Speculating about Avernum 4's plot
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, February 4 2005 12:00
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I am well aware, Solodric (and you might at least try to spell my name correctly), that there are several clans of vahnatai. The vahnatai of VoDT could very well pop up in A4. The thought did cross my mind, but, well, we don't know. Since Jeff actually did significant engine modification, and since being able to play vahnatai PCs is one of the top most-requested features for any new Exile/Avernum, he may very well have included this. I have my doubts. However, I will admit that we don't actually know. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5474
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written Wednesday, February 9 2005 07:52
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As Dav says: "The dragons finally start the revenge on the empire that they kept talking about and you are members of the empire( not avernum) who have to stop it...maybe you could have a moral choice to side with the dragons or something" this would be an interesting main plot with subplots like X and Commander Johnson becoming villain-like. i never liked 'x'; he was too arrogant and yeah..ignorant. the same holds true for berra. and what about erika? is she going to be a good girl again? somehow i dont think so! Posts: 2 | Registered: Saturday, February 5 2005 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, February 9 2005 10:07
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quote:Somehow I don't think so either, being as how she is currently engaged being ashes. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4256
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written Wednesday, February 9 2005 10:33
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It is too easy for any good mage to leave behind something. The last creation of Erika, waiting behind the closed doors of her tower. Sounds like the conclusion to GF2. [ Wednesday, February 09, 2005 10:34: Message edited by: m's provocation ] Posts: 564 | Registered: Wednesday, April 14 2004 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5137
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written Wednesday, February 9 2005 16:10
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Personally, I'd like to see the empire in a conventional war. Not sure how you'd dig up an opponent they could fight, but I would like to see Imperial troops fighting how they fight best. What I would really like, is to see Vogel's vision of the imperial capital. I invisioned Imperial City as an absolutely massive metroplis. A roughly circular city, with multiple, thick towering wall-rings, streaching accross the horizon on a nearly totally flat plain, with a massive towering citidel of stone at the center. I want to see Vogel's idea of what the center of economics, power and learning of an entire world would look like. Posts: 4 | Registered: Tuesday, October 26 2004 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, February 9 2005 16:19
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quote:Probably like three different cities. The merchants wouldn't share a town with the soldiers, the soldiers wouldn't share a town with the thinkers, and the thinkers would want to be as far as possible from the government anyway. The Empire is so staggeringly generic that I'd cringe to think of Jeff introducing its heartland. If I had any say, A4 would center around some new frontier -- space would be nice -- or a distant future. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5137
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written Thursday, February 10 2005 13:07
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quote:Not really, I don't think. Start with the Empress and the beaurocratic center she would need to actuall run the affairs of an entire planet. Thousands upon thousands of functionaries, secretaries and ministers. Her government would easily outstrip any on Earth in size. Second, consider that all money and power radiates from the Empress. Which means that the best paid people in the Empire, are going to be her Generals and Advisors. Those people will in turn, comission the magicians, priests, artisiens and thinkers, who will presumably, want to live nearby. In turn, that massive population will need services, thus bringing the merchents, willing or otherwise, into the Imperial City. Finally, such a center would be huge, and more importantly, utterly vital to the Empire succeding. Taking the capital would crush the Empire as it would cut the head off the beaurocratic infastructure needed to keep the entire thing running. Imperial city would have to be the best defended city on the planet. And given that we're defending a city that is likely already pushing up into the millions of people , the garrison to defend (and maintain order) in such a geographically and demographically large locale would itself, have to be very large. Finally, the military force present would again mean a new set of government payrolls, attracting still more