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Speculating about Avernum 4's plot in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #70
Overuse becomes boring. If you investigate the Vahnatai too much they lose their mystique. I could set out a long argument, but you'll find the basic points (and a fair amount that's not relevant, but I'm too lazy to summarise where I think the author's especially relevant.)

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/richardkmorgan/outland.htm

Besides, I don't think the Sliths were focused on very much in A1. They get a very cursory examination, with very little by way of character development. Actually developing them further would work better.

But note the better. I wouldn't want to play another game which just involves slaughtering hordes of another species. I want something with proper motivation for both sides, examination of themes and a rationale for why such a circumstance could arise. It should be entirely possible to do it without using the other races very much at all.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
You can drown plowing the fields or you can drown seeing the sights in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #33
Nice theory. Problem is that even if the charity has the free resources to make a fuss, it won't be clear the money isn't coming until well after the disaster, when it's less of a news item. Besides, the best they could hope for would be bringing down a junior government minister.

And a lot of the aid would have gone to Iran since it was the Iranian infrastructure that needed to be rebuilt. Thing is that it comes with codicils such as price matching, where you only get an equal amount of cash to the amount you pledge. Iran may not have the money to spend and even if it does may be unwilling to do so. Then there's politics. When Iran's being castigated for preventing reformists standing or for it's nuclear ambitions or for being a convenient whipping boy or whatever, not delivering on aid becomes easier.

I've heard Morgan's information from several sources. It's true, it's a scandal and it's the sort of thing that really needs to be stamped on. Aid to the Third World needs less potentially harmful codicils and more reliability. Similarly, huge numbers of countries don't pay their dues to go towards the running of the UN.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Speculating about Avernum 4's plot in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #53
But they'd have to have some kind of equivalent of the brittle bones trait built in. They're stick thin, after all.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Recommended Reading in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #27
I mentioned China Mieville earlier. He's possibly the best example, although some might argue he's not the best example. Vibrant world, believable characters with proper motives, scenes which have a wonderful cinematic quality and an ability to put a great deal of menace into his plotlines.

Then of course there's MJ Harrison. There are a whole cadre of writers who are writing similar stuff, but as I say I read comparatively little fantasy. I'm not saying Martin is a bad author, but there are a number of authors around who destroy him.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Life Cycle of the Adventurer in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #15
There's no proof that it was burnt at that time. It's equally plausible that it was burnt when the Muslims captured Alexandria or at a number of other points.

This is an interesting thread, but where it falls down is that it's depictions of the 'adventurers' it mentions are horrifically inaccurate.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Recommended Reading in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #24
I'm amazed you people think Martin is the height of realism in fantasy. It's more gritty than traditional fantasy, but that's not hard. I don't read very much fantasy (although I read a fair bit of SF) and I can think of several far more hard edged than he.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
You can drown plowing the fields or you can drown seeing the sights in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #29
I agree that it's easier to empathise with an individual than it is with 100000 people, but that's not relevant. You don't need to empathise, you don't need to feel their pain. Even without that, you should know very well what the appropriate response is. Thinking of it as a collection of individual tragedies is only useful for bringing the bigger picture to light. The only people who need to consider it on a person to person basis are those on the ground.

Sure, people may argue that it's very hard to picture 100000 dead. There's a reason for that. It's because it's a horrifically large number of fatalities. That's all you need to know.

How many dead tourists won't affect how it's remembered in three years. It affects how much overly focused, slightly neo-colonialist TV reports there are on the news.

Jesus might give everything away, but that's because he effectively lived hand to mouth. Not only is it much easier to give away what's been given to you, but if you actually have a large amount it's not necessarily best to give it all away in one go. Don't kill the chicken, just take the eggs.

I don't agree at all with David. Yes, both need attention, but the situation in Darfur is stabilising whereas the infrastructure in the tsunami hit areas is nearly destroyed and disease is a major worry. We can't just focus on this for three weeks then leave with the situation little better and much of the aid only pledged, which means it has a worse than 50% chance of getting there. Besides, if we don't pay attention the Indonesians could very well go back to their old tricks and go burning villages on Atjeh.

