Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS)
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Warrior
Member # 7099
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written Saturday, August 5 2006 07:23
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Wow. Ok. Hows about, you 2 girls stop arguing? kay? Holy Crap. This forum is for talking about the games. Im assuming you both like geneforge, and if you dont like it, then you should leave. And dont be offended by another person you dont even know. It implies that you are immature. And having all CAPS, isnt yelling. If you have all caps AND an "!",then that would be an implication of yelling. And you cant compare the creatures and humans with machines. there are major differences. First, machines dont have a soul. Secondly, a machine cant formulate there own morals and behavior. They are based upon the template the creator made for it. much like how God made the templte for our personalities. And, there arent any such things AS self aware robots. They dont EXIST. Its all in your imagination. The're having problems with robots serving DRINKS, much less being aware of themselves. Alright. I think im done now. Bubye. Oh wait. i was playing GF3, and both greta AND alwan left me. Alwan died constantly so i cared not so much, but greta actually did well. Probly cuz i started off as a rebel then turned into a loyalist. Because the head of the rebels are crazy drakons, which i dont like at all, 'cept for the one you trade with on the last island hes cool. Oh, and some shapers are the heads but they are just power hungry. And im just doing what i think is right, and killing the rogues seem right, because they are hurting innocent people. Sure i feel sry for the serviles, but they shouldnt have gone along with the crappy drakons and power hungry x-shapers. Alright, NOW im done. Bubye -------------------- I like everyone...I just like some people more than others! Posts: 60 | Registered: Wednesday, May 3 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7333
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written Saturday, August 5 2006 11:19
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quote:If you can make it, you can break it. That's the idea in a nutshell. quote:IF such a being existed, we wouldn't be obligated to obey it, but then again it wouldn't be obligated not to wipe us out of existence either. I fail to see how a creator is obligated in any way go out of its way to attend every need and want of its creations. Making creations that can enjoy their own thoughts and have a free existence is a waste of time and energy. It's either make serviles or use children to mine and cut lumber until they're old and infirm. What choice would you make? quote:From a neutral perspective, what makes Osama Bin-Laden so much of a threat? He doesn't make or set up the bombs himself. He doesn't personally do all the research to make weaponized anthrax. He doesn't strap a bomb to his chest and detonate it in a crowded shopping area. So why does the whole free world have such a problem with him? The answer is that he incites other people to perform these actions, and worse, for some reason he can actually convince them to do it. The drakons in Geneforge are the same way, more or less. The average drakon is obviously more involved in the whole maiming/killing/terrorizing humans thing, and based on the Loyalist ending (the only one I've seen so far) they didn't make distinctions between outsiders and Shapers when they wiped out Terrestria. Entire cities were burned to the ground, and I doubt they took in refugees or prisoners. Maybe they did. It's impossible to know for sure when all you find is a charred wasteland. But it seems like they're determined to wipe out the Shapers at all costs, and however many gullible serviles and outsiders they have to sacrifice to acheive that in the process, oh well. [ Saturday, August 05, 2006 11:28: Message edited by: Savage Ed Walcott ] Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Saturday, August 5 2006 12:28
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quote:1) Read up on nettiquette, many versions of using CAPS is yelling. We expect our members to follow these rules. 2) Your sexist remarks will not be tolerated. 3) You are not a moderator, we'll worry about the acceptable bounds of discussion. 4) The Geneforge plotline is inherently tied to the morality of the decisions you make and are open for debate, as such the discussion is definitely within fair game. 5) Don't come into this community, a relative newbie, and start preaching and especially telling people to leave the board that you are new to. [ Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:31: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, August 5 2006 16:06
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quote:I am intrigued by your support for, among other things, infanticide. Thuryl: Yes. Yes, I did. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, August 5 2006 16:19
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quote:Please look up the word "hypothetical" in a dictionary and don't come back until you know what it means. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Saturday, August 5 2006 22:35