merchents, and since they're soldiers, also a nightlife and a red-light district. Finally, since all power would eminate from the Empress, anyone looking for a position in the Empire would want to be as physically close to the heart of the Empire as possible. Meaning that the rich-who-want-to-become-powerful would find that their first step is a summer home in the Capital, even if they didn't come from the Capital. It would be one city, since the beaurocrats, merchents, artists/thinkers/mages, soldiers and artisiens all need eachother. Similiar to the Washington D.C. suburb-halo, excep tthat considering the decreased ability for the average person to travel, suburbs would likely not be an option. Beijing became a massive city by being the administrative center for such a government, one that is admitably, much smaller than the Empire would be. The Imperial City would be similiar, I think, but just that much bigger. Posts: 4 | Registered: Tuesday, October 26 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, February 10 2005 14:06
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Large-scale teleportation systems near the capital are possible. Remember that Valorim is the backwater, and that the real magic is likely to be elsewhere. Actually, the idea of a Forbidden City and Beijing setup in the Empire is both plausible and a good springboard for very entertaining plots about intrigue. I could see Jeff working with something like that, too, although I could also see him rejecting it out of hand. It's hard to tell with some ideas. —Alorael, who also suspects that the Empire doesn't work exactly like China. For one thing, it doesn't have quite the same flavor of corruption. For another, Prazac managed to hole up in Blackcrag without an entourage of thousands. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Thursday, February 10 2005 16:07
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I don't think there would be large scale teleportation systems in the capital, maybe near the capital for fear of invasion, and also because the emperor was assassinated by a group of adventurers teleporting in. These would be surrounded by fortifications. Remember these things are powered by magical energy. More likely there would be lots of wards against teleportation inside the capital and some kind of transport system-- maybe like the golem factory-- rolling roads. An inner city which was only accessible to the imperial household and retainers would make sense. I am imagining it would be heavily guarded. I imagine the capital being built on a hill, with the richer districts higher up the hill and the poorer districts lower on the hill. With the trade districts and factories on the outskirts. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5489
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written Friday, February 11 2005 06:23
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I don't understand why everyone is so gung-ho about supporting the Empire. From a game play and scenario design standpoint, I feel very constrained by the fact that the Empire dominates like almost the entire surface of the earth. The impression we get from the BoA scenarios is that the Empire is incompetent and unethical (as in VoDT), frequently corrupt or arbitrary (lord Volpe in aSR), and genocidal toward all non-human forms of life. Empress Prazac or no, what's to admire about that? What I would like to see is the Empire's Decline and Fall--everyone knows empires don't last forever; they become corrupt, decadent, overstretched, overconfident, and ignore obvious threats to their continuation. Remember the emphasis on misfits and outcasts and freethinkers in the first 2 Avernum games? Even were the Empire ruled justly, I can't see an alliance between the kind of people who ended up in Avernum in the first place and those who enjoy living under the totalitarian and controlling regime of the Empire. So what I would like to see in Avernum 4 begins with the disintegration of the Empire, the chaos following which would offer great opportunities for adventure. [ Friday, February 11, 2005 06:31: Message edited by: Verloc ] -------------------- "What we can say with confidence is that Rome fell gradually--and that Romans, for many decades, scarcely noticed what was happening." --Thomas Cahill, How the Irish Saved Civilization Posts: 4 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3978
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written Sunday, February 13 2005 15:12