Mind you, that's beside the point. These things don't need to be quantified. There are 1 billion people on earth without access to clean water. That figure could and should be zero. There's no reason why we can't help everywhere at a much increased rate. We won't, because increased international aid is a vote loser, we have this bad habit of requiring price matching or liberalising your industries and too many areas are horrifically corrupt, but there's no reason why we couldn't.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Merry Decemberween! in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #17
I'd continue the theme by reporting that yesterday I was kicked in the testicles by a velociraptor for 12 hours, but I wasn't.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
New Year's Resolutions in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #19
I resolve to crash and burn.

I also have a New Year's Eve Resolution: to start 2005 with less of a hangover than I began 2004 with.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Recommended Reading in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #2
I can't think of any suitable books to follow on from your previous reading.

However, if you're just looking for fiction, I recommend Perdido Street Station by China Mieville.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Morality question in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #40
If they're of slight build you can wring their neck instead.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Morality question in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #31
I'd shoot as soon as I possibly could. My reasons are thus, the least important given first and the most important last:

Consider the results for the other person if you don't shoot. Yes, it's possible he might not shoot, but you have no way of knowing that. I'm not going to make life-or-death decisions on groundless optimism. (The hesitation isn't a grounds for believing he won't do it. If I was going to kill somebody and had decided completely, I'd still hesitate momentarily.) So if he shoots, as he likely will, and you don't, you're dead and he's got a gun in his hands. If agents of the law are nearby, he's going to prison for quite a number of years. If they aren't there, it may still be on his conscience.

Doing nothin? What, and disappoint him? It's a pretty terrible way to go and my inaction would brand me deceitful in his eyes.

My conscience can take it. It's self-defence of a kind and as Alorael says, convincing me to get involved in a suicide pact is not a great act of friendship. Even if I can only justify myself through cheap sophistry, if I fill the gaps in my argument with bitterness I'll get by.

Most importantly, I want to live. There is someone with a gun to my head standing in the way of that. I am not going to stand there passively and let him end my life in a cheap livejournalish fashion. When you try to kill me, it becomes personal. If there's a policeman watching, so be it. I have no idea how I'd cope with prison but I'm not prepared to let anybody else but me choose whether I live or die.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
hey ppl in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #28
Ukrainian and Russian used to be the same language early in the last millenium and have since diverged. The Tsarist government were the last group who tried to deny this. Essentially Ukrainians are the descendants of the inhabitants of the southern principalities of Kievan Rus' and Russians are the descendants of those from the north.

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics had a Russian Republic. If you were born in it, as Waffly was (although Dnepetrovsk, which originally became Russian because Moscow didn't trust the Ukrainians, is once again part of Ukraine) you'd be a Russian.

[ Sunday, December 19, 2004 13:10: Message edited by: Anthrax Laced Sugar Lumps ]

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
I AM TEH SPAMER in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #51
No, and since they recently updated it for the Source engine, killing it is not going to be a matter of turning off the life support machine so much as beating it to death with a rake.

Incidentally, I've only heard it pronounced as 'pawned.' Not that it makes much difference, since either way it's a convincing argument for nuclear proliferation.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
THE WORST MAN EVER: Round 1 in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #25
Alcibiades wasn't a fantastic hoplite general. I seem to remember he did some good work at Potidaea in his early years as a junior officer and he did as well at Mantinea with what he had as could have been expected. But primarily he was an admiral. And a trireme certainly beats a horse.

EDIT: Besides, Alcibiades was an Alcmaeonid. A member of one of the most prominent Athenian noble houses fights with the cavalry wherever possible. I doubt a racehorse could take down a warhorse and rider.

[ Sunday, December 19, 2004 13:37: Message edited by: Anthrax Laced Sugar Lumps ]

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Shah mat in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #45
George Washington has been dead for around 200 years and was anyway only a fallible human being.

Therefore he's pretty much useless for deciding foreign policy nowadays.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Always look on the bright side of life... in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #21
I believe it was a sketch about translators, but it was essentially typical absurdist humour.

