Profile for Bojan


Recent posts

Pages

AuthorRecent posts
The Ancient Greeks in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #38
Ok, thank you then. I wasn't entirely sure which it was, although my guess was that it wasn't sarcasm, and wanted to make sure.

quote:
The accounts of Leonidas's body being mutilated are plausible, but not completely solid, because atrocity stories in wartime are often exaggerated as propaganda. Since we have no memoirs from Xerxes, though, we have no idea why such a mutilation may have occurred. It could have been out of disgust at how easy it had been to mow down the legendary Spartans with archery. We are told that Leonidas had been awfully rude to Xerxes. Maybe Xerxes was just being a xerk.
Xerxes was known for fits of rage. He was supposed to have suffered one when he had the boby mutilated. This was not the only one recorded, and makes the mutilation more likely. Also, the Persians usually treated the dead with respect, and did not defile their corpses.

The Spartans were not killed by arrows. They were killed by the sheer amount of Persians. Most died fighting with their teeth and nails.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Oldbiehood in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #67
Are you Sarasaphilia Worf?
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
The Ancient Greeks in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #36
quote:
I have to give Kyrek credit for holding off up to 2 million opponents in this argument.
I have been puzzling over this for awhile and still can't figure out if this is sarcasm or not. The lack of a voice over the internet really destroys sarcasm and its ilk.

Up to 2 000 000 means that this is not a completely certain, but guesses range from 200 000 to 2 000 000.

quote:
For all we know -- in fact, this would be the best guess -- most of the three-days' battle consisted of standing around waiting for something to happen.
Some of it may have been standing around, but a lot of it must have been fighting since the Persian king defiled the Spartan commader's body because of the number of troops lost.

quote:
They may have measured with a systemic error that threw them off by 5 knots.
5 knots is highly unlikely. That would be 2 or 3 knots slower than us, which is unlikely for master sailors.

quote:
Different bodies are even more questionable. Where did those bodies go? They either came from nutrition and labor, which we have today, or from genetics, which didn't disappear in a few thousand years. I haven't heard anything about Greek skeletons that suggest great physiological differences, either.
These bodies mixed in with Roman and Macedonian bodies after the Ancient Greeks were conquered. As time passed, the genetic differnce disappeared. Also, it's not the skeletons that were different, it's the muscle.

quote:
Alorael, who also has it on good authority that early Danes were capable of literally tearing monsters apart and slaying dragons. That is not good evidence of amazingly powerful Danes or, for that matter, Danish dragons.
I'm not saying that Heracles killed the Nemean Lion, and that Bellepharon killed the Hydra. I'm saying that the people were actually stronger tha us, and because of their great strength they made their heros even stronger than them.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Geneforge 3 - 7.47 (9.5/2.0) in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #9
7.9

I liked it, but it wasn't as good as G2 or G1, or G4 for that matter.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Geneforge 1 - 8.92 (10.0/5.0) in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #12
8.7

I really liked it, and its demo hooked me on the series, so......

[ Friday, February 16, 2007 13:05: Message edited by: Kyrek ]
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Avernum 2 - 8.54 (9.7/5.5) in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #21
7.5

I couldn't really play the game because I found the engine too annoying.

[ Friday, February 16, 2007 09:55: Message edited by: Kyrek ]
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Blades of Avernum - 8.66 (10.0/7.0) in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #15
7.3

I didn't like the game very much, or the atmosphere.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Avernum 4 - 7.63 (10.0/1.0) in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #2
7.2
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
The Ancient Greeks in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #33
quote:
None of which means that every single person in ancient Greece was a rower. At best, the experiment might show that those ancient Greeks who rowed triremes were really strong, but it doesn't say anything about any ancient Greek who didn't row a trireme.
Rowing a ship for a living may make you slightly stronger than the average Joe, but considering all the labor the average Joes did, it wouldn't give you too much of a muscle boost.

quote:
And isn't it equally possible that there was an agreed-upon speed that meant "heroic, manly, and martial rowing" to the historians.
This could be, but I don't think that all ships would row heroically. Only the "favored" ships would be recorded with the heroic speed.

quote:
Alorael, who finds it moderately upsetting that you had no ancient civilizations classes in your middle school. If anything says rampaging hordes of barbarians versus a small civilized world, it's middle school.
Yes, it was very annoying. I've liked history since before middle-school, and the farthest in the past I went was to the Viking era.

quote:
That's quite a number of leaps of logic being made in just one paragraph.
Logic being the key word. Logical explanation is used a lot with history. It must be since we weren't there.

quote:
If Renaissance artists all depicted God with a long white beard, does that mean everyone living during the Renaissance had a long white beard?
No it doesn't.