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Indeed. avernum 4 shall be a blaze of gore in all likelyhood. The empire might still stand, but Rentar-Ihrno is going to get her ass kicked, and the entire continent of valorim is likely to be taken by Avernites. As they said in ASR, an island is easy to hold once you have it. Even a continent. Seriously, the Empire is pretty much the same as it was in Hawthorne's rule. They hate nephilim, and they limit magical teaching. How can the empire tolerate the Avernites, who live and freely teach magic, on the surface? The only thing to keep the peace is one or the other conforming. The empire sure as hell wont conform. Neither will the Avernites. Bloodshed shall ensue. And with the entire continent of Valorim in thier hands as well as Avernum, they will have a LOT of power and it will be VERY hard to take them down. Maybe out of the empire's grasp. A continent is hard to take, and that gigantic series of underground caverns known as Avernum is likely to be quickly settled and spread out now that they have supplies from above. In short, the avernites already have hellaland, if they take Valorim they will have the equivalent of two continents to the Empire's 3, and the Avernites are the strategists, the nonconformists, the adventurers. They're creative. That makes them strategically devastating. Guerilla warfare vs. uniform lines. Even "terror and atrocity" cant make them win that war. the American Revolution pretty well proved that. AND the Empire is unstable - rebellions all over the place. ASR proved that the rebels can be effective. If Avernum is making a huge stand against the empire, the empire can expect serious opposition from it's inside. Thats my say ;) [ Sunday, February 13, 2005 15:13: Message edited by: Solodric ] Posts: 125 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Sunday, February 13 2005 17:29
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Maybe itz been said before but how about a war between the Empire and a newly found Nephilim Tribe. Your party has to help one side or the other. To begin with the Averenties are accused of helping the Nephilim side, so are in danger of losing their newly acquired lands in Krizan. Put You on The Game---The Game----The Documentary Yea bang it out yo Face. -------------------- I stop rubber at 160km/h, five times a week. CANUCKS RESPEK! My Style The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Sunday, February 13 2005 23:15
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quote:Far-fetched. There are several centers of magical learning, popping up all over the place. Diplomacy with the Dead took place in Eastern Valorim, and the Empire certainly didn't have a problem with a magical school established so far in the outskirts. As for discrimination against Nephilim, that only happened in a very few cities and has likely stopped a few years after A3. In Avernum 3, what you see in the form of the Dervishes is the last stand of the "conservatives" if you will. The revolution has come and gone, with the ascension of Prazac and the plagues of Valorim. There was no all-out war. If there is any future conflict, it might be a few old-school fossils rallying support in one of the other continents and stirring up a civil war. The definition of the Empire is that it is represented by its Empress. When the Empress deals with the Avernites, then how can the Empire start a war against them? The most that can happen is a pocket of dissent breaking off and fighting the rest of the Empire and Avernum. quote:What the hell is 'hellaland'? -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperment, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, February 14 2005 00:20
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hella = "large amounts of". Well, either that or he was labouring under the impression that the nation of Greece was ruled by Avernites. [ Monday, February 14, 2005 00:21: Message edited by: Sagieuleaux ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Monday, February 14 2005 14:38
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I am going to use the classic Japanese civilization as an example. The way to the throne was through control of the imperial family. There was no such things as direct revolution-- the imperial household are considered the children of the gods. Not sure what mythical or religious status which the imperium holds. Though the sun symbol is very similar to Japan. You did this by: 1) Getting yourself proclaimed the official temple of the empire. 2) Marrying the imperial family. 3) Becoming the general of the imperial family. Thus you controlled the imperial household troops and got to choose which of the children ascended the throne. 4) Alternately you made the family of the empire-- state symbols and pensioned them off. Constitutional Monarchy. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2155
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 16:50
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Things (likely already mentioned, but reading six pages to ensure this would probably leave me with nothing to say) that could possibly be in Avernum 4... Sliths, Sliths, Sliths: Yeah, there's still a little war going on in the caverns of Avernum, and there's always the distant idea of the original Slithzerkai homeland. Oh, and here's another twist for you- the (at least one sage) Vanahtai claimed in Avernum 2 to have never seen the Slithzerkai before. Both races are, however, native to the caves, both are supposedly ancient, and once more the primary slithzerkai civilization is very advanced, or at least the evidence in the original Avernum would have us believe. Have the two races really never met before, or is there something else behind that... Demons, Daemons, and the Hothster: By now the idea of a demon run conflict is cliche` in the industry of RPGs, but they're still a major part of the Avernum story. Grah-Hoth isn't going to take getting his kingdom overtaken, being humiliated, and being humiliated again. An alliance with the revenge bent Vahnatai maybe? At least there'd be Sss-Thsss 2, methinks. Ghosts of the Past: Demonmage Garzahd comes back for a second round. Lich-flavored maybe? With hundreds of thousands of dead Imperial Soldiers just waiting to be made into undead lackies, the question isn't so much a matter of "why?" as it is "why not?" Garzahd was an insanely potent archmage before he died, and probably had more than a few connections in the less than savory realms of existence. Besides, lesser beings have cheated death before, so why not him? More Ghosts of the Past: Anyone remember that little tomb that only opened on a certain day in the area of Motrax's caverns that was not only ancient, but HUMAN to boot? Yeah, what's up with that? Clearly Avernum couldn't have been the first human power in the region. What could this entail? Maybe light into why Grah-Hoth was in Avernum in the first place? Maybe the Vahnatai have even older hatreds of the humanity that few of them can still remember? I don't know how large of a part this could play in Avernum 4, but writing it off as an impossibility would likely lead to surprise. Chaos, turmoil, and Avernum's plight: Okay, we have probably at least half the population of Avernum leaving for the surface, a Slith war going on, betrayal of the Vahnatai, the death of one the greatest mage to help found Avernum, the primary source of magic in avernum obliterated by Avernum's oldest enemy who was nearly unleashed upon them once more, and a very old King without any form of compatent heir seeing as no one has any idea what happened to the first great party of adventurers... Can you say "unstable"? How far this could boil over if said king were to collapse is anyone's guess, but it wouldn't be pretty. I'm sure most of this has been thought of already, but if not then great. I've no doubt Jeff will continue to deliver as he drives his flagship series into the realms of quadrilogy. --- Your long winded maniac, Necris Omega -------------------- Razordisk Frisbee Golf Posts: 168 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5480
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written Friday, February 18 2005 07:58
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I'm new here, but I was wondering. Does the war in Avernum 3 actually start? Or does will it start it 4? -------------------- Placebo Software, there's anecdotal evidence that it works! http://placebo.95mb.com Posts: 8 | Registered: Sunday, February 6 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Saturday, February 19 2005 19:55
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What?^^ I don't understand your post. But as for wars there never was an Avernum Empire war in A3, nearly but not quite. Whether there was one after the colonizing of Krizan by the Averenties, perhaps that will be addressed in A4. Which is what this thread is about innit. -------------------- I stop rubber at 160km/h, five times a week. CANUCKS RESPEK! My Style The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, February 19 2005 21:19
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There is a war between Avernum and the Empire in A2, and that war makes up about 2/3 of the plot (there's a reason for that specific number, too!). There's no such war in A3; in fact, your Avernite party goes around saving the Empire. A war could start in A4, but it would be a reverse from the events of A3. On the other hand, A3 was completely opposite to the relations between surface and caves in A1 and A2. So, in a nutshell, we make up anything we like while Jeff does his own thing. —Alorael, who liked massacring the Empire more than saving it. The vahnatai are niftier allies than a bunch of prim and proper human soldiers with real authority problems in that the authority ruling over them is highly problematic. [ Sunday, February 20, 2005 11:10: Message edited by: This moniker is even better. ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4592
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written Sunday, February 20 2005 02:37
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Cool. It seems some new things have been said about this subject. I'd like to offer an idea that doesn't include a "war" theme, but as the Avernum games tend to be action oriented, I imagine there's going to be a conflict of sorts. Seems unavoidable. Vahnatai PCs: A pipe dream if there ever was one. But, on the other hand one of the major pipe dreams in the CRPG community, that of a Fallout 3 seems to be a reality, so why not this? I've been hoping to pray a Vahnatai PC since E2. But like other negative voices, I hardly see that happening. Hope springs eternal, though. I pray for something else: whatever characters from previous games show up, PLEASE Mr. Jeff Vogel sir: don't pull something similar to what happened to Rentar-Ihrno