Whilst I agree with Sarachim that one ought to know the philosophers, far more important still is staying silent if you can actually sing. It is a song that must always be sung execrably badly.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
A Hypothetical in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #56
I certainly wouldn't do it for 1 person. I'd be doubtful for a small group of people, but by the time we're in double figures, there's a hole in Joe where his cerebral cortex used to be.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
A Hypothetical in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #51
Unlikely in the extreme as the example was (and the logical flaws Aran brings up should be assumed not to exist, and indeed shooting someone in the chest will have more of an effect on the direction they move in than shooting them in the foot) I would kill Joe. 10% of the world do not deserve to die just because I'm too selfish to do the dirty work that needs to be done.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
A Hypothetical in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #43
Moral calculus is inherently dodgy, since you can't give the value of a life exactly. I don't believe that assigning life an arbitrary value demeans it however. As far as I'm concerned, it's a collection of organic cells. It may achieve great things as this bundle of organic cells, but that does not change what it essentially is.

I can't sympathise with Stug's statement that whilst he would kill a man who planned to killed a thousand others, he would not kill one innocent man if it saved a thousand. To me the death of 1000 through inaction is no better, it may even be worse, than the death of 1000 due to action. I'd kill him in a blink of an eye.

One can argue that that man might cure cancer. Sure. He might. So might any of that thousand who would live thanks to your action. It's hard to tell. Yes, I might be more dubious if the one man was a Nobel prize-winning biologist and his research on cancer was reaching a crucial stage, but he had somehow not got round to writing out his notes. But in general, since I can't know, I wouldn't worry.

Puppet: I know it makes me immoral, but I'm quite prepared to discriminate between people based on their views. I don't believe I'm right to do so and I don't believe people deserve to die as a result of their beliefs. But as a private citizen, if I had the choice of killing one of two people, functionally identical except that one holds views I think hateful and the other views I have a lot of time for, I know who I'd choose to kill.

Then again, I have no moral objection to murder if one can be almost certain it will do more good than harm. (Since it's a complicated issue working the above out, I'd have difficulty justifying killing on a large scale, because one simply cannot tell. Even if it seems the results would be good, killing millions tends to have a detrimental affect on the society in which they resided.) The only things that stop me killing for the betterment of humanity are a remnant of my previous liberal morality and a hefty dose of cowardice.

Gorzax will still grow up to kill, whether he is a young adult or a toddler (disregarding the nature of causality and the like.) Toddlers are less well guarded and easier to kill than firebrand extremist political leader. Just because it's small, doesn't mean you should let irrational sympathy swamp reason.

[ Tuesday, November 09, 2004 09:05: Message edited by: Love the Sin, Hate the Sinner ]

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
A Hypothetical in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #22
I'm absolutely certain I could kill the person with no qualms at the time, although I'm also certain that since I couldn't rationalise it as self-defence I'd be feeling a terrible weight of guilt for the rest of my life.

I'm not sure I would do it, though. I might, but I'm near certain that I could not rationally convince myself that it was morally right.

Essentially, I'd do just about anything, no matter how immoral, if I thought the end result was justified.

EDIT: As for the second moral dilemna, I'd do it, without a shadow of a doubt. I just hope I would give the possessions I gained to help improve or save other lives.

[ Monday, November 08, 2004 09:45: Message edited by: Love the Sin, Hate the Sinner ]

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Always look on the bright side of life... in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #9
Just because the founding fathers inadvertently created a great democracy, doesn't mean they didn't fairly frequently need a slap. They weren't any better than us, it's just that their narrow self-interest has, greatly perverted from its original vision, been shoehorned into something that is at least basically good. Therefore I tend to find quotes such as the one Aran just gave intensely irritating.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Arafat dead? in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #37
Prior to leaving for hospital, Arafat had been confined to his headquarters for over a year. He'd been frail for a long time and his mind was not what it was. We aren't exactly talking Professor Moriarty.

Terrorists are there because the Palestinian youth feels disenfranchised and hopeless and because Hamas does a fair amount of social work in the Palestinian community.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Arafat dead? in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #12
Sure, but considering Sharon's association with the original establishment of the settlements, it's a big change. He's not as much of a loony as he might be.

Whereas Arafat never really transformed from the terrorist/freedom fighter of the 70s into a proper statesman. He masqueraded as such, but his administration is horribly corrupt and the PA has a weak power structure, with no obvious successor.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Ghost Stories in General
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #28
My understanding from half-heartedly reading cheap historical fiction is that Halloween took over from the Celtic festival of Beltain, which was their new year and all the ghosts and whatever were supposed to be out on that night for strange and unfeasible reasons to do with the end of the old etc.

If I've got completely the wrong end of the stick or you're Wiccan, I apologise.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00

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