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Mica: quote:That's akin to say that the Allies sought out violence during WWII by infiltrating German territory. The desire to forcibly overthrow a regime which will not allow you to even exist isn't exactly an unethical ideal. quote:The academy of Greenwood contained several Shaper Masters who were enemies of all free creations. The academy was a place where young individuals were indoctrinated and brainwashed into becoming true, bigoted Shapers. Enemies of the Rebellion. Greenwood academy was a legitimate target. quote:1. Terrestria is under the control of the Shaper regime. The Shaper regime has demonstrated many times in the past how it feels about powerful, independent creations. They did so on Sucia, and they did so in the Drypeak colony. 2. You also forget that the Drakons aren't fighting for themselves. They are also fighting to free all independent Creations. quote:You made it sound as though Drakons are mindless killing machines. This could not be further from the truth. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Saturday, August 5 2006 23:34
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Waylander, let's not make this an argument about words (clearly 'rampage' has a lot of connotations). Surely we can agree on this: 1. the shapers are antagonistic towards the drakons, and other free creations, 2. rather than merely hiding away, the drakons have developed war-making capacity in order to challenge the shapers, 3. there is some justice in the drakon cause, i.e. resistance to the shaper council which believes they do not have a right to exist. However, their methods involve indiscriminate killing and destruction, in my view this cannot be justified. Unfortunately, the diplomatic course proposed by the awakened was not pursued and instead the taker viewpoint (kill them before they kill us) prevailed. The drakons have gone beyond resistance and started down a very dark path. A shiver runs down my spine when I hear the argument that the school should be destroyed, because it is turning out young enemies of the creations. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 00:47
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quote:The frustrating thing about your discussion, Savage Ed, is that this is really all you seem to be saying, over and over and at length. To any suggestion that there might be other overriding factors, you simply say, 'No' and repeat your basic assumption, which everyone else finds self-evidently abominable. Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but there is supposed to be a difference between repeating an opinion and arguing. quote:Nobody said anything about catering to wants. Most people acknowledge a responsibility to provide for needs. The important point is that the creator is not entitled to treat the creation as a slave. Care to address this one? quote:No doubt. So the Shapers were stupid to do it. But how stupid it was to make sentient creations has no bearing on the right of the sentient creations to a free existence. Why do you keep raising this issue as though it did? Do you have some unstated premise that wasting time and energy must entitle one to compensation in the form of slave labor? quote:Nonsense. Pretending that the only alternative is heavy labor by children and the elderly is pretty shabby argument. Pay healthy adults a fair wage for mining and cutting wood. The Shaper culture, like ours, can well afford it. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 00:57
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Mica: quote:Agreed. quote:The primary targets of the Drakons are the Shapers, and outsiders who are loyal to the Shaper cause. I have no doubt that there is collateral damage. The Drakons are forced to unleash awesome power in order to have any chance of survival against a regime which has an iron grip on two continents. It's unfortunate that civilians must die, but sometimes such deaths are justified for the greater good. Numerous civilians died during the liberation of mainland Europe from the Nazis. Horrific acts were committed during the French revolution. The American revolutionary butchered many individuals with loyalist sympathies. And yet we don't really condemn such actions. We see these acts as 'necessary evils'. Quite simply, it is easy to label someone an extremist. However, very few revolutions could have been successul without 'extreme' acts. The Drakons and their followers are fighting for survival, and liberation. If they take the moral high road, then they will be destroyed. And let's be honest, what good is it to have 'the moral high ground'? The creations have had the moral high ground for centuries, and they still remain slaves. The creations had the moral high-ground on Sucia, and they were destroyed. The Awakened has the moral high ground in GF2, and they were destroyed. quote:Sometimes diplomacy is a lost cause. Would you have 'pursued' diplomacy with the Nazi regime? How many concessions would have you made before you woke up in the middle of the night to realize that all of your kinsmen had been destroyed, and a gun was being pointed in your face? As Magneto once said: "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" The current Shaper regime will never accept even the existence of an independent creation, let alone a country of creations with some measure of power. So the Shaper regime must be destroyed. It must be scattered to the winds. Or at least, if the rebellion wants to negotiate a fair deal, they need leverage. After all, why would the Shaper regime make concessions, if it isn't necessary? quote:Sometimes, the motives of the Drakons are a little ambiguous, and we must wonder about whether they love power more than they love freedom. However, their justifications for why the Shaper regime must be fought in such a manner make sense, even if the Drakons aren't entirely sincere about their motives. It is debatable as to whether Lilita truly cared about creation liberation once her 'transformation' was complete, yet her arguments still remained valid. quote:So it is not right to target an institution which not only has fully fledged Shapers, but also Shapers in training? We will have to agree to disagree. IMHO, the Greenwood Academy was a legitimate target. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 02:12
