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AuthorTopic: Were we prepared?
Agent
Member # 4506
Profile Homepage #50
quote:
Originally written by Formerly I:

On the former topic: Poor English people... Well, it's your own fault for raping countries of their resources and installing puppet dictators. (Then again, it's not like we in the US didn't do it either).
Hey! We don't do that! *loks behind himself* (honest...)

:D

- Archmagus Micael

BTW, I made this Topic to talk about wether London was prepared for the bombings or not - not to talk about religion! (Thats what schools for!)

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Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
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We agree on the God. We disagree on what His last big message was.

The Crusaders didn't follow Ben's denomination. They were Catholic (before it was called Catholic, maybe, but it was the Church).

—Alorael, who sees an opposite problem. There's too much (unverifiable) evidence for every religion. And remember that any system of logic can be made self-consistent with the proper assumptions.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #52
It takes an astounding ignorance of history and theology to claim that Islam and Christianity are unrelated. And it takes a regular, but still saddening, ignorance of the way the other half lives to labor under the delusion that hardcore Christianity and hardcore Islam work in divergent ways or to divergent ends.

The 'big Three' all worship the same God. (Although in terms of numbers, it's certainly unfair to the Hindus and the Buddhists to refer to Judaism as 'big'.) No, it isn't like the Sunnis, Shiites, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Hasidic, and Reformists, who all are avowedly the same religion but differ over post-scriptural ceremony or scriptural interpretation. But they all believe in an all-powerful God who created the heavens and the earth.

Islam holds that God's might is incalculable, God's presence is all-encompassing, and that man is prostrate before God whether he likes to be or not; spiritual and social purity are to be striven for.

Christianity holds that God is omnipotent and holds a source of salvation from the natural sin of mankind, either in the form of worship or social doctrine.

And Judaism sees God as an obscure figure who exists and exercises absolute power, but has different rules for different people and applies a particularly rigorous set to its followers.

In the first and second, God is a transnatural force, capable of bending the world to his will. In the third, God is basically an embodiment of The Way Things Are. Islam and Christianity have a Hell, although no one is undisputably sure on how you get to either; Judaism doesn't have a Hell, and going against the natural order just makes you a bad Jew, with the social stigmas and personal handicaps that such a state entails.

The first two proselytize, Judaism doesn't. Islam and Judaism both have a similar sense of community, which Christianity tends to lack. ('Christendom' as a social concept exists mostly in history and the fevered imaginings of fundamentalists.)

But the structure of the three, along with the scripture and doctrine, is extremely closely linked. That is explained either by God telling people about the same thing and them getting it various degrees of wrong, or by a gradual process of plagarism from whoever wrote down the Torah to whoever wrote down the Qu'ran.

[ Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:08: Message edited by: George A. Custer & The SE Party ]

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Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
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Profile #53
quote:
Originally written by Formerly I:

On the former topic: Poor English people... Well, it's your own fault for raping countries of their resources and installing puppet dictators. (Then again, it's not like we in the US didn't do it either).

Right, blame it on the victims. How insensitive.

On religion in general: It's quite regrettable that people can get tied up in this sort of scam. There is no evidence that any religion is valid. Sure, miracles can happen, but I'm just of the opinion that they were simple luck.

You're as welcome to your opinion as religious people are to ours. There certainly is evidence that religion is valid - the question is not whether it's there, but whether it's enough.

If religon was truly rational, people would think things through before going out to slaughter people in the name of a God who, if they're reading their religious text right, expressly told them not to kill. Or who told them not to drink, and then had them perform a ritual based on it.

If you were truly rational you'd know that a) most people do think things through first and b) the majority of us don't agree with the actions and opinions of the few you have chosen to represent the rest of us. From what you've said you seem to pin more violent intentions on religion than are actually rooted in it. You are right to wish for more open-mindedness among the religious, of course, but remember, improvement begins at home.


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Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 5814
Profile #54
quote:
Originally written by Lady Davida:

quote:
Originally written by Formerly I:

On the former topic: Poor English people... Well, it's your own fault for raping countries of their resources and installing puppet dictators. (Then again, it's not like we in the US didn't do it either).

Right, blame it on the victims. How insensitive.

On religion in general: It's quite regrettable that people can get tied up in this sort of scam. There is no evidence that any religion is valid. Sure, miracles can happen, but I'm just of the opinion that they were simple luck.

You're as welcome to your opinion as religious people are to ours. There certainly is evidence that religion is valid - the question is not whether it's there, but whether it's enough.

If religon was truly rational, people would think things through before going out to slaughter people in the name of a God who, if they're reading their religious text right, expressly told them not to kill. Or who told them not to drink, and then had them perform a ritual based on it.

If you were truly rational you'd know that a) most people do think things through first and b) the majority of us don't agree with the actions and opinions of the few you have chosen to represent the rest of us. From what you've said you seem to pin more violent intentions on religion than are actually rooted in it. You are right to wish for more open-mindedness among the religious, of course, but remember, improvement begins at home.

1) Who are the victims? The innocent English civilians? Yes. But so are the entire nations which were controlled under the British Empire. Having been to both England and Iran, I can tell you that Iran is much more worse off for its conflicts with Britain. Then again, that's like holding the child responsible for the parent's wrongdoings. In addition to being along the same train of thought as that of a terrorist, it's also quite cruel. I retract that statement.

2) The fact that most cultures have developed some religion or another, and the fact that they're all as valid as each other, made me sever all ties I had with the Seventh-Day Adventist church. I chose not to endorse something I couldn't defend, and if you could please explain to me why you believe in your faith and I could not dispute the argument, I might re-convert and would definitely respect you much more.
Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #55
But can you defend what you believe now? Nothing is truly proovable(sp?). It all depends on what you initially assume to be true...

[ Saturday, July 09, 2005 18:16: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ]

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Lt. Sullust
Cogito Ergo Sum
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Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 73
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I, personally, have found in my experience that not only that no religion currently in existance can be proved absolutely without wild assumptions, but also that atheism is just as unprovable as any of those religions. Therefore, I try to simply hold ideas, not beliefs. I like ideas because an idea can change and evolve with new information, new data, new experiences. Beliefs are much harder to change.

As a side note, if this thread degenerates into a flame war and is not redirected, I just made a new "l0xx0r plz" image that I want to use.

[ Saturday, July 09, 2005 18:28: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ]

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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #57
quote:
Originally written by The Almighty Doer of Stuff:

I try to simply hold ideas, not beliefs. I like ideas because an idea can change and evolve with new information, new data, new experiences. Beliefs are much harder to change.
Someone's been watching the movie Dogma. :P

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #58
I tried to find the exact quote, but gave up. :)
Sure, the idea may have been a main focus of a movie written and directed by Silent Bob, but that doesn't make it any less valid.

[ Saturday, July 09, 2005 18:36: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ]

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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 5814
Profile #59
Beliefs are your thoughs on the world in general and all the useless things associated with it. Ideas are thoughts which have a chance of developing into something more. Roughly, anyway.

Atheism is the best course of action because all other religions rely on something outherworldly or unexplainable.
Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #60
I'm really not saying that there is no similarity between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. There is.

That said, any religion not following the teachings of the Bible and inventing their own little version, such as the Koran, is human-invented and not acceptable to Christians. True good translations of the Bible generally make what it is trying to say easier to understand by a certain group of people but do not purposely alter the main points presented.

Jesus was not just a prophet, but God in the human form. Mohammed was the guy who decided to make his own Bible and therefore his new religion. Therefore, Jesus is God and God's Son at the same time. As already mentions, there is two elements of the Trinity.

Praying to saints is outrageous. They can't help you. What's so hard about just praying to God himself? That's one reason why Jesus died on the cross. God will be happy for your prayers.

Davida, I'm not sure about being able to access my E-mail from here, being away from home, but I'll try here.

EDIT: Got your message and replied.

[ Sunday, July 10, 2005 18:31: Message edited by: Mister Maoben ]

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Off With Their Heads
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Profile Homepage #61
quote:
Originally written by Mister Maoben:

Praying to saints is outrageous. They can't help you.
Well, the idea was that they have more direct access to God than you do. It's not the same for a Protestant (since Protestants believe in being able to have a personal relationship with God), but it made sense to medieval Catholics, for whom God was a pretty strange, nebulous being, but for whom several saints were quite familiar the way that a celebrity would be today.

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #62
quote:
Originally written by Mister Maoben:

IThat said, any religion not following the teachings of the Bible and inventing their own little version, such as the Koran, is human-invented and not acceptable to Christians.
A religion that is not Christianity is not Christianity? I can accept that...

quote:
[b]True good translations of the Bible generally make what it is trying to say easier to understand by a certain group of people but do not purposely alter the main points presented.
[/b]

I agree in theory, but since the jury is still out on exactly what the main points presented are, each translation is inherently pushing a perspective.

quote:
Jesus was not just a prophet, but God in the human form.
Alas! Where's Arianism when you need it?

quote:
Mohammed was the guy who decided to make his own Bible and therefore his new religion. Therefore, Jesus is God and God's Son at the same time. As already mentions, there is two elements of the Trinity.
First sentence: A matter of perspective, obviously.

Third sentence: Arianism still makes more sense. Acknowledge that they're two different guys and give the Trinity a hierarchy.

—Alorael, who has contributed nothing except another bunch of large quote blocks and some irreverence.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #63
I'm just saying that practically all the essentials of being a Christian are layed out in the Bible, and you don't need to add on from elsewhere.

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Agent
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You didn't need the Bible anyway. I'm paraphrasing something I read in another thread on these boards, and unfortunately I can't give credit where it's due, when I say that:

You don't need the Bible to know that killing, stealing, and so on are wrong.

Have you ever actually looked at the Bible from the point of view which evaluates its usefulness? Because in the end, it's just a storbook. With a bad plot and no continuity. It might pretend to tell you all sorts of ways to live your life, but the fact is they're either unreasonable, outdated, or common knowledge.
Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #65
quote:
Originally written by Mister Maoben:

Praying to saints is outrageous. They can't help you. What's so hard about just praying to God himself?
Technically, you don't pray to the saints; you ask the saints to pray for you. They're holier than you, so the idea is that their prayers will count more than yours would.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Triad Mage
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Well, they can only become saints if they have miracles attributed to them, so it's not as outrageous as it seems to you.

quote:

That said, any religion not following the teachings of the Bible and inventing their own little version, such as the Koran, is human-invented and not acceptable to Christians.
Muslims and Jews can say equally insulting things to Christians and be just as correct. By 'not acceptable,' what do you mean? Aren't you taught to be loving and accepting of all God's children?

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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
By Committee
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quote:
Originally written by Mister Maoben:

That said, any religion not following the teachings of the Bible...
I thought they were the teachings of Jesus. Are we getting a little idolatrous here, Ben?

Anyone of any faith can make the same claims about Christianity. Militant Jews, for example, could loudly assert that Jesus was a false messiah, and that there's no proof he rose again. Where does that put you?

The Bible has also proven to be an incredibly mutable document over the years, and many, many people had a hand in it. When its most recent incarnation was being debated (by men), there was a lot of controversy as to whether the letters of Paul (which are now pretty widely thought not to have all been written by the same person) should even be included. Likewise, the Coptic Gospel of Thomas was in and out, in and out, until finally it was decided (again, by men) not to be included. Did you know about this? Or are you afraid to pull back the layers of the onion too far? If it's the truth, it can't hurt you, right?

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In simple terms, all three faiths worship the same god, because all three faiths recognize their god as the God of Abraham. That there are so many divisions and sects in each faith just goes to show how imperfect all of them are.

To anyone who believes that his particular version is absolute, and all the rest of us are on a path to hell: how convenient that the absolute truth was right next door to you growing up!
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #68
quote:
Originally written by Formerly I:

On the former topic: Poor English people... Well, it's your own fault for raping countries of their resources and installing puppet dictators. (Then again, it's not like we in the US didn't do it either).
Well, it was their fault for not putting up a good fight to begin with. To the victor, the spoils. You could also just as easily say it was their fault for not finishing the job, so to speak, but then where would that leave us?

[ Monday, July 11, 2005 06:04: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #69
In light of todays events: *BUMP*

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Lt. Sullust
Cogito Ergo Sum
Polaris
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
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First impression: it's possible that the new attacks weren't intended to cause serious injury, and are just meant to keep up the climate of public anxiety for a little longer -- the equivalent of sending envelopes full of talcum powder.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Triad Mage
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It seems as though the train incident today could have been worse if the package had exploded when intended, instead of accidentally.

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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Shaper
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It seems several if not all the devices found have detonated incorrectly. If this was intentional then perhaps Thuryl is correct. If not...

[ Thursday, July 21, 2005 05:40: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ]

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Lt. Sullust
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Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
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It may have just been a very poorly executed copycat attack. Not all bombs go off correctly, all of the time. If one person was responsible for creating the bombs, they could easily have messed something up that would reduce the effectiveness of all of them.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #74
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Mister Maoben:

Praying to saints is outrageous. They can't help you. What's so hard about just praying to God himself?
Technically, you don't pray to the saints; you ask the saints to pray for you. They're holier than you, so the idea is that their prayers will count more than yours would.

Note that saints were just regular people that made us of God's power to do their miracles. They were no more holy that we were. God will hear all prayers, whether they come from a saint or not.

quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:
Muslims and Jews can say equally insulting things to Christians and be just as correct. By 'not acceptable,' what do you mean? Aren't you taught to be loving and accepting of all God's children?

Their religion is not compatible to what God says. They are still acceptable to God, given they turn to him.

quote:
Originally written by Drew:
I thought they were the teachings of Jesus. Are we getting a little idolatrous here, Ben?

The teachings of the Bible include the teachings of Jesus.

Anyone of any faith can make the same claims about Christianity. Militant Jews, for example, could loudly assert that Jesus was a false messiah, and that there's no proof he rose again. Where does that put you?

In a position to point out that the Bible itself says that Jesus is the Messiah.

The Bible has also proven to be an incredibly mutable document over the years, and many, many people had a hand in it. When its most recent incarnation was being debated (by men), there was a lot of controversy as to whether the letters of Paul (which are now pretty widely thought not to have all been written by the same person) should even be included. Likewise, the Coptic Gospel of Thomas was in and out, in and out, until finally it was decided (again, by men) not to be included. Did you know about this? Or are you afraid to pull back the layers of the onion too far? If it's the truth, it can't hurt you, right?

I think the books to be included in the Bible were chosen according to the amount of applicable content they contained. For example, if the four gospels had been essentially alike, only one or two would have been included, but each gospel, while talking in the same time period, has its own unique stories and content.

I'm not sure exactly why some books were excluded, but I'm of the disposition that those not included were more of a waste of paper to publish, if you can see what I mean.

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In simple terms, all three faiths worship the same god, because all three faiths recognize their god as the God of Abraham. That there are so many divisions and sects in each faith just goes to show how imperfect all of them are.

To anyone who believes that his particular version is absolute, and all the rest of us are on a path to hell: how convenient that the absolute truth was right next door to you growing up!


You have a point there, and there are many different forms of Christianity with different requirements and traditions. However, I think many churches get so caught up in these traditions that they lose sight of what Christianity is all about: the only way to get to heaven is to accept Jesus and be made holy by him.


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