The Ancient Greek legends are all tales of battle, strength and heroic act. Their gods are all deadly warriors, with great courage and strength. This points towards either vanity towards strong, brave warriors, or them actually being close to that. It could be either, or it could be something else.

The Battle of Thermopalye also points towards great strength and stamina. Roughly 6000 Greeks held off up to 2 000 000 Persians for three days. They had to have great stamina to keep fighting for that long. The Persians didn't need great stamina becase most of the that actually fought the Greeks died.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
The Ancient Greeks in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #29
quote:
Unfortunately, that's life. If a premise is doubtful, it does not make sense to pretend it's rock solid just in order to have a discussion that presumes it. If the closest thing we have to a fact is still a long way off it, acknowledge that, and discuss the evidence and its weakness.
The Ancient Greek records are fairly consistent in their speeds, which points towards fairly accurate data. That means that it is very likely that the Greeks did actually row faster than us, and in turn shows that the Greeks were likely stronger than us. Their strength likely didn't all come from labor, but most likely it came from a slightly different body than us, allowing for more muscle.

Another peice of evidence is the gods they worshipped. They were all incredibly muscular. This may have been from vanity, or it may have been from the way their bodies were. The same goes for their legends. The people in them are all incredibly strong. Once agan it could be from vanity or from their bodies.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Any Vista Users Who Got a CD? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #4
This is a great example of one of the things I love about these games. If you are having trouble Jeff will help you and try to fix the problem.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
The Ancient Greeks in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #24
quote:
How can we be discussing all Ancient Greeks when the experiment you describe is relevant only to the ones who rowed triremes?

Rowing is one of the most intense sports there is; even athletes have difficulty with it without a lot of training and excellent upper-body strength. I'd be more impressed if these "muscular people" had already been trained rowers before the experiment began.
Most Ancient Greek city-states had a small navy atleast. Some had larger, better navies, while some had smaller navies, but considering where they lived the almost all had a navy.

I just checked, and they were experienced rowers that rowed thr trireme.

quote:
I have to ask; Are we talking Spartans, Athenians, or Greeks in general? I could totally see the Spartans being that strong since they were an oligaichic society built on war, but it's hard to see the Athenians having that increased strength.
Also, expanding on Kelandon's point, while the Spartans did beat the Athenians at war, the Athenians had a stronger navy. That is partially why we are including them in this discussion, along with the fact that we are including all Ancient Greeks.

quote:
With all due respect to history as a discipline, every discipline has its weak points. I'm pretty sure this is one of them. No doubt the figures we have are the current best guesses of historians, but that doesn't make them good guesses. From the kind of evidence I'm guessing these guys must have used, I'd say their best guess ought to be reliable within a factor of 2, but not much better. In which case there is no point in us pouring much thought into the question of why ancient Greeks were so much stronger than us, because most likely they were nothing of the kind. Very likely they had a lot more practice in building and rowing triremes, but that's no shock.
History is the closest thing we have to a reliable source from the past. There is always the argument that history may be wrong, but with it being the closest thing we have to fact, that basically destroys the discussion.

Also, the recordings of trireme speeds are all roughly the same. That means that unlike the Romans they recorded unexaggerated fact.

quote:
Again, no. Athenians fought as many wars as the Spartans did, and they beat the Spartans in war sometimes. This distinction is something that middle-school history books make, but it doesn't hold up in real research.
In ne of their largest wars the Athenians were crushed by the Spartans. The Athenians mosstly one when the navy became a large factor in the war. Also, I've never seen a middle-school textbook with anything about Ancient Greeks.

Wow that was a long post.