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Waylander, we seem to see the Geneforge 3 situation in different ways. Loosely speaking, you see things in terms of WWII, and have identified the shapers as the nazis and the drakon rebellion as the western allies. Equally loosely, I tend to see things more in terms of the Irish troubles, with the shapers as the British government and the drakon rebellion as the armed republican movement. In your eyes the drakons are a liberating army, in my eyes they are terrorists. I have tried to take account of your viewpoint below, but please also consider how things look from the other viewpoint. The problem with the taker viewpoint is that it pre-supposes that a peaceful solution cannot be found. quote:While I accept your point about collateral damage (see below) I'm not too sure about your examples. That is the first time I have seen the French revolutionary terror justified! There is a difference between inadvertant harm to civilians (as in Kosovo) and deliberate targeting of them. The carpet-bombing of Dresden, nuking Hiroshima, and in general 'rounding up' and execution of dissenters - these have often been condemned. That doesn't mean the cause wasn't just, but you can't go around killing others because they don't agree with you. It is possible to take prisoners, you know. quote:If you act without concern for morality you become a monster. To act reasonably you need to target the aggressive elements within your enemy, not just indiscriminately kill everything that moves. How successful your targeting is of course depends on other factors, such as intelligence, precision of weaponry etc. In WWII both weaponry and intelligence were very limited, and consequently there were a lot of civilian deaths resulting from justifiable action against military targets. I accept these deaths were unavoidable. But this is in a different league from deliberately taking action which targets civilians. quote:I can certainly agree to disagree there. [ Sunday, August 06, 2006 02:15: Message edited by: Micawber ] -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 02:48
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Mica: quote:I think I see the entire Geneforge series very differently from you. quote:Yes, I feel that the Nazi vs. Allies example is a rather fitting analogy. The Shaper regime believes that they are superior due to their magical abilities and status as Shapers, and hence have a right to dominate the 'inferior races'. Sometimes, this right includes genocide. Just look at what happened to the Drayks. The Drakons aren't morally pure, but then neither were the Allies. The Allies often targeted heavily populated German cities (eg. Dresden) in their bombing campaigns, in order to lower morale and encourage an uprising. quote:Is this an accurate comparison? I don't think so: - British control over Ireland in the 1900's wasn't absolute. - The British didn't kill Irishmen merely for being Irish. They at least allowed them to exist. The Shaper regime won't even grant the Drakons the right to exist, as we observed in GF2. quote:1. You forget that the Drakons aren't the only ones fighting. Serviles, drayks, other independent creations, outsiders who are sick of Shaper oppression, and even a rogue Shaper or two, are all fighting in this liberating army. 2. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. quote:Oh yes, there is a peaceful solution. Lay down and die if you're too powerful. Become a slave to the Shapers if you're not. I don't mean this as an insult, but have you played the Geneforge series? Since when have the Shapers shown ANY ability to negotiate and treat anyone who is not a Shaper with fairness and dignity? In all three games in the series, the Shaper regime has reacted with extreme and unconditional violence to any creation which demonstrated independent thought. The Awakened tried the peaceful approach, twice. They tried it on Sucia, and they tried it on Drypeak. They were destroyed. The question here is: Do Awakened sympathizers now have the courage to try to path of the Takers? quote:Do you agree that the French revolution had remarkable outcomes, even if 'terrorism' was employed? quote:There is very little difference. In both cases, you know that your actions will harm civilians. Yet in both cases, you proceed with an action in which you know civilians will suffer. In both cases, you kill civilians for the 'greater good'. quote:And yet many feel that such actions were justified. Since there is such controversy in the area, your assertions remain opinion. quote:But the Shapers don't just 'disagree' with the rebels. They want their total annihilation. quote:Why show mercy to any enemy who wishes your destruction? quote:One can act commit small evils in order to satisfy the greater good. Collateral damage is merely one example. quote:Isn't that what the Rebellion is doing? quote:They were? Can you provide any evidence whatsoever to support your conjecture? We will never truly know whether the civilian deaths during WWII were 'unavoidable'. What we do know is that the Allies weighed up all of their options, and decided that a small evil was necessary to liberate Nazi and Japanese occupied lands. It is easy in hindsight to condemn such actions. 'Could've, should've, would've'. The fact remains that at the time, the Allies were confronted with two highly aggressive nations who had very little appreciation for human life, and who wanted to crush all opposition. So they fought back, and civilians suffered. It's sad, at the time, it was reasonable to believe that such actions were necessary. What we must try to determine is whether the force the Rebellion uses is proportional to the threat. And given that the Shaper Council has almost unlimited power, and absolutely no sympathy for an alliance of independent Creations, I'd say that anything goes. The Shapers are the occupiers. They are the oppressors. They have military superiority. At any time, they could deal fairly and justly with their Creations. Yet they choose not to. They cannot, and will not. War is the only answer. War is inevitable. And it is only reasonable that the Rebels should attempt to strike first. quote:1. Not really, as I explained above. 2. I've never seen the Rebellion 'target' civilians. [ Sunday, August 06, 2006 02:53: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 02:55
