Were we prepared?

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Author	Topic: Were we prepared?
Lt. Sullust Shaper Member # 32	written Friday, July 22 2005 04:50 Profile #100 Indeed, I think they are all equally wrong... :P -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Drew By Committee Member # 4233	written Friday, July 22 2005 05:16 Profile #101 quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: What is so hard to grasp about the fact that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God? It's not that it's not graspable, it's that it's not acceptable. Accepting that faiths other than one's own share any common aspects is to concede some of one's authority on "truth," which isn't very comfortable for some people. Really, it just amounts to politics. Well, politics and a fear of uncertainty. [ Friday, July 22, 2005 05:22: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 \| Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Friday, July 22 2005 05:49 Profile #102 The problem with talking about evidence for divine acts is that making wide enough allowances for the ability of omnipotence to hide itself undermines the whole notion of evidence. Logically the point is irreproachable; practically, it makes the whole discussion pointless. Everything cuts both ways. A scriptural text that seems bizarre can be evidence that the Bible is unreliable, or evidence that it is undistorted by redaction. A story that seems to have a profound moral can be evidence of divine inspiration, or an indication that the story was invented to illustrate a point. The only thing that seems unambiguous to me is wisdom. Unverifiable accounts of events are always open to doubt, but a profound idea is a profound idea. I have found some ideas I consider profound in the Bhagavad Gita, in the Koran, and in various secular and scientific texts; but to me there have been more in the Bible. Possibly that's just because I was raised to look for them there. What constitutes a profound idea is of course pretty subjective; deciding that something is profound is already the next thing to religious faith. To me it seems to be more an exercise in pattern recognition than in logic. Jesus himself addressed these issues, it seems, because the NT gospels frequently record him complaining about people's demand for miracles as demonstrations of authority. They consistently show him as a very reluctant miracle-worker, who seems to have felt that miracles were a great obstacle to real faith. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
I'll Steal Your Toast Agent Member # 2210	written Friday, July 22 2005 06:08 Profile #103 How amusing. The bible is about how to live. Ordinary people may look for divine acts, but are ordinary and thus may be inspired by miracles but mostly are not going to do them. There is an overwhelming focus on whether a person believes in x or y, rather than lives by what the bible, etc. teaches. Thus, you get many people who believe in the bible, but cannot live even remotely by what it teaches. Somehow, a person is going to be saved by believing in Jesus or God, or something else and think they have a free lunch card which says I believe in this so I can do anything I want. Very few people can make the bible alive and live by it. I admire those who can, because it takes tremendous discipline. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 \| Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Frozen Feet Infiltrator Member # 4248	written Friday, July 22 2005 06:21 Profile #104 I would have much to say to this topic, but sadly I'm not good enough in english to express my thoughts :( . ... but I can write it in finnish if you want to :P . -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 \| Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Coronach Apprentice Member # 6009	written Friday, July 22 2005 06:43 Profile #105 Here's an article with a modern archaeological take on the old testament. Just thought I'd throw it into the melting pot of conversation going on here. link It's long, but goes into reasonable detail. I'm slightly uncertain as to exactly how many archaeologists are in agreement on the subject, but I find it's certainly an interesting and worthwhile read. Posts: 18 \| Registered: Friday, June 24 2005 07:00
Sturg Master Member # 4614	written Friday, July 22 2005 08:36 Profile Homepage #106 quote: Originally written by Frozen Feet: I would have much to say to this topic, but sadly I'm not good enough in english to express my thoughts :( . ... but I can write it in finnish if you want to :P . Go ahead if you want. I can always use something like this to get a pretty good idea of what you said. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 \| Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, July 22 2005 08:42 Profile Homepage #107 quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: The majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls were written on animal skins, not parchment. Drakey, you may want to look up what parchment is. Unless you meant that they were written on straight, untreated skin, which seems almost impossible. Coronach: that's an interesting article. I know there is little agreement, though; I'd like to hear some of the other sides. The most damning point seems to be the silence of the Egyptian texts on the escape of the Jews — a major slave revolt (like the Spartacus one) would've dominated any records the Egyptians kept during that time. And it's pretty rare for a whole group of slaves to rise up and then run away; normally they try to overthrow the government (again, like Spartacus). To anyone who can read the OT in Hebrew: is there any sense that the language comes from different time periods? Does it have more archaic and less archaic parts? Greek prior to the Hellenistic period can be localized in space and time pretty obviously based on minor linguistic differences, so I'm wondering if the Hebrew shows any plurality of dialect or if it was actually standardized at some point. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Friday, July 22 2005 09:33 Profile Homepage #108 Well, it seems that I have goofed, but I blame my source :P Jews tend not to see the OT as how to live our lives, but the Talmud more fills that role for Chasids. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Friday, July 22 2005 12:26 Profile Homepage #109 I beg to differ. Jews do see the OT as the guide to life. Judaism is, if anything, an extremely legally focused religion. The letter of the law (or the Law, if you like) is paramount but easily circumvented; the spirit is left to the Talmud. This isn't a good description at all, but now I can't think of a better way to say it. —Alorael, who has no idea about the Old Testament's language(s). He believes it's mostly Hebrew with some Aramaic tossed in, but that could easily be after several hundred years of translation from full Aramaic or from something else entirely. Without original documents back that far, it's arguable whether anyone knows. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, July 22 2005 12:32 Profile Homepage #110 Oh, speaking of which: the most reliable estimates I've heard put most of the Dead Sea scrolls at 1st c. AD. A few will push it back as far as 1st c. BC or slightly earlier, but middle of the third century BC is unlikely. This in response to Gizmo's statement a while back. It seemed wrong at the time, but I wasn't able to dredge up a memory of the actual date until just now. (Wikipedia's page on them says something to this effect.) EDIT: Oh, and another thing: it's not so much the copying errors between whenever gospels were finalized in the second half of the first century or the first half of the second that are troubling. It's the process of revision that could have gone on between the events in the 20's and 30's and the final written versions in the 80's, 90's, or later. Similarly for the OT, except much, much earlier. Accidental revision is not the issue nearly as much as deliberate revision. [ Friday, July 22, 2005 12:41: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Zeviz Nuke and Pave Member # 24	written Friday, July 22 2005 15:30 Profile Homepage #111 Kel, I have a whole textbook about history and the Hebrew Bible, so I can look up details for you when I get home. If I remember correctly, various books of it supposedly were compiled between 700BC and 200BC. However, there were different versions (based on local variations in legends) in different regions and the Torah as we have it today became the only authorized version only with the start of rabinic Jewdaism in 1st century AD. PS to clarify what Alorael said, all branches of Jewdaism hold Tanach (Old Testament) as the sourse of all their laws. However, interpretations differ widely and you can get anything from ultra-Orthodox who don't use electricity on Saturday to Reconstructionists who allow gay marriage all based on different interpretation of the same text. EDIT: Here is the quote from the textbook. I think this is what you were asking about: quote: The literary history of the Hebrew Bible is divisible into three partially overlapping phases: 1. The stage of the formation of the separate literary units, oral and written, that eventually became a part of the Hebrew Bible, from about 1200 B.C.E. to 100 B.C.E. 2. The stage of the final formation of the Hebrew Bible as an authoritative collection of writing in three parts (Law, Prophets, Writings), beginning ca. 400 B.C.E. with the Law as the kernel, later supplemented by the Prophets, and culminating ca. 90 C.E. with delimitation of the boundaries of the Writings. 3. The stage of the preservation and transmission of the Hebrew Bible, both in the original tongue and in translations into other languages, which involved two phases: a. The period when the finalization of the contents of the Hebrew Bible was still in process, ca. 400 B.C.E. to 90 C.E. b. The period when the Hebrew Bible had reached definitive form, from 90 C.E. to the present. If you want to read the whole book, it's "The Hebrew Bible, A Socio-Literary Introduction" by Norman K. Gottwald. PS According to this book, Dead Sea scrolls were written during the period from 150 B.C.E. to 70 C.E. [ Friday, July 22, 2005 17:48: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Saturday, July 23 2005 01:45 Profile Homepage #112 quote: Originally written by Electorael: I beg to differ. Jews do see the OT as the guide to life. Judaism is, if anything, an extremely legally focused religion. The letter of the law (or the Law, if you like) is paramount but easily circumvented; the spirit is left to the Talmud. This isn't a good description at all, but now I can't think of a better way to say it. —Alorael, who has no idea about the Old Testament's language(s). He believes it's mostly Hebrew with some Aramaic tossed in, but that could easily be after several hundred years of translation from full Aramaic or from something else entirely. Without original documents back that far, it's arguable whether anyone knows. But only really Leviticus. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Saturday, July 23 2005 09:33 Profile Homepage #113 Okay, yes. Jews mainly see the parts of the Old Testament that state rules to be obeyed as rules to be obeyed. The parts about history and dead people are seen more as descriptions of history and dead people, which can be very interesting, but tend not to be relevant unless your life revolves more than is usual around, say, leading your people out of bondage and into a new land. —Alorael, who advises that you not let the rocks hit you on your way out and, for the love of God, don't hit the rocks on your way out! Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Sturg Master Member # 4614	written Saturday, July 23 2005 09:58 Profile Homepage #114 But many of the rules of Leviticus were rules set for the Israelites back then. Nowadays, Jesus's death has done away with the need for constant sacrifices of animals and such. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 \| Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Saturday, July 23 2005 10:22 Profile #115 Just to be on the safe side I continue to sacrifice animals. Just yesterday I got a phone call (new method of communicating with God) ordering me to sacrifice yet another goat in order to appease Posideon. Apparently goat blood calms the ocean waves. This is three goats in three days, and the swells are still marching on shore. I am beginning to lose faith. Perhaps I need to step up the value of the sacrifice. this message sponsored by peta and the animal rescue league Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Sunday, July 24 2005 07:28 Profile #116 Maybe your goats had blemishes. This is apparently important. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
I'll Steal Your Toast Agent Member # 2210	written Sunday, July 24 2005 07:44 Profile #117 You didn't build a tall enough pyre, you must use cedar and oak and douse it with urns of red wine and the finest olive oil not to mention a little bit of salt. Don't forget to throw in a few potatoes wrapped in tin foil. The gods expect you to feast when you are done. [ Sunday, July 24, 2005 07:45: Message edited by: I'll Steal Your Toast ] -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 \| Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Sunday, July 24 2005 10:00 Profile Homepage #118 Also remember that the gods are a contrary bunch. Your sacrifice may just have reminded Poseidon tha you exist and that he doesn't like you. I suggest sacrificing to other gods too, just in case, and asking them to get in Poseidon's way. —Alorael, who is positive that all of the rules of Leviticus were set out for the Jews way back when, and theologians have since decided than animal sacrifices are unnecessary anyway. Jesus' birth has absolutely no religious significance to the Jews, Chasidic and otherwise, for reasons that should be obvious even if you disagree. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Sunday, July 24 2005 11:53 Profile #119 The goats were remarkably blemish free, but they definitely do NOT appreciate being shaved. The neighbors would have complained about the burnt hair smell though. I managed a smallish pyre, with cedar, oak, fir, maple, an old deck chair, and a small family of mice. The red wine was added, but I lack urns, perhaps jugs are good enough? I used extra virgin olive oil, because I know the gods liked their virgins. To ignite it I used blasting caps and generous lengths of fuse, and after that failed to do anything but demolish the mice nest I resorted to naptha soaked incense cedar. Aside from humans, are there any other prefered animals to sacrifice? I'll do the lamb if I have to, but they are even worse about the shaving procedure. After re-reading toast's experience-based knowledge, I realize I forgot to add potatoes. #&@$. Well, I'll have to start all over again then. No wonder the swells keep getting bigger! this message sponsored the tuna carkers #64 - ilwaco division* Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Zeviz Nuke and Pave Member # 24	written Sunday, July 24 2005 13:33 Profile Homepage #120 quote: Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon: ... Aside from humans, are there any other prefered animals to sacrifice?... Try a red heifer. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
I'll Steal Your Toast Agent Member # 2210	written Sunday, July 24 2005 14:12 Profile #121 Horses are very popular, you get to ride them in the afterlife. Cows are good too. But, the best are squirrels-- they bring you your nuts. [ Sunday, July 24, 2005 14:12: Message edited by: I'll Steal Your Toast ] -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 \| Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Sturg Master Member # 4614	written Sunday, July 24 2005 14:44 Profile Homepage #122 quote: Originally written by Zeviz: quote: Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon: ... Aside from humans, are there any other prefered animals to sacrifice?... Try a red heifer. A young bull was mentioned quite a few times in Leviticus, and they don't have any wool. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 \| Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Sunday, July 24 2005 15:33 Profile #123 It turns out I had already appeased Posideon. Unfortunately Loki had overheard the prayers and felt like having a little fun at my expense. The buoy data I had been accessing was being messed with, and today the ocean had 2 foot swells and no wind. Most unlike the forecast and "current" bouy data. I can't sacrifice the bull until next month anyways, but it will happen. Until then I'll just have to gamble that Posideon remains happy and Loki doesn't tinker with the fuel gauge in the boat. this message sponsored by the coyote Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Sturg Master Member # 4614	written Sunday, July 24 2005 16:24 Profile Homepage #124 Maybe Posideon demands the sacrifice of your boat itself. Or for you to move to the highlands. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 \| Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00