[ Thursday, February 15, 2007 17:03: Message edited by: Kyrek ]
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Oldbiehood in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #49
quote:
I'm not counting his days as I_AM_A_MINOTAUR.
I'm perfectly fine with that.

I sort of remember the Imban joke from awhile ago. It's very hazy though.

quote:
First rule of newb-hood. You think you aren't.
That's not necessarily true. For instance, I'm a newbie and I know I am.

I pretty much voted everybody that I knew, other than ED, that came before me. Probably not what most people think, but for me those are the oldbies.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Calling all empires in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #33
I already mentioned the ET empire.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
The Ancient Greeks in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #9
There are pieces of historic fact that were put together to come up with the speed and size of these ships and how the Greeks rowed them.

They did more manual labor than us, but the people rowing the prototype exercise a lot. They are as strong as most athletes, who should be as strong as the Greeks.

We are discussing all Ancient Greeks.

Those numbers are the historians best guess, so for the purpose of the argument put trust in them. They could be wrong, but they have the highest chance of being right.

Once again, they are trained with the historians best guess, and piecing together historic fact.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Calling all empires in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #29
Yes it does. I hope to see it.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
The Ancient Greeks in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #3
Actually he supposedly ran for 48 hours. Each form of the story seems to be different. It makes it more reasonable when considering the fact that in many tellings he died immediately after telling the Athenians. The thing is, he had the fact that the future of Greece was at stake driving him. Knowing that the future of your family, and many other families is under your control adds a lot to the run.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
The Chosen Ending - Geneforge 5 in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #49
Yes they would says the Rebel ending.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
The Ancient Greeks in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #0
I found an interesting article in New Scientist, a science/history magazine that I'm subscribed to, about the Ancient Greeks. Apparently they were stronger than us. For instance, historians rebuilt a trireme and found 170 muscular people, trained them in rowing, and tried to row a trireme as fast as the Greeks did. They failed miserably. They managed a maximum endurance speed of 5 knots, while the Greeks endurance speed was 7 or 8 knots. The modern trireme could row 9 knots for a matter of seconds, while the Greeks rowed 9 knots throughout an entire naval battle(a lot longer than a couple of seconds). This was the average pace of Greek oarsmen, and that means that there were thousands upon thousands of oarsmen that could row that fast.

If that is true, than it's entirely possible the Legend of Pheidippides is true, except for the Pan part. It is entirely possible that one of the best runners of Greece could run 150 miles in two days, if others could keep a rowing pace of 2 or 3 knots faster than the modern rowers.

So is this true? Or is it an exaggeration of historic fact. I think that it is true.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Calling all empires in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #27
The Spartans

The most dangerous of the Ancient Greek city states, the Spartans were bred to fight. They kept slaves to support them, and went to war. 300 Spartan soldiers along with roughly 6000 other Greek soldiers held off a Persian force that had between 200 000 men and 2 000 000 men for three days. They were commanded by the Spartans, and fought like them. They greatly damaged the Persian army, a feat hard to achieve for 6000 soldiers. They were so deadly that they were thought to be the descendants of Heracles(Hercules). While technically not an empire, they should be counted as an honorary empire.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Weather in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #2
2nd snow day this year. I'm hoping tomorrow will be too, because I have this stupid science project to present.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Geneforge 4 on Digg.com, digg it and help out Spiderweb Software! in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #53
quote:
Dikiyoba is afraid that it's probably a holdover from your Minotaur days. But it's not like karma matters anyway.
Well my karma went down again recently, so I still must not be a very appealing member. No, karma doesn't matter that much. It doesn't tell you who voted which karma so you don't know whether you're rating really applies.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Things to improve Dikiyoba's ausome story! in General
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #126
Oh, ok. Sorry for the misunderstanding Upon Mars.

[ Wednesday, February 14, 2007 09:39: Message edited by: Kyrek ]
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
heustess quest in Geneforge Series
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #3
Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking about the war-bred servile that will join you in Geneforge 2.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
heustess quest in Geneforge Series
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #1
If I remember correctly Heusstes requires a pro-rebel reputation, and that you aren't a taker.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00

Pages