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Rather than trying to demolish my viewpoint, why not do what I asked, try to imagine what things look like when you look from a different angle? -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 03:01
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Can you demonstrate that there is even the slightest chance that the Shaper regime will grant freedom, equality, and the right to life, to all independent Creations? If not, then how can you condemn the rebels for attempting to take their freedom? -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 03:26
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I think it's apparent that there are elements in Shaper society who support the rights of individual creations and are uneasy about Shaper policy, but are more uneasy about joining a group of violent, angry rebels who will destroy their entire way of life. I think that there are four main groups of people on Terrestria: 1) Shaper traditionalists. "We made the creations. They are ours to control, and our lifestyle is the best." It should be noted, however, that Shapers outlawed the creation of Drayks and Drakons - creations thought to be the most intelligent. 2) Those who live in Shaper society and are sympathetic to the rebel causes but not their methods. They are not willing to give everything up in a suicide mission but are not in favor of slavery of serviles and drayks. They don't know what to do, don't have much power, but recognize the intelligence of the creations but are helpless. 3) The rebels who are uncomfortable with rebel methods. They realize that something needs to be done, but not at the expense of their continent. They are wary of becoming as bad as the Shapers. They don't want killing - they want equality. However, they are afraid to speak out within the rebellion. 4) Die-hard rebels. They will do whatever it takes to overthrow the Shapers, and in doing so become just as bad. In this group are pretty much all of the Drakons, a lot of drayks, some serviles, and rebellious shapers like Litalia. They are willing to go as far as create an army of Shapers with different names to combat the Shapers. Personally, my views fall around the 2/3 point, closer to the 3. However, as GF3 really only had points 1 and 4, it was easier to justify pov 1, at least for me. However, I'm confident that GF4 will offer a difficult 2/3 road, which seems exciting. It seems like a good BoE scenario that has "finishing, winning, and Hall of Fame" conditions. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 03:44
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Khyryk sympathised with the rebels' cause, but would not condone their methods. Raeche (GF2) learned to respect serviles. Litalia clearly held similar views, but was unwise in the way she expressed them. Not all shapers are completely lacking in conscience. Prior to the rebellion, most shapers weren't even aware of the problem of independent creations. How can you judge all shapers on the basis of the actions of a handful, including the vast majority who are ignorant of the facts. Remember when you first arrived on Sucia Island, you were astonished to discover that the serviles possessed enough ability to survive on their own and the intelligence to establish their own civilisation. This is news to most shapers. There's no denying the rebels need to be able to defend themselves. However there was a chance that sympathetic shapers could win over the shaper council and agree a peaceful solution. Following the war that chance is now gone. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 05:41
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Mica: quote:Khyryk may have felt a little sorry for the rebels, but he was still a Shaper at heart. He could have chosen to remain neutral in the conflict, but instead participated in the release a psychotic Shaper. Despite knowing that Agnatha was borderline fruitloop, and what a terrible vengeance she would take on a town populated by free creations, he aided in the massacre. He is a Shaper at heart. quote:True. And what did she do? She ran away from Shaper society. She knows that anyone who wants to grant concessions to creations cannot exist in Shaper society. quote:How else could should have expressed them? Could she have petitioned the Shaper Council, expressing her disatisification about their policy of genocide and oppression? Lilita had seen first hand what happened to those who questioned the absolute rule of the Shapers. She participated in it, remember? That's why she ran off to Ghadring. quote:And yet any Shaper with a conscience and a desire for Creation liberation has fled Shaper society and joined the Rebellion. Tell me this. How many Shapers are active in the Shaper Community, attempting to press for greater rights for outsiders and Creations? If the answer is "None", tell me why not. quote:Partially false. Shapers are quite aware that independent