Speculating about Avernum 4's plot
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| Author | Topic: Speculating about Avernum 4's plot |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3605
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written Monday, January 3 2005 02:10
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Frankly, I hope the plot doesnt happen anywhere near Valorim. Ive alreay explored it once, and it pretty obvious that it will flourish afterwards, so im not too bothered about going back. Id like to go on to new places. -------------------- "Fair and unbiased" Posts: 358 | Registered: Monday, October 27 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
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written Monday, January 3 2005 02:50
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quote:The Vahnatai aren't particularly proficient at melee combat and throwing missiles, but their smiths are extremely skillful and talented craftsmen, which industriously shape very sharp, light and effective weapons daily. Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3605
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written Monday, January 3 2005 03:49
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That would be true, but the fact tht they get a lot more practice (from living longer) and that they have had thousands of years to develop styles of sword fighting would counter that. -------------------- "Fair and unbiased" Posts: 358 | Registered: Monday, October 27 2003 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Monday, January 3 2005 08:54
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But they'd have to have some kind of equivalent of the brittle bones trait built in. They're stick thin, after all. -------------------- Voice of Reasonable Morality Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, January 3 2005 11:15
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Which does make them a lot quicker. The Vahnatai fighting style usually goes for speed and dexterity rather than physical strength and endurance, I recall. If you do manage to hit one of them square, and they haven't got armor or magical shields on them, they're pretty much meat. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3605
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written Monday, January 3 2005 12:31
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Huge cave lore and low outdoorsman. Also their limited diet could have some effect on poison resistance. Not sure about endurance. Maybe because of their smaller frame a toughness or strength penalty might be in order. -------------------- "Fair and unbiased" Posts: 358 | Registered: Monday, October 27 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, January 3 2005 13:24
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Going by the monsters in Exile/Avernum, vahnatai are anything but weak, and not only in the magic department. Ordinary vahnatai make challenging enemies at low to mid levels. Vahnatai warriors are a real danger, and the tougher vahnatai make the end of E3/A3 extremely painful. You can make a case for placement in the game dictating power rather than vice versa, but all evidence points to vahnatai being really, really vicious fighters. I'd go with what Angry Ogre, Aran, and BtI have said. They're not particularly tough, but they are extraordinarily skilled and emphasize the advantages they have. A vahnatai PC race would only need to have a few things, like a bonus with melee weapons and maybe speed, to make a convincing novice vahnatai. Fifty levels and a great deal of training later, you'll see your vahnatai blademaster doing what blademasters do best. [Edit: Redundancy? Redundancy? Redundancy?] —Alorael, who similarly sees no need for super magical power inherent in all vahnatai. Some of them are powerful, yes, but they have the benefit of training for longer than most other races are alive. [ Monday, January 03, 2005 13:25: Message edited by: Amazingly Alliterative ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Monday, January 3 2005 14:50
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Hm, would the vahnatai warriors still be strong if you took away their waveblades and razordisks? It seems to me those are their strengths, and they take a long time to perfect them. [ Monday, January 03, 2005 14:50: Message edited by: - ] -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5321
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written Monday, January 3 2005 15:48
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if a vahnatai PC race was created, i think it would be perfectlly logical to give them a rather strong penalty in stregth after all- no vahnatai even com ewith boots, sndals, pants, sheilds, or armour- just swords, razordisks, a poncho, and perhaps a gold trinket and some coinage- not indicitive of a particulery hearty, or strong race. Posts: 59 | Registered: Friday, December 24 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, January 3 2005 17:35
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Waveblades and razordisks are good but not remarkably powerful weapons, as you can see when you equip your PCs with them. Giving a vahnatai inferior gear would of course make it less effective, but there's more to it than what it swings or hurls. —Alorael, who isn't sure how much can be read into vahnatai taste in clothing. They don't wear pants or jewelry because they don't wear them, not necessarily because they can't. The lack of armor is a more likely sign of frailty, although the lack of even the lightest armor again suggests either a lack of knowledge or, more likely, a preference against armor. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Monday, January 3 2005 17:51
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Maybe vahnatai get huge bonuses with their own waveblades, etc. This way, it explains how these weapons aren't too useful to players but also why vahnatai are tough. I dunno, I hope the vahnatai race isn't over-used in A4 - I liked how they were mysterious in the other games. -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Monday, January 3 2005 18:13
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Or maybe only vahnatai are good with them? :) -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3871
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written Monday, January 3 2005 18:32
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I seriously doubt the possibility of a large-scale, long-term war with the Vahnatai. The Vahnatai Avernum dealt with in A2 and A3 were stated as being one tribe out of many; also, Bon-Ihrno (spelling?) never died; he lived at the end of A3. People tend to forget about him and the fact that he does hold a prominent governmental position. I'm wondering what sort of role the player's party will fall into in the next one. In A1, they were just sort of heroes, in A2 they were basically secret agents and envoys, and in A3 they were explorers and also envoys. Personally, I'm hoping for some entrenched battles, with two sides waiting on either end of a town map, with mages bombarding the enemy side, similar to WWI. That could make for some interesting espionage and combat scenarios. The problem there is that it seems pretty difficult to come up with a force that's reasonable and the same time that a high-level party can't eliminate; that's the only bit that could pose some problems, other than game speed. You know what might be interesting? If some sort of cataclysmic (spelling?) disaster occurred - I'm thinking a large, earth-shaking meteor strike. Then you could throw in the Anama as religious zealots for some good ol' religious debate fervor, along with the shattering of the empire, the breakdown of all communication, looting, pillaging, etc. You could be an agent of the empire sent into a troubled area to restore order, or an avernite taking orders from a paranoid new royalty who is seizing the opportunity to take Valorim. Or under a third-party, new kingdom. Or completely and utterly on your own; it would depend on how long after the strike the setting took place. -------------------- Psh. I'll think of something clever later. Posts: 7 | Registered: Thursday, January 8 2004 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Monday, January 3 2005 19:25
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Bon-Ihrno is dead. Rentar-Ihrno holds up his head at the end of A3 when you enter her chamber. You even get to see him die if you rest at his place. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Monday, January 3 2005 21:01
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Bon-Ihrno ressurection here we come! I'm sure only in my dreams. :) -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Tuesday, January 4 2005 08:59
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Do you fantasize about Bon-Ihrno? Anyway, why would the vahnatai have a major role in A4, even to the extent of maybe having a PC? [ Tuesday, January 04, 2005 09:04: Message edited by: The Absolut Sagacious stranger ] -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Tuesday, January 4 2005 09:26
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They've played side roles too long perhaps. Sliths were a major character in Avernum. So were nephilim. They got turned to PCS. Empire was a major character in A2. Same with A3. Got any other ideas, smart one? -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Tuesday, January 4 2005 09:32
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Hey, come on. I was just wondering. Look at how many posts there are in this thread that mention vahnatai. -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Tuesday, January 4 2005 10:15
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It's just avernum 4 needs a new concept, and vahnatai seem to be the ones based on their previous usage in avernum. their time for being in the spotlight is a4, i believe. :) -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3605
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written Tuesday, January 4 2005 11:38
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Jef has a habit of turning things on their head. As we all know, the enemies in the first avernum are the allies in the next, and the allies in the second avernum are your enemies in the thid. Maybe (hopefully not) he will do this again. Maybe something as "clever" as enemy of avernum iew point. -------------------- "Fair and unbiased" Posts: 358 | Registered: Monday, October 27 2003 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Tuesday, January 4 2005 13:13
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Overuse becomes boring. If you investigate the Vahnatai too much they lose their mystique. I could set out a long argument, but you'll find the basic points (and a fair amount that's not relevant, but I'm too lazy to summarise where I think the author's especially relevant.) http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/richardkmorgan/outland.htm Besides, I don't think the Sliths were focused on very much in A1. They get a very cursory examination, with very little by way of character development. Actually developing them further would work better. But note the better. I wouldn't want to play another game which just involves slaughtering hordes of another species. I want something with proper motivation for both sides, examination of themes and a rationale for why such a circumstance could arise. It should be entirely possible to do it without using the other races very much at all. -------------------- Voice of Reasonable Morality Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4590
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written Tuesday, January 4 2005 14:40
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Not necessarily directly on this topic, but all this talk about the Vahnatai and Slith makes something occur to me. The Slith we know about are a group that was banished from caverns deeper underground. We also know that there are many groups of Vahnatai other than the ones we met in Exile / Avernum living deeper underground. I would say that it is very likely that at least one group of the Vahnatai knows about the "good" Sliths living deeper underground. Maybe Avernum 4 could somehow involve some of this? -------------------- I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation. - George Bernard Shaw Posts: 103 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Tuesday, January 4 2005 14:41
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Heres my idea for a plot: The Vahatnai and Sliths form ashaky allaince that you have to break. Followers of Bon Inrho led by that vahatnai who gives you the "Sail to Vahatnai Lands" quest in A2. Join avernum in honor of Bon. 2 new races who have been living above the clouds. Like bear people and Dragon people. They both try to invade the surface. The dragons and dragon people merely want to destroy the empire. However they want to aid Avernum. The bear people just want to kill everyone. Avernum forms a secret alliance with the Empire. Hoping the dragons and dragon people don't find out. And thats about all for me. -------------------- Bringing the gift of Giant Intelligent Friendly Talking Spiders to all. That is to say I'm bringing the gift of GIFTS to all. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Tuesday, January 4 2005 14:50
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quote:I think they were one of the more focused monsters along with the nephilim. The nephilim and sliths both had a lot of different forts, and were power players. [ Tuesday, January 04, 2005 14:50: Message edited by: - ] -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, January 4 2005 14:55
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quote:You're in luck. A soon-to-be-released BoA scenario touches on this topic. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |