin started the Industrial Revolution in Russia. Mao did something similar, he transformed China from a medieval state to a world industrial power. Conquistadors, they rid the world of the backwards society of the Incas and Aztecs, bringing new technology and ideas to those forsaken lands. Inquisition and Saddam: well, you can't always get it right. Thuryl: Am I offended at being called a Fascist? No. I am, however, offended by the fact that Hitler and Mussolini are the only examples of Fascist governments and that they are the ones everyone associates with the word. They both had massive shortcomings, and in the end, they were too weak and stupid to maintain control in Europe. Disclaimer: I do not approve of the destruction of the Native American Empires or of the Holocaust. It disappoints me that those that carried out these acts do fit my description for the perfect government, but keep in mind that these governments all failed in the end and were replaced by a superior power. That is the way of the Tullegolite. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 20:01
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ET, for all of your talk of eventuall progress is faulty, progress (or at least non-military progress) cannot come if the world is in constant turmoil and death. You know what usually instates progress? Surpluses: surplus of food, surplus of money, etc. But with your philosophy, there will be non of this. Crops will die from diseases created by random people with no true Shaper training or the soil will loose all nutrients because farmers are creating plants that grow to fast and too much. People will be afraid to form their own oppinions in fear of being killed by an unstable person in the area who is vying for power. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 20:26
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Wrong. It is in times of warfare that progress flourishes the most. If everyone has shaping powers, how can there not be surpluses? Plenty of delicious ornks, lots of lumber, hordes of serviles to work mines, and tons and tons of magical artifacts! But all this magic will eventually destroy the land itself? Maybe, but I am confident that shaper ingenuity will prevail, and it can all be repaired with a little effort. If not, then only the weak will really die off. The strongest and smartest will always find a way to survive. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 21:09
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ET - GF2 has a lot of descriptions of how shaper power fails to promote the improvements that you think will happen. Drypeak is being overrun by a shaper created tree that can grow, but doesn't produce useful products. Sucia Island shaping did produce a green area beyond the secret tunnel, but it is too early to tell how stable the creations will be. There are enough creation failures running around to say that opening up shaping skills will benefit more than harm. As to war producing more than peace, it depends upon the technology that you are talking about. WW II brought us the nuclear bomb, advances in radar, some improvements in medicine to keep soldiers alive, and other things to aid the war effort. In peace there is a different emphasis in how to allocate research resources. Opening up technology to everyone works only when there is a strong system in place to check abuses. That's why there is the worry about Iran getting a nuclear bomb. Having someone in control of a major destructive technology that believes he is doing God's work by using it and that surviving it this world doesn't matter doesn't compare to the Cold War where both sides wanted to survive the use of the bomb. Cannister addiction and using the Geneforge both tend to produce insane individuals that now have a different perspective about the lesser creatures (humans) that are bothering him. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |