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Originally written by Lady Davida:

Alec, that you think you can use the word "shameful" to describe anything but your own actions and words is mind-boggling. That you and TM are personally attacking Kelandon, of all people, for supporting a candidate other than yourself, is simply inexcusable. If the two of you would stop worshipping yourselves and acting like toddlers with sticks up their asses, maybe you'd be able to win your own election even without biasing it in your own favor. Kel is blameless, as you well know, so accept some responsibility for once, cut your losses, and resolve your own grudges before you make much more of a fool of yourself.

EDIT: Too late. Professional dignity? Blood feud? Cost him dearly? What the hell? Who do you think you are?

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Originally written by Ash Lael:

So complain about the rules and the guy who wrote them.

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Originally written by Kelandon:

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Originally written by George A. Custer & The SE Party:

As an unfortunate and intentional result of Kelandon's shameful behavior

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You make the rules, you live with them. My actions were not, by any stretch of the imagination, shameful, unless you admit that your rules were shameful to begin with.

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Originally written by Overwhelming:

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Originally written by Drakefyre:

It can glorify the occult all it wants, because magic and witchcraft aren't real. Kids know that. What about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny? Isn't that just as occult? Kids are not stupid. It's just a book. I fail to see the harm that this brings.

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Imaginary (or virtual) experiences and well-written fantasies can affect the mind and memories as much, if not more, than actual experiences. Designed to stir feelings and produce strong emotional responses, a well-planned myth with likeable characters can be far more memorable than the less exciting daily reality -- especially when reinforced through books, toys and games as well as movies. Small wonder Harry's fans have been counting the days until their next fantastic journey into Hogwarts' classes on sorcery, divination, potions and spells.
You are once more failing to draw a distinction between reality and fiction. Yes, yes, the fiction is good at implanting itself, and I won't argue that Harry Potter isn't mental kudzu, because God knows it is - but proliferation and predomination of the idea doesn't make it non-fiction in healthy people. For example, and I may have to make this one recurring, every Westerner knows his Greek myths well enough, and constant deluges of books, toys, games, and movies, and even mandatory Greek courses in school - all of these things reinforce the antics of the Olympians. This has been the state of affairs since the birth of mass culture and education in the 19th century, and yet no one except for a few neo-pagan morons have actually taken up the belief that Zeus & co. have ever existed.

Each occult image and enticing suggestion prompts the audience to feel more at home in the dark, paranormal setting. Children identify with their favorite characters and learn to see wizards and witches from a popular peer perspective rather than from God's perspective. Those who sense that the occult world is evil face a choice: Resist peer pressure or rationalize their imagined participation in Harry's supernatural adventures.
But... but the 'occult world' isn't real. Witchcraft has no actual power, and any self-respecting Wiccan will acknowledge it's mostly a confidence scheme, not an actual draw on some mystical force but a psychological exercise. I get the ominous feeling that you disagree with me and the real world on that one, though...

The second choice may quiet the nagging doubts, but rationalizing evil and justifying sin will sear the conscience and shift the child's perception of values from God's perspective to a more "comfortable" cultural adaptation. Even Christian children can easily learn to conform truth to multicultural ideals and turn God's values upside down - just as did God's people in Old Testament days:
'conform truth to multicultural ideals' is a charming turn of phrase that I am sure you could reproduce in your native tongue in such a way as would fit perfectly in the mouth of a nineteenth-century Brazilian politico arguing against emancipation in the face of sudden global disapproval of slavery.
Now that I'm done with erecting straw men, I do not see how Harry Potter justifies or promotes 'sin', with the possible exception of practicing witchcraft. And the injunctions against witchery are, to be fair, only against invoking Satan and his comrades, and I am uncertain as to whether Harry Potter encourages that either. Has it occurred to you that perhaps living in a country which for centuries gave legal status to the Inquisition might, perhaps, color your interpretation on the vague divine mandates on sorcery? In short, the view that 'Harry Potter encourages sin', which is basically the harm you advance to back up your argument, is not well-supported by actual Scripture, but more by doctrine.

"But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward." Jeremiah 7:24

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness....
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!" Isaiah 5:2-21

Again, all of this is relevant assuming that we are willing to accept modern, fictional witchcraft as sinful and against God - you're sort of begging the question here. It would be like a Chinese Catholic bringing up the same chapter and verse to justify forced labor for intellectual dissidents against Maoism.

Immersed in the values taught at Hogwarts School for Witchcraft and Wizardry, children become spiritually blind. They lose their natural aversion for the devious spirits represented by the creatures and symbols in this eerie world. Caught up in the exciting story, they absorb the suggested values and store the fascinating images in their minds -- making the forbidden world of the occult seem more normal than the Kingdom of God.
If you can't convince children that your Kingdom of God is any more real than a clear work of fiction, you might as well argue that any non-fiction is evil and against God. Hell, you could use this same tack against C.S. Lewis.

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9
What does Christ specifically have against witches? If you're willing to say that since he's not specifically for witches and thus this passage applies, I defy you to justify, say, medical science, which Jesus says nothing in particular about. And if you're willing to say that he's specifically against witches, I defy you to point me to where - because, so far, you've pointedly refrained from doing so, using Old Testament references to this point and here citing the Apostle Paul.


This inner change is usually unconscious, for the occult lessons and impressions tend to bypass rational scrutiny. After all, who will stop, think and weigh the evidence when caught up in such a fast-moving visual adventure? Fun fantasies and strategic entertainment has a special way of altering values, compromising beliefs and changing behavior in adults as well as in children.

Now, I hate to break up one of your paragraphs, but I think I need to repeat myself before moving on to the rest of this paragraph, which frankly gets to be a mixture of frightening and risible all its own. You're saying that the values of Harry Potter are essentially anti-Christian, and I'm saying that I see no non-dogmatic justification for that. Scripture is silent on the issue, except where it defies Satan and deviltry (as it is wont to do), which is absent in Harry Potter. I'm also telling you that, as fictions, no matter how influential they are, they cannot pervade the thought processes as non-fictions can, no matter how well the brain is bombarded with them. For instance, I doubt if you were to study the Rig Veda for six years, you'd suddenly become a practicing Hindu. And if you believe you would, I want you to think long and hard about exactly what that implies about your own religious beliefs.
To continue:

This learning process has been named "edutainment" -- a favored way to train multicultural citizens for the envisioned 21st century community.
Your continued dismissal of 'multicultural' things is actually rather perturbing. I understand your willingness to disagree with other groups, but your apparent intent to pretend they don't exist at all is unsettling.

Its power to influence beliefs and behavior is illustrated by today's marketing firms which spend billions on entertaining ads that touch emotions, ignore the facts, yet motivate people to buy the product.
A catchy commercial in which the Devil wins the war for the souls of humanity by tempting men with candy will not convince anyone to change their theology, though. I think you're drastically and intentionally overstating the malleability of people's belief and fact systems. I would understand if Harry Potter were being treated as a factual work, but it is not, nor does it purport itself to be.


"Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things, and revive me in Your way." Psalm 119:37
Hmm. If that applies, and is not simple and noteworthy poetry as the Psalms actually intend to be, and God hasn't struck down Rowling or at least shut her up - I guess that's saying something about your entire line of argument, ain't it?

The main product marketed through this movie is a belief system that clashes with everything God offers us for our peace and security.
Oh, thank God. You're finally going to tell me how it clashes with Godly teachings. I've been waiting for this for an hour, and finally my anticipation is over. Hooray!

This pagan ideology comes complete with trading cards, computer and other wizardly games, clothes and decorations stamped with HP symbols, action figures and cuddly dolls and audio cassettes that could keep the child's minds focused on the occult all day and into night.
Aw, damn it.

But in God's eyes, such paraphernalia become little more than lures and doorways to deeper involvement with the occult. In contrast, He calls a person "blessed" who -

"walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,

nor stands in the path of sinners,

nor sits in the seat of the scornful [mockers];

"But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night. Whatever he does shall prosper." Psalm 1:1-3
Again, I am curious as to where exactly you have drawn the idea that Rowling or her books are ungodly, with the exception of the witches and wizards stuff - standard fantasy fare.

It might be hard to escape the symbols that remind people of Harry. His words and phrases help fuel today's cultural transformation:

The mainstream media uses the word "muggles" to deride those who don't want children to read Harry Potter books.

"A columnist from the Chicago Daily Herald used Harry-Speak.... He said that a particular NBC Olympics commentator was the 'dementor of the sports commentators.'"

"Coeur d'Alene, Idaho is going to name this year's snowstorms after the Harry Potter characters. The first blizzard of the year will be called Albus...."

The implied source of power behind Harry's magical feats tend to distort a child's understanding of God. In the movie as in the books, words traditionally used to refer to occult practices become so familiar that children begin to apply the same terms to God and His promised strength. Many learn to see God as a power source that can be manipulated with the right kind of prayers and rituals -- and view his miracles as just another form of magic. They base their understanding of God on their own feelings and wants, not on His revelation of Himself.
Then that's the fault of piss-poor religious teachings, not of reading Harry Potter. People already expect God to function like a water faucet, helping them out when they need it and going away when they expect to have fun. Saying that Harry Potter encourages that approach is both (a) unbacked by any real-world evidence, so far as I am aware and (b) not significant, due mainly to the fact that it's a new face on an old problem.

Blind to the true nature of God, children will synthesize or blend Biblical truth with the pagan beliefs and magical practices demonstrated in the Harry Potter movie. In the end, you distort and destroy any remnant of true Christian faith. For our God cannot be molded to match pagan gods.
Sure He can. C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien both wrote extensively in alternate worlds where pagan gods served as representatives of Christianity.
And you'd have more of a foot to stand on here if Harry Potter even involved pagan gods... which it doesn't. Whoops?

“For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters,
And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water." Jeremiah 2:1
You know, you spend an awful lot of time in the Old Testament for someone trying to convince us that Harry Potter is anti-Christ. You're also choosing a lot of verses which are powerful but mean little except for "don't accept idolatry", and thus are fine space-fillers. I don't doubt this is intentional, and if so it's loathsome. Anything which is successful and powerful becomes an idol. The answer is to reinforce the teachings of Christ, not to tear down anything outside of the Bible.

God tells us to "train up a child in the way He should go." It starts with teaching them God's truths and training them all day long to see reality from His, not the world's perspective.
The problem is that He gave exact perspective on the goings-on of two thousand years ago. Modern events have taken turns that Biblical culture couldn't have even predicted, and it requires worldly philosophy and logics and perspective to extract a meaningful Christian answer to most modern problems and conflicts. Dismissing 'the world's perspective' is dangerous, because frankly 95% of the Bible does not apply to you in any meaningful way except in a metaphorical capacity, and that metaphor requires exposure to the day to day world. This goes all the way up to the Commandments; tell me you've honestly found a moment in which you would have, less a grounding in Scripture, coveted your neighbor's draft animals, and I will call you a liar.

To succeed, we need to shield them from contrary values until they know His Word and have memorized enough Scriptures to be able to recognize and resist deception. Once they have learned to love what God loves and see from His perspective, they will demonstrate their wisdom by choosing to say "no" to Harry Potter.
Shield them from contrary values? Where the hell did you learn that the truth is so fragile that it needs to be shielded?

“And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up." Deuteronomy 6:6-7
This says "Apply the teachings of God to your everyday life", not "Apply the teachings of God to your everyday life at the exclusion of everything else". It encourages the active use of Biblical values, not wahhabism.

While some argue that Harry Potter and his friends demonstrate friendship, integrity and honesty, they actually model how to lie and steal and get away with it. Their examples only add to the cultural relativism embraced by most children today who are honest when it doesn't cost anything, but who lie and cheat when it serves their purpose.
Cultural relativism? You sure are quick with the charming turns of phrase. But I'm too tired for more straw men. I'll just let your words speak for themselves here.


"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased [depraved] mind, to do those things which are not fitting.... They are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." Romans 1:28-32
So keep God close and you're all right. Sensible enough. Not a denunciation of Harry Potter or witchcraft or anything like it. You're wrong, your knowledge of both Harry Potter and Christian teachings on witchcraft are derived from hearsay, and also, you are a heretic.

Congratulations: you have wasted an hour and a half of my time and I wager at least a sixth that much of everyone else's, and you've managed to prove nothing except that you are simultaneously underinformed and full of yourself.

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Originally written by Drakefyre:

Alec - talking about Maus?

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