and rogue creations/outsiders/Shapers are a possibility, which is why they have agents, discipline wands. True, they aren't aware that there is an organized resistance of creations. However, judging by how they deal with individual rogue creations, and how they genocided the drayks, it doesn't take the deductive powers of Sherlock Holmes to predict how they will respond to an organized resistance of independent creations who are using 'forbidden, Shaper-only' magic to defend themselves. quote:You're ripping the situation out of context. This isn't about the actions of just 'a few Shapers'. It's about an attitude of superiority and elitism held by the Shaper society in general. It's about the fact that independent thought in creations and outsiders is routinely and systematically crushed by a cult who has an iron grip over two continents. It's about the fact that time and time again, whenever a creation or outside attempts to escape Shaper domination, they disappear in the night. There might be a few of the Shaper order who feel that such an attitude is not quite right, but they are too scared to say anything. They can't bring their objections before the majority, because they know that will be stripped of their rank, and most likely killed. quote:1. You hadn't even started your apprenticeship at the time. 2. Your character was aware that Serviles could 'act out', and hence required discipline (hence the punishment cells). In otherwords, independent thought IS observed in creations (and outsiders) in Shaper society. And it is crushed. 3. Ironically, you've forgotten the ending of GF1. When your PC alerts the Shapers to what has occurred on Sucia, the Shapers travel there are decimate the Awakened. The Awakened attempted to reason with the Shapers, and were destroyed for their trouble. quote:This isn't just about 'defense'! It's also about liberation, and striking first. When will you realize that the Shaper regime will NEVER allow the existence of independent creations? It's not in their nature. It's contradictory to all of their beliefs regarding complete dominance and mastery over their creations and the 'inferior' outsiders. The rebels are perfectly justified in striking first. Not only are hundreds of thousands of creations and outsiders under the oppressive regime of the Shapers, the fact is that as soon as the Shapers learn of a group of independent creations, they WILL attempt to destroy them. This has been demonstrated twice in the past. In Geneforge 1, the Shapers destroyed the Awakened on Sucia. In Geneforge 2, the Shapers razed Medab to the ground. I distinctly remember that the Awakened's request for equal treatment was laughed at by the Shapers, before any dissenters were destroyed. If you know that an individual is determined to murder you, do you wait for him to point the gun at you and pull the trigger before you defend yourself? Such reasoning is absurd. Again, I quote Magneto from the X-Men animated series, since he sums the issue up quite well: "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" quote:If this is true, why didn't Raeche return to Shaper society and attempt to negotiate with the Shaper Council, instead of joining the Awakened? Why didn't Khyrk speak out long before the Rebel uprising about his desire for fairer treatment towards creations? Why doesn't the Shaper in Dhonal's Keep express his doubts about the morality of creation testing? In fact, all three of these Shapers only voice their views once the Rebellion has begun, and all individuals are forced to have an opinion. Your belief that these Shapers could have reasoned with the Shaper Council is a foolish dream. The very reason that they did not speak out is because they knew that they would be persecuted, and most likely killed. quote:The Awakened tried to reason with the Shapers, twice. They were destroyed for their efforts. "They used reason, while others used tanks. And they were destroyed for their trouble." Quite frankly, if the rebellion is willing (and stupid enough) to attempt the twice failed methods of the Awakened, I suggest that when they go before the Shaper Council with a list of their demands, they also take a bottle of lubricant with them. They'll be needing it. [ Sunday, August 06, 2006 06:04: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7099
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 11:02
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quote:Uuummm. Im not really new to this board. Relative or otherwise. Lol. Even though you are number six and im number like 10,000. I'm not in any way new. to this forum or game. And I wasnt being sexist. I was assumin you were female. I'm slightly sorrowful to you if you arent. i wasnt trying to be mean to a large majority of people. Im rather fond of females. And i wasnt telling anyone to leave, twas merely a suggestion that if you dont like the games, then why talk about it? Lol. And I also was just debating about the moralities of the game. I like debating. Im decent at it. Not great, but i dont suck either. Now, me replying to your reply, is just defensive, because it seems i offended you in some minor way. Wow, you need some tougher skin. Lol, I'm light hearted, so please dont feel the need of being offended at every other remark. And dont think i dont like you either. I like everybody, just some more than others, lol. Ok, im done now. Bubye. Or not. quote:This is, by the way, analogous to another question: if there is a god like the Christian God, and if He did create us, are we by the very act of creation therefore obligated to serve Him, or must there be some other justification in addition? Ultimately, the answer to that question, I feel, is that there would have to be an additional reason, namely that