in E3/A3 (sorry if If I spelt her name wrong) I'd like to see action taking place in another continen of Ermarian, not in the same one as A3/E3. A setting in the distant future would be grand (heck even if the distant future is only 100 years, turning A4 into a kind of first part for another trilogy taking place farther down the time stream), but I somehow doubt that as well. Gives a reason to hope, though. With Avernum in the title, I think that it will involve the caves. Perhaps he is going to continue with the struggle of the Avernites to deal with the Empire as equals. Maybe we have go around the Empire lands once again saving it. Although. . . If he follows the stroy lines, maybe the Avernites have settled in Valorim (again with the worry about spelling) and the game deals with the different dinamycs that that entails--> Avernites trying to survive as equals with the Empire just as parts of the Empire want them gone, while others help them. Who knows? Anyway those were my not very worthwhile 2 cents. Ta! -------------------- quote:Random Jack Vance Quote Manual Generator Apparatus (Cugel's Saga) Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1425
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written Sunday, February 20 2005 03:28
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There was a war between Exile and Avernum? Was this before or after they beat the Empire? Posts: 190 | Registered: Wednesday, July 3 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Sunday, February 20 2005 03:53
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Seeing as how Exile and Avernum are the same thing, plot-wise, I'm pretty sure he meant the Empire and Avernum. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1425
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written Sunday, February 20 2005 05:32
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I know, I was joking Posts: 190 | Registered: Wednesday, July 3 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, February 20 2005 11:13
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There are wars between Exile and Avernum all the time on these boards! —Alorael, who started out wondering if he should say Avernum vs. the Empire, Exile vs. the Empire, or Avernum/Exile vs. the Empire. He decided on the former, but his subconscious apparently had the last laugh. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5627
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written Friday, March 25 2005 21:54
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The whole Avernum 4 came out of left field, for me anyway - I was wandering over to see if there were any new BOA scenarios and I almost fell off my chair when I saw "After Geneforge 3 I will be working on A4" or something along those lines. Because so far, all the Avernum games have been predictable, for lack of a better word. Now, this will have a huge amount of spoiler points in it, so anyone that hasn't finished off the Avernum trilogy (soon to be quadrilogy) should carefully skip this post. A1 - group of adventurers get chucked into Avernum, so do what they were doing above and adventure. After a few goblin/nephil slaughtering quests, Micah wants help, and the slith slaughter starts with promises of great rewards. Grah-Hoth battle, to protect Avernum and the adventurers, finding an exit for obvious reasons and killing... erm... King thingy (forgotten his name, m'fraid) for revenge. A2. The Empire gets quite PO'ed because of the assassination, and they were already setting up base in the caves. Declares war. Our new PCs are soldiers, so they gather around allies and slaughter enemies. Recover crystals to get alliance, shut down teleporter to stop insane amounts of reinforcements flooding the caves, kill Garzad (sp?) because he's in charge of the Empire armies. Avernum fights off the Empire, so the next thing to do is... A3. Getting back onto the surface. Killing of monster plagues so we have a habitable home and then... cutting them off at the source to stake out a claim the Empire will honour. Although specific plot points may be surprises, the overall direction of the plot is always predictable. So A4 will be... what? No big armies after our heads, no demons trying to break free of prisons, we have a home on the surface and it's pretty tame now that all the plagues have been killed off/distracted by slaughtering each other. Of course, Jeff has been going down different paths lately - went from 'defend the homeland that is perpetually nice and fluffy!' of the Exile series, to two sides of the story of Nethergate, to the three factions of Geneforge and four of Geneforge 2, all of which have, to a lesser or greater degree, valid points to their arguements. So Avernum 4 is probably going to be quite different to the first three, because of the large amount of time before the plot was laid down in Exile. A4 is a clean slate for Jeff and he won't go more-of-the-same, you can count on it. Although, if he does try to do a re-hash slith war/vahnatai war/empire war/plague war, I am going to scream. Posts: 14 | Registered: Friday, March 25 2005 08:00 |