God's commands are inherently good, since gratitude for creation (or whatever) is not by itself sufficient to make us slaves. IF such a being existed, we wouldn't be obligated to obey it, but then again it wouldn't be obligated not to wipe us out of existence either. I fail to see how a creator is obligated in any way go out of its way to attend every need and want of its creations. Making creations that can enjoy their own thoughts and have a free existence is a waste of time and energy. It's either make serviles or use children to mine and cut lumber until they're old and infirm. What choice would you make? now on to you two. I myself am a Christian. The reason God created Adam was to look after the animals. As such, would BE an act of service. (NO, im not yelling, its just easier to use caps then to use italics). However, he was givin free will, and im sure you guys know the whole story, if not, Read Genesis, its a good book to start off with. Also, Godis a being of Love and understanding. He doesnt punish to be mean. And rewards good effort.And the reason God made everything, is because he was lonely. o to speak, and probly bored. Anyhew...If i made creations, i wouldnt feel obligated to give them their needs, I'd WANT to. Why wouldnt i? Suffering isnt a pretty thing in the least. And the only reason having its own thoughts might be dangerous to ME, is if i were mean to it, and if i appeared lazy. Which i wouldnt be. quote:Originally written by Lowbacca: And, there arent any such things AS self aware robots. They dont EXIST. Its all in your imagination. The're having problems with robots serving DRINKS, much less being aware of themselves. Please look up the word "hypothetical" in a dictionary and don't come back until you know what it means. Hypothetical-Theoretical, suppositional, conditional, contingent. Happy? I was just trying to point out that its too hard to compare the two, for the simple case that one never has or will exist. I think, i typed a few days ago, or yesterday i cant remember, anyways, i cant be sure why i pointed it out but anyway. IM DONE! BYE! [ Sunday, August 06, 2006 11:21: Message edited by: Lowbacca ] -------------------- I like everyone...I just like some people more than others! Posts: 60 | Registered: Wednesday, May 3 2006 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 11:50
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quote:Personally I don't care one way or another. Your response partially violated the Code of Conduct, not seriously, but enough. I just want it to be clear that posts like that (especially telling members to leave) will not be tolerated, period. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7099
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 12:23
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quote:Lol,i didnt tell anyone to leave. I said they should if they didnt like it. I was slightly annoyed because whoever was debating, they were passing the line between debate and arguing. And both were being extreme in there reactions to each other. And they were doing so in a way that reminded me of my sisters, im not being mean, or trying to be sexist, it literally did. Oh well, i guess this is where liberals become conservative in sort of "politically correct" doggy doo im tired of hearing about. Anyways, i guess you are correct that i did cross the line in wanting others to leave, no matter the excuse. Alright, no matter, have a nice day! -------------------- I like everyone...I just like some people more than others! Posts: 60 | Registered: Wednesday, May 3 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 15:27
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No side has any moral backing. They have excuses yes but esstincaly both sides have done their share in unaccidental killings of innocents. Both are fighting for the survial and superimacy and will stop at nothing to have it. So I choose my favorite based on who will be most likely to provid stablity. During geneforge 3 rebel ending you see hints of servils and drakons not geting along. Drayks may be envyious of drakon power. Gazers have their own cult/cast. Will drakons be will to hand over their athourity. If the rebels do win I find it very likely that they will fracture. Their goals and rules are design from and for overthrowing stabilty not stablity it self. Shapers has been developing their laws for centuries even possibly millenia for stabilty. Also ingame shows that creations (esspically expermental creations) and modify humans have unstable tendencies. I choose shapers becuase if I show them loyalty all I have to worry about is the enemy and not as much with internal politics. In geneforge 2 you have kill a errant rebel leader who goes power hungry. If the shapers win you will get a life closely controled by the shaper council. Join the rebels get a knife in your back. The only group that had a moral reason was the awakaned and apparently your enemies don't care if your right or not. Personaly I'm not going to create something that will come back to haunt me or if I can't sell it or it serves me in some way. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Sunday, August 6 2006 18:43
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Shapers got rid of the Dryaks, thus removing a potential enemy of the Vlish. Things are going as planned, and we will be in control soon. **Gurgles evily** No one would ever suspect a Vlish rebellion. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Loyal Underling
Member # 13
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written Monday, August 7 2006 05:54
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I wouldn't be surprised if there were a split between Drakon and human rebellions - they're after different things. I have a hard time distinguishing Drakons from hardline Shapers. -------------------- [i]Great Potato[/i] "Unless by the force of eloquence they mean the force of truth; for if such is their meaning, I admit that I am eloquent." -- Socrates Posts: 126 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7333
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written Monday, August 7 2006 10:25
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quote:I haven't seen any convincing overriding factors, only analogies to infants and human slaves (which I don't accept) and appeals to emotion (which isn't a logical justification). It doesn't matter if everyone finds my "basic" assumption "self evidently abominable." Other than twisting my perspective to argument that to mean I condone the killing infants or the enslaving of humans by other human beings, I haven't seen one rebuttal that didn't jump to presonal assumptions against me or my position. You don't agree with me, fine. I really don't care if you do. All I'm asking at this point is give a logical and well thought explanation why you think man made creations, especially those made to ease overall human suffering or those that are inherently dangerous should be free from their creators. quote:Apparently if I did, I'd just be "repeating my basic assumption, at length." I'll leave it up to reread my previous posts for my stance on that. If you wanted, you could give a convincing argument why a creator doesn't have the right to treat their creation like a slave. quote:No, but I have a clearly stated premise that the endeavors of human science are meant to improve the lives of human beings. If that includes creating "slave labor" to augment the workforce in dangerous and unsavory occupations, so be it. Unless you want to put into words your obvious fundamental objection. quote:I really don't think so. Based on the apparent world economy in Geneforge, children could be seen as a viable source of labor probably as young as 10, which would be consistent with many agrarian and developing societies throughout history. It was even commonplace in the United States up until around the 1920s. I think the main reason serviles exist is because there's a shortage of man power, and using them allows for greater productivity. Also, I see no indication from a basic analysis of humans in the game to believe that the average outsider, other than the odd mage or blacksmith here or there qualifies for what could be financially well off in the world of Geneforge. Most of them are similar to medieval peasant workers in our world; uneducated, dirty, poor, tired, and hungry. The idea of what a "fair wage" is in Geneforge is more than likely just enough to get by from one day to the next, living from hand to mouth. I doubt they have any kind of labor union demanding a "fair wage" on their behalf. Other than being used as "slave labor," and being destroyed when they get too much independent thought, I don't see much that seperates how human workers are treated in Geneforge and how the serviles are treated. Drakons are inherently dangerous, and nobody seems to genuinely care about the poor ghlaaks and battle alphas for some reason. I'm not saying the Shapers aren't an oppressive, overbearing, tyrannical magocracy. They learned how to make their own living beings to do their bidding and almost instantly let it go to their head and started lording their power over other human beings. They've placed themselves above the law as far as so called outsiders go and don't hold themselves accountable to them beyond the Shaper laws they barely even acknowlege. If anything that's my main beef against Shaper rule and policies. The treatment of creations made to perform some task for the overall benefit of society isn't really one of my concerns as long as it isn't excessively cruel or inhumane. You obviously disagree with that last point, so if you like, feel free to articulate that fundamental underlying opposition in words. If it's convincing enough, you might even change my opinion back to feeling sorry for the serviles. Otherwise, I agree, this is getting frustrating, and also very boring. Posts: 49 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, August 7 2006 12:12
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quote:The point of the analogies to human beings is that your principle — if you can make it, you can break it — seems to apply equally well to both humans and to GF-style creations. You have yet to make a reasonable distinction that shows why your point of view does condone killing GF creations but doesn't condone killing people. EDIT: By the way, this is a standard counter-argument strategy. I'm simply showing that your basic premise leads necessarily to an unacceptable conclusion, which proves (by contradiction) that there's something wrong with the premise in the first place. [ Monday, August 07, 2006 13:31: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Monday, August 7 2006 13:23
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Waylander: You see the Shapers as the Nazi's of WWII and the Drakons as the Allies... I could not more strongly disagree. The Nazi's rose to such power because the Allies let them (look in a history book, WWII was not that hard to prevent). I see the Drakons as the Japanese in WWII. The Japanese saw what had happened to China when Western Imperialism came and was like, "Holy @#$@! We see how it is... You must either conquer or be conquered!" The Drakons are even worse than this. I'm not going to say that the Shapers are America, but they are deffinatly closer to being America than the Drakons are to